Safety w/ Funding or Top Choice Waitlisted for Funding

[jblsmith]

I know the April 15th deadline is still a couple weeks away but I wanted to get some feedback as I'm sure a number of you are in the same or similar position. As the title suggests I've been accepted to my safety school with funding but also my top choice where I've been waitlisted for funding. My question is, which school should I go to in the event that I do not get a funding offer from my top choice by April 15th? Obviously, if I go to my safety I'll be set, however, if I decline this offer there's a chance I may get a funding offer after April 15th (from another student who declined). There's also a chance that I could get funding in my second year if I don't get it this year. But, of course, there's also the chance that I may not get funding at all. If April 15th rolls around and I don't get an offer do I roll the dice and decline the offer at my safety or do I go with the sure thing?

[fuzzylogician]

Can you get an extension of the decision deadline from the safety school?

Would you be able to fund your education yourself if you end up not getting funded by your top choice at all?

In your shoes I would probably choose the safety school, because I could never afford to fund school myself (I also don't think it's a right move, anyway). If funding becomes available at your top choice after you've accepted the other offer, you can inquire about being released from your obligation there. I think many times a school won't keep you if you express a desire to go elsewhere.

[jblsmith]

I could fund myself but it'd all be with student loans and I'd rather not do that becasue I'm already $100k in debt. I've thought about accepting the offer then being asked to be released but that seems like it would burn a lot of bridges. If it comes down to it I may ask for a 2-week extension from the safety to hear back from my top school but they may not go for that. Any thoughts on asking for an extension?

[fuzzylogician]

Asking for an extension and asking to be released from your obligation will both invariably convey to the school that it's not your top choice. But schools know that they're not everyone's top choice, for all kinds of reasons. If they agree to release you from your obligation, I agree that it will not make them too happy and it may burn some bridges, but if you do it right most profs should be able to understand your considerations. You have to decide if your top choice is worth it. Re: asking for an extension, you just tell them that you're still waiting to hear back from some of the other schools you applied to and that you'd like to have all of your results before you make a decision. They may go for it, or they may not, but obviously they'll know that they are not your top choice. Re: self-funding, could you repay that kind of debt and is it worth it? It's your call. Different people are comfortable with different levels of risk.

[jblsmith]

Asking for an extension and asking to be released from your obligation will both invariably convey to the school that it's not your top choice. But schools know that they're not everyone's top choice, for all kinds of reasons. If they agree to release you from your obligation, I agree that it will not make them too happy and it may burn some bridges, but if you do it right most profs should be able to understand your considerations. You have to decide if your top choice is worth it. Re: asking for an extension, you just tell them that you're still waiting to hear back from some of the other schools you applied to and that you'd like to have all of your results before you make a decision. They may go for it, or they may not, but obviously they'll know that they are not your top choice. Re: self-funding, could you repay that kind of debt and is it worth it? It's your call. Different people are comfortable with different levels of risk.

A PhD in Econ is a pretty lucritive degree and I pry could pay it off if I had to. If It comes down to it I might have to ask for an extension.

[polarscribe]

If you're already $100k in debt and you're accepted without a funding guarantee, you could be looking at another $100k piled on top of that. It doesn't matter how lucrative you think the degree will be - that is an absolutely impossible debt load that will see you crushed by mid-five-figure monthly payments

[jblsmith]

If you're already $100k in debt and you're accepted without a funding guarantee, you could be looking at another $100k piled on top of that. It doesn't matter how lucrative you think the degree will be - that is an absolutely impossible debt load that will see you crushed by mid-five-figure monthly payments

5-Figure? At $10k/mo. that means it'll be paid off in 2 years. Most student loans are 10 or 20 yr loans so I'd pry be payin $1500-$2000/mo. which is a lot of money no doubt. But a starting assistant econ professor salary is right about $90k-$110k, and if I go to the private sector I could make much more than that, so even $24k a year wouldn't be unbearable. But you're right, $200k is entirely too much to pay for education.

[polarscribe]

Oops, I meant four-figure... brainfart

Starting assistant econ professor salaries are not $100k, unless you're talking about starting at Cal or Harvard or something. I wouldn't base your financial planning on the assumption that you'd get one of those jobs right out of the box. Not impossible... but obscenely competitive.

Based on a quick salary database check, places like UTK and U of Hawaii start around $70k, which is still not bad. SLACs generally start even lower.

