SIS (dream program, no $) or Milano The New School (new program, 40%)?

[tkovach05]

I am beginning my MA in Environmental Policy, preferably with an international focus, this fall. I applied for the Global Environmental Politics program at SIS, the new Environmental Policy & Sustainability Management program at Milano, and the Ms in Global Affairs at NYU SCPS. I'm not really considering NYU that strongly any more, so it's really down to the latter two.

SIS: This is my dream program - an enviro policy program with an international perspective. I'm very interested in environmental security and South Asian studies, and Dr. Ken Conca at SIS literally wrote the book on environmental peacekeeping. School is also based in DC, so I can intern with environmental NGOs, and SIS operates in a building designed by William McDonough. But alas, no funding. Also, based on athejr FAQs, you can't even apply for a TA position if they don't explicitly invite you to do so.

Milano: This program is good and has a strong focus on urban studies, which is a positive. However, it also has more of a focus on organizational management and is brand new - I would be in the first class. Faculty is also not as great as SIS, though Dr. Clinton does know his stuff. But it is located in NYC, which provides a greater quality of life and internship opportunities, and they are offering me a 40% merit scholarship.

Any thoughts? I would like to ago to SIS, but I need to justify taking out the loans to cover the difference (n.b. I came out of undergrad with $45k in debt).

[polarscribe]

Your student loan debt is already on the high end of what's manageable. If you have to borrow everything for two years at SIS, what are you looking at, $70k added to that? I think you need to go with the most cost-effective option.

Edited March 20, 2011 by polarscribe

[chaospaladin]

I am beginning my MA in Environmental Policy, preferably with an international focus, this fall. I applied for the Global Environmental Politics program at SIS, the new Environmental Policy & Sustainability Management program at Milano, and the Ms in Global Affairs at NYU SCPS. I'm not really considering NYU that strongly any more, so it's really down to the latter two.

SIS: This is my dream program - an enviro policy program with an international perspective. I'm very interested in environmental security and South Asian studies, and Dr. Ken Conca at SIS literally wrote the book on environmental peacekeeping. School is also based in DC, so I can intern with environmental NGOs, and SIS operates in a building designed by William McDonough. But alas, no funding. Also, based on athejr FAQs, you can't even apply for a TA position if they don't explicitly invite you to do so.

Milano: This program is good and has a strong focus on urban studies, which is a positive. However, it also has more of a focus on organizational management and is brand new - I would be in the first class. Faculty is also not as great as SIS, though Dr. Clinton does know his stuff. But it is located in NYC, which provides a greater quality of life and internship opportunities, and they are offering me a 40% merit scholarship.

Any thoughts? I would like to ago to SIS, but I need to justify taking out the loans to cover the difference (n.b. I came out of undergrad with $45k in debt).

What does "n.b." mean?

[tkovach05]

SIS pegs their estimated cost of attendance at about $45k, and they are only providing $21k in federal loan eligibility. I have inquired with admissions about TA opportunities and am awaiting their response, but that may not be an option. Milano has not put a formal number on COA yet, but it should be comparable to SIS. Either way the cost of living numbers will go up for me significantly, since I am coming from Cleveland (which is a very affordable city).

And n.b. means nota bene (note well); sorry I took 4 years of Latin in high school.

Edited March 20, 2011 by tkovach05

[polarscribe]

So for SIS, you would be borrowing effectively $100,000, plus your $45,000 in undergraduate debt?

Your monthly payments would be around $2,000 for the next 10 years. Even if you got a $50k job out of college, fully half of your pre-tax income would be paying down debt. Totally unaffordable and not a realistic option unless you really enjoy destitution. Remember, all of that debt is nondischargeable and will follow you around the rest of your life if you don't pay it off on time.

I am in a situation where I may have to skip my "dream school," too. Yes, it can be painful. But think of all the fun things you'd have to forgo over the next decade (or longer?) because you have to put such a big chunk of your income toward paying off student loans. Forget vacations, new cars, anything - you won't be able to afford them, even on a middle-class salary.

