Advice needed for MTS decision...

[Neem217]

Hello,

I'm new to the Grad Cafe but could use some advice/words to help me with this terribly agonizing discernment process.

I applied to MTS programs (or whatever equivalent). I'm trying to decide where to go. In summary, I go into:

-HDS: Full tuition funded and about 9k stipend

-Marquette: Trinity FelloIwship: Full tuition funded and about 18K stipend

-UChicago: Half tuition funded

-Boston College: Full tuition funded

So...where should I go? I want to study systematic theology (modern and post modern thought) with interest in feminist theologies.

HDS seems like a good option but I'm concerned about what I've heard of the post-Christian atmosphere.

Boston College is my alma mater so I'm unlikely to return. I absolutely loved it there but I think I want to change things up.

I love UChicago from what I know but taking on all that debt makes me want to cry.

Any words of wisdom?

[highlanders]

I spoke to a professor from my alma matter the other night who is a recent PhD grad and his basic