I am facing a similar dilemma, between first-choice unfunded (so far) and backup, funded. I choose to think of it this way: how much money would loans cost me in the long run (add in interest...) and what is the opportunity cost of having so much debt to pay back over the next 10 to 20 years? What opportunities, vacations, whatever would I have to forgo because of how big a loan check I have to cut every month?

I would dearly love to go to my dream school. I would not dearly love adding $50,000 in graduate debt to my $15,000 in undergrad debt.

Edited March 23, 2011 by polarscribe

[hopelesslypostmodern]

Starting assistant econ professor salaries are not $100k, unless you're talking about starting at Cal or Harvard or something. I wouldn't base your financial planning on the assumption that you'd get one of those jobs right out of the box. Not impossible... but obscenely competitive.

Based on a quick salary database check, places like UTK and U of Hawaii start around $70k, which is still not bad. SLACs generally start even lower.

I think polarscribe has hit the nail on the head. I would hesitate to plan to take on extra debt with the expectation that there is going to be a job with a fantastic salary right away. There is always the chance that you won't get any job.

Then again, take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert on the demand for economists in the job market by any means.

[jblsmith]

I'm just going off what I see reported by public universities and what my profs tell me.

[tangrinka]

[...] assistant econ professor salary is right about $90k-$110k

Good luck with that! I would never accept an offer without funding. If a school can't offer me funding, I am probably not the best fit for them and they offered money to more qualified candidates.

[wtncffts]

I'm just going off what I see reported by public universities and what my profs tell me.

The thing to note, though, is that, as bad as it sounds, there's a significant chance you (any of us) won't end up with a PhD, or if you do, that you will find a position that pays in that range. Around 50% of grad students won't finish the program, and of those who finish, a significant portion will not be able find tenure-track positions. Granted, an economics PhD may afford wider career opportunities than some others, I don't know. But it's a lot of debt for not a sure thing. If you're funded, at least if you decide to withdraw from a program or aren't able to find a position, you're basically in the same place you started and not however many thousands of dollars in the hole for nothing.

[jblsmith]

Good luck with that! I would never accept an offer without funding. If a school can't offer me funding, I am probably not the best fit for them and they offered money to more qualified candidates.

Here are some quick links I found to some public university salary reports.

Page 62:

http://provost.uiowa.edu/docs/data/salary/salary0405.pdf

http://www.jobs-salary.com/university-of-pittsburgh-assistant-professor-salary.htm

http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/texas-state-university/titles/assistant-professor/5565/

[chaospaladin]

I know the April 15th deadline is still a couple weeks away but I wanted to get some feedback as I'm sure a number of you are in the same or similar position. As the title suggests I've been accepted to my safety school with funding but also my top choice where I've been waitlisted for funding. My question is, which school should I go to in the event that I do not get a funding offer from my top choice by April 15th? Obviously, if I go to my safety I'll be set, however, if I decline this offer there's a chance I may get a funding offer after April 15th (from another student who declined). There's also a chance that I could get funding in my second year if I don't get it this year. But, of course, there's also the chance that I may not get funding at all. If April 15th rolls around and I don't get an offer do I roll the dice and decline the offer at my safety or do I go with the sure thing?

What is the name of the safety school with funding? What is the name of the school where you got accepted, but was waitlisted for funding?

[jblsmith]

What is the name of the safety school with funding? What is the name of the school where you got accepted, but was waitlisted for funding?

University of Tennessee, Knoxville was the safety.

Pro: Flagship state university, name recognition outside academia, fit well with the faculty

Con: Teir 3 institution, poor recognition within academia

University of Pittsburgh was the top choice

Pro: Higher ranked program, fairly well known and respected within academic economics, large program, solid faculty, research interests fit well

Con: Sans funding

[polarscribe]

Within academia, nobody cares about "Tier 3" or whatever USNWR calls anything.

If you want to take out six-figure loans for a Ph.D program on top of the six-figure undergraduate debt you're already carrying, knock yourself out. I just hope everything goes perfectly as you planned - otherwise, you're in for a world of hurt when those loan bills start coming due.

Edited March 25, 2011 by polarscribe

[chaospaladin]

University of Tennessee, Knoxville was the safety.

Pro: Flagship state university, name recognition outside academia, fit well with the faculty

Con: Teir 3 institution, poor recognition within academia

Can you elaborate on the name recognition outside academia vs. recognition within academia? Does this mean if you want to work in a research lab, then UTK is good, but if you want to be a professor, then UTK is bad?

Also when you said UTK is a safety school, is it just a safety school for their economics / finance PhD Program or is it a safety school in general for pretty much all of their graduate programs?

Edited March 25, 2011 by chaospaladin

[The Dudester]

Debt for a PhD is a kiss of death.

[natsteel]

5-Figure? At $10k/mo. that means it'll be paid off in 2 years. Most student loans are 10 or 20 yr loans so I'd pry be payin $1500-$2000/mo. which is a lot of money no doubt. But a starting assistant econ professor salary is right about $90k-$110k, and if I go to the private sector I could make much more than that, so even $24k a year wouldn't be unbearable. But you're right, $200k is entirely too much to pay for education.

The median (not starting) salary for an assistant professor of economics is under $70,000.* A more realistic estimate would be around $50,000. And that is only IF you are lucky enough to get out of your program right into a TT position. If you had no debt from undergrad, it might be more possible, but $100k is alot of money.

You didn't say how much of that is private and/or unsubsidized debt, but, even if the entire $100k was from a Direct Loan, at 6.8%, payable over 20 years, you're still looking at $763/month.** That's $9,100 per year. You would pay back $183, 201 for that $100,000. If any of it is unsubsidized or from private lenders, those numbers would go up SIGNIFICANTLY. A good rule of thumb is to not take on more debt overall than your expected STARTING salary upon degree completion. Of course, you are already well beyond that. I've read so many stories by people being crushed later in life by student debt repayment (many whose debt load was much less than yours is now).

Taking out $100k in loans for undergrad was a very fiscally irresponsible decision, which will affect you negatively for decades for to come. Don't make it worse. If you were to take out another $100k for a doctoral program, then you would have to double the numbers above and you could very well end up owing upwards of $25,000 per year in debt repayment. I would just encourage you to strongly consider the ramifications in the events that things don't go perfectly according to your plan (i.e., get PhD, get job for $70,000+ yr right away, etc...), as they often do.

I think it would be fiscal madness to take out another $100k on top of what you already owe for a PhD in Economics. But that, of course, is just my .02... Best of luck to you, jblsmith!

*http://www1.salary.com/Asst-Professor-Economics-salary.html

**http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

[runonsentence]

The median (not starting) salary for an assistant professor of economics is under $70,000.* A more realistic estimate would be around $50,000. And that is only IF you are lucky enough to get out of your program right into a TT position. If you had no debt from undergrad, it might be more possible, but $100k is alot of money.

You didn't say how much of that is private and/or unsubsidized debt, but, even if the entire $100k was from a Direct Loan, at 6.8%, payable over 20 years, you're still looking at $763/month.** That's $9,100 per year. You would pay back $183, 201 for that $100,000. If any of it is unsubsidized or from private lenders, those numbers would go up SIGNIFICANTLY. A good rule of thumb is to not take on more debt overall than your expected STARTING salary upon degree completion. Of course, you are already well beyond that. I've read so many stories by people being crushed later in life by student debt repayment (many whose debt load was much less than yours is now).

Taking out $100k in loans for undergrad was a very fiscally irresponsible decision, which will affect you negatively for decades for to come. Don't make it worse. If you were to take out another $100k for a doctoral program, then you would have to double the numbers above and you could very well end up owing upwards of $25,000 per year in debt repayment. I would just encourage you to strongly consider the ramifications in the events that things don't go perfectly according to your plan (i.e., get PhD, get job for $70,000+ yr right away, etc...), as they often do.

I think it would be fiscal madness to take out another $100k on top of what you already owe for a PhD in Economics. But that, of course, is just my .02... Best of luck to you, jblsmith!

*http://www1.salary.com/Asst-Professor-Economics-salary.html

**http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

I heartily agree that it would be unwise to fund a PhD on your own dime. Even if econ IS the insane holy grail of academic salaries, consider that PhD attrition rates are a testament to how difficult it can become to get a PhD on an intellectual, emotional, and fiscal level. You never know what will happen, and it would really make your life miserable to have to be stuck finishing a degree you no longer want to finish and taking a job you don't want to have to take at the end, just because of your debt. The debt will, in essence, rule your life; taking the funding gives you many more options.

Consider, also, that your B choice must really want you to come if they funded you. I think it's nice to attend somewhere where you're being courted, where the department believes you'd be a good fit and would do well. They believe in you enough to throw money your way!

[jblsmith]

The median (not starting) salary for an assistant professor of economics is under $70,000.* A more realistic estimate would be around $50,000. And that is only IF you are lucky enough to get out of your program right into a TT position. If you had no debt from undergrad, it might be more possible, but $100k is alot of money.