Edited March 20, 2011 by polarscribe

[D-Lux]

So for SIS, you would be borrowing effectively $100,000, plus your $45,000 in undergraduate debt?

Your monthly payments would be around $2,000 for the next 10 years. Even if you got a $50k job out of college, fully half of your pre-tax income would be paying down debt. Totally unaffordable and not a realistic option unless you really enjoy destitution.

Actually, if you have a $50K job and get on the Income Based Repayment plan, you're looking at payments of around $420/month. If you work in the public or non-profit sector for the next ten years, the remaining balance of your loan is forgiven after the 120th consecutive payment (Stafford and Grad Plus loans only.) Your payments will increase proportionately as your salary increases, but would remain at what I consider to be a manageable amount.

[polarscribe]

That's a lot of ifs.

Not to mention that a significant portion of those loans ($45,000) apparently will not be federal, hence will not be eligible for either IBR or forgiveness, and will have to be fully paid.

If you pay IBR and don't work in a public service job, you'll be paying federal loans off for the next 25 years. Want to be in student debt until you're almost 50?

Edited March 20, 2011 by polarscribe

[D-Lux]

That's a lot of ifs.

Not to mention that a significant portion of those loans ($45,000) apparently will not be federal, hence will not be eligible for the program and will have to be fully paid.

The $21K is for Stafford loans. Grad Plus loans are available to make up the difference, albeit at a higher interest rate. Both are federal loans eligible for loan forgiveness.

The only 'ifs' I see are whether they get a job at all and what sector that job is in. The idea is that you're taking a lower salary for a public service job than you would be capable of earning in the private sector.

Even if someone with tkovach05's debt profile ends up in an entry-level position at a non-profit making $35k with no raise for ten years (which is unlikely), they'll only pay $230/month ($27k over ten years) before the remaining balance is forgiven (not counting any private loans that aren't eligible.)

Edited March 20, 2011 by D-Lux

[polarscribe]

It is absurd to borrow close to $150,000 with the hope that you can get a bunch of it forgiven. If they can't, for whatever reason, they're stuck with an insane amount of debt. The choice of potential employers would be constrained by the need to be in a government/non-profit job to qualify, and may have to take and stay in sub-optimal positions with poor pay/advancement opportunities. Quit and go broke paying loans or stay and go nowhere? Great choice.

Meanwhile, they can get a perfectly good education for way less money somewhere else. So why dig the hole?

Edited March 20, 2011 by polarscribe

[chaospaladin]

Does SIS mean School of International Service? I also agree with polarscribe.

Edited March 20, 2011 by chaospaladin

[waddle]

Does SIS mean School of International Service? I also agree with polarscribe.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=American+University+SIS (Yes.)

[D-Lux]

It is absurd to borrow close to $150,000 with the hope that you can get a bunch of it forgiven. If they can't, for whatever reason, they're stuck with an insane amount of debt. The choice of potential employers would be constrained by the need to be in a government/non-profit job to qualify, and may have to take and stay in sub-optimal positions with poor pay/advancement opportunities. Quit and go broke paying loans or stay and go nowhere? Great choice.

Meanwhile, they can get a perfectly good education for way less money somewhere else. So why dig the hole?

These are both $1300/credit professional degree programs located in very expensive cities (NYC and DC). I'm also accepted at both schools under similar circumstances. A 40% scholarship at Milano amounts to a 20K savings over SIS, but the cost of living in NYC is even higher than DC. That leaves $30-$35K per year (including cost of living estimates) that would be paid for with student loans, which still puts their total debt over $100K for the "cheaper" option. When you get to that kind of money, I would be looking at the public service loan forgiveness program anyway, whether I owe $100K or $130K (and based on the field and their interest in interning at NGOs during school, they're likely already focused on public/non-profit jobs.)

Meanwhile, you're looking at a different kind of degree at rural state universities. You could rent a three bedroom house all to yourself in Moscow, ID for the same price they would have to pay for a tiny SHARED apartment in Brooklyn or Queens (forget even trying to live in Manhattan anywhere near the school unless you can get into student housing.) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you wouldn't be willing to take on the amount of loans required to attend EITHER program. This is fine. One has to weigh their career aspirations and future lifestyle plans against the relative advantages to be gained from the programs they're considering along with the amount of debt they're willing to accrue. But not everyone wants or needs a new car (especially if they plan to stay in NYC or DC proper) just like not everyone wants or appreciates the city lifestyle and the high cost of living that comes with it.