You didn't say how much of that is private and/or unsubsidized debt, but, even if the entire $100k was from a Direct Loan, at 6.8%, payable over 20 years, you're still looking at $763/month.** That's $9,100 per year. You would pay back $183, 201 for that $100,000. If any of it is unsubsidized or from private lenders, those numbers would go up SIGNIFICANTLY. A good rule of thumb is to not take on more debt overall than your expected STARTING salary upon degree completion. Of course, you are already well beyond that. I've read so many stories by people being crushed later in life by student debt repayment (many whose debt load was much less than yours is now).

Taking out $100k in loans for undergrad was a very fiscally irresponsible decision, which will affect you negatively for decades for to come. Don't make it worse. If you were to take out another $100k for a doctoral program, then you would have to double the numbers above and you could very well end up owing upwards of $25,000 per year in debt repayment. I would just encourage you to strongly consider the ramifications in the events that things don't go perfectly according to your plan (i.e., get PhD, get job for $70,000+ yr right away, etc...), as they often do.

I think it would be fiscal madness to take out another $100k on top of what you already owe for a PhD in Economics. But that, of course, is just my .02... Best of luck to you, jblsmith!

*http://www1.salary.com/Asst-Professor-Economics-salary.html

**http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

Thanks mom. You think I'm not aware of my debt burdon? What is one supposed to do when one goes to a private school and plays football so that he is barred from having a job and whose parents hadn't been able to saved anything for college? Maybe you should think twice before self-righteously casting judgment on fiscal (ir)responsibility in a public forum. Just my 2 cents.

[natsteel]

Thanks mom. You think I'm not aware of my debt burdon? What is one supposed to do when one goes to a private school and plays football so that he is barred from having a job and whose parents hadn't been able to saved anything for college? Maybe you should think twice before self-righteously casting judgment on fiscal (ir)responsibility in a public forum. Just my 2 cents.

I didn't cast self-righteous judgment in that post. Anyone will tell you that $100k in debt for an undergraduate degree is a bad fiscal decision. And for anyone to say that $24k/yr in debt repayment "isn't unbearable" leads me to believe you are fiscally naive. Which is why I took a few minutes to run those numbers for you, just in case you happened to be unaware of them.

Since you asked "what is one supposed to do..." One can do what myself, and many others, have done. Go to a school you can afford, do extremely well there, and then get a fully funded offer to a top 5 PhD program, like me. That would have been the more responsible move. I went to a public university where tuition was $5,000/yr. I didn't have parents to pay for school and I have a wife and two kids to support. So don't act like going to a PRIVATE school and wracking up $100k in loans to play football was your only option. If you had a football scholarship which barred you from working, why would you have needed $100k in loans, in the first place? Maybe you should think twice before being so self-pitying when many others on this public forum don't even have a funded offer and/or are coming from much more difficult circumstances than yourself.

Edited March 25, 2011 by natsteel

[chaospaladin]

What constitutes as a "tier 1 research" university? Like what is the cut off rank?

[polarscribe]

jblsmith, if you don't want advice, why did you start this thread? Did you really expect everyone to just say "Oh yeah, borrowing a cumulative total of $200,000 for college is a brilliant idea, go for it?"

If you want real advice from real graduate students/applicants, don't get all pissy when that advice isn't what you want to hear. On the other hand, if you want validation, go ask Stuart Smalley.

Edited March 26, 2011 by polarscribe

[equinox]

University of Tennessee, Knoxville was the safety.

Pro: Flagship state university, name recognition outside academia, fit well with the faculty

Con: Teir 3 institution, poor recognition within academia

University of Pittsburgh was the top choice

Pro: Higher ranked program, fairly well known and respected within academic economics, large program, solid faculty, research interests fit well

Con: Sans funding

I can see your dilemma being a problem if it was you know, HARVARD vs Knoxville, but as is- do NOT accept the UPitt, is my advice. University of Pittsburgh might be an OK place, but no one is going to offer you a job just because of the name coming out.

You absolutely need to find out NOW from both universities since you ARE thinking about this scheme (and I think the answers will give you a reality check):

How many people are getting through the program and graduating, and where are they getting jobs? What are their graduates starting salaries? Because averages and anecdotes of salaries of SOME Econ professors mean absolutely nothing.

Your top choice should be your top choice because of FIT, not because of name. If there are people you want to work with at Knoxville, go there. If there really are NOT, then... maybe neither school is a good idea.

Edited March 26, 2011 by equinox