For someone who's going into a public service career anyway and for whom either option will to put them in six figure student loan debt, I'm going to say that they will HAVE to use the IBR payment plan and should strongly consider the public service loan forgiveness option either way and, as such, should go to whichever program better justifies doing so. This is probably not a good option for someone who wants to live more of a rural lifestyle where wages are lower and job opportunities more limited, even though the cost of living can be much cheaper.

Edited March 21, 2011 by D-Lux

[polarscribe]

Job opportunities in my field are far more limited in urban areas than rural ones.

Anyone who already has close to $50,000 in student loan debt is already saddling themselves with an extreme load. Tripling it is, in my opinion, flat-out nuts.

I will probably be eligible for the PSLF too, given my work for a federal agency. But what happens if that falls through? What if I have to change my plans? Given what the Republicans want to do with government, federal/non-profit jobs are perhaps the most vulnerable right now. I don't think anyone should borrow $150,000 on the assumption that they will be able to find and hold a public service job for 10 years. What if that doesn't work out? You end up paying off student loans well into middle age. I don't even want to go there. Borrowed under $17k for undergrad and the goal is zero loans for graduate. Pay it off and get out from under debt.

Edited March 21, 2011 by polarscribe

[chaospaladin]

My goal is similar to polarscribe. I'm $9,900 in loans right now and I might take $5,000 or so next year for loans and I don't plan on getting any loans for graduate school.

[tkovach05]

I've more or less sat on the sidelines and allowed this to unfold as it would, but I feel the need to interject here. First, to clarify, I am male, so use masculine pronouns from this point forward. Secondly, I suppose that I deserve the somewhat sarcastic tone to some of the posts, as my verbiage did come off as a little wide eyed and naive.

I am not trying to find a reason to choose American because it is my "dream" program; I should have worded that more artfully. It would have been more appropriate to say that the GEP masters is the right program for me. My real interest & passion lies in the convergence between environmental degradation/climate change and international relations/global security/human development. This is what American's program covers - it is the Global Environmental Policy program and has courses that specifically address environmental security & environmental security issues in South Asia (the region that interests me the most). In addition, the professor whom I mentioned, Dr. Ken Conca, is one of the intellectual leaders of the niche concept of environmental peacekeeping (the notion that groups that may otherwise be adversarial can reach an understanding by working together on common environmental challenges); this is what I referenced when I said he literally wrote the book on it - he edited & contributed to a 2002 text titled Environmental Peacemaking. I have come to regard this theory highly and hope to either use it while working for an environmental NGO or IO, or start my own NGO to utilize it. I have no intention of working in the public sector; I currently work on energy efficiency & sustainability issues at a small business organization/chamber of commerce, and I am not a fan.

I am well aware of the risks associated with taking on additional debt, but as was already noted, the debt differential between American & Milano (even with the scholarship included), will not be as significant as it might appear. And I appreciate D-Lux for pointing out the cost of living differential & urban components here. I plan on living abroad, at least for a few years, after finishing my degree (Dr. Conca has worked closely with a prof at Uppsala University in Sweden, and I would love to research with him there, as Swedish schools are free, even to international students), so that should address your travel concerns. And regarding new cars - I currently own a car and can't wait to sell it. I live within a 10-minute bike ride from my office, but Cleveland has been destroyed by suburban sprawl, so it is very difficult to get around here without owning a car. I did not choose my grad schools like many students typically do (i.e. choose the program, then find the right school). I chose the cities I would want to live in, then found good schools with programs that fit into my area of interest.

New York & DC were my top choices because of the large number of NGOs focusing on environmental & international issues, their size & ease of access, and the fact that I could live in the city without needing a car (this is definitely more so in NYC than DC though). I want density, regardless of the high cost of living associated with it. I could have chosen to apply to Indiana University or the University of Washington, both of which have great enviro policy programs. But I wanted to live in a large city where I would have a plethora of organizations for which to work and/or intern while in school. And the $8,000 a year that I will save by ditching my car can certainly go a long way towards offsetting some of that cost of living hike and the associated student loans.

I know that there are a lot of things about Milano that I will really like. It is located in Union Square (Greenwich Village), possibly the most appealing neighborhood in the most appealing dense urban center in America. The atmosphere and culture are right up my alley. There is a strong focus on student interaction & experiential learning, which is great. But at the same time, the program does not check off all the points that American's does. While I can take classes in international affairs and there is an Institute on China & India, there is little, if any, focus on the international relations & security implication of environmental issues. The program also has more of a focus on organizational management & change, whereas American is tilted more towards policy and research. Finally, the shear newness of the program is somewhat disconcerting. Milano does not have the breadth of course options and research focuses that SIS does; the program has simply not grown and matured to that level yet. The New York State Dept. of Education didn't even formally approve it until January, so they couldn't hire assistant professors until just recently. These factors need to be taken into account.

All of this being said, I am still waiting to hear on a couple of issues that could be the deciding factors. I have inquired about job placement rates, internship track records, breakdowns of their COAs, and opportunities to get TA or RA positions. Obviously I cannot make an informed decision without hearing back on these. I appreciate the input, but I am not in a position where I can opt to not incur upwards of $40-50 in debt. I could apply to Cleveland State and probably go for free or very nearly free, but I will not have the opportunities that I will get in DC or New York. To be perfectly honest I would have no problem living in a 500 square foot, one bedroom apartment and riding my bike & the subway for the next 25 years; that's what I was planning on doing anyways. That's what I want to do.

[tkovach05]

I also should have mentioned that wherever I go, I will be going with my girlfriend, who will need to find a job for at least the next year (before starting a grad program of her own). And she would probably like me to go to American, as she would rather live & work in DC (more organizations in international development).

[thesnout]

My only advice is to take on the debt load you know you can handle. It's impossible to predict where the jobs will be and how the economy will fare over the next decade. I also graduated undergrad and college (7 years) with about $40K (Canadian) in debt. I've paid some off thankfully so if I go to grad school in fall I won't be any worse off than where I was a few years ago.

You've already sat down and considered ALL the pros and cons. It seems like DC is the best choice in the long run. And in life, we always have to consider the future not just the next 5 years.

I hope you can also find some external scholarships and bursaries to offset the costs associated with living in DC. I want to tell you not to take on debt but it seems necessary here. It sucks that you didn't get the funding. Maybe in 2nd year you can find a way to get funding from the school.

This is a tough call. It seems like DC has the best internship/employment opportunities. You know all the risks so live your dream.

To be perfectly honest I would have no problem living in a 500 square foot, one bedroom apartment and riding my bike & the subway for the next 25 years; that's what I was planning on doing anyways. That's what I want to do.

Just realize that life changes. 25 years is a long time for life to stay the same. I don't know if you'll ever have kids, want a bigger house, etc but life will change.

[woolfie]

I don't know anything about Environmental Policy programs and what the funding is usually like, but this is the advice I'd give someone in the humanities, see if you can use it. I'd say, do not take any unfunded offer. Reapply next year and reapply to programs that are known for funding. With your debt, you can't afford more debt. It depends on if you have a job or not that you can continue on, and if you do, I'd say reapply next year. I have about 5K in debt from undergrad, I worked full time during it, and even I'm not considering paying for graduate school or taking out more loans. With the economy the way it is, it's not worth it.

[CC139]

And I appreciate D-Lux for pointing out the cost of living differential & urban components here. I plan on living abroad, at least for a few years, after finishing my degree (Dr. Conca has worked closely with a prof at Uppsala University in Sweden, and I would love to research with him there, as Swedish schools are free, even to international students), so that should address your travel concerns.

Schools will not be free for international students starting this fall. You may want to check into that and look into additional funding opportunities if you're really keen on the opportunity of doing research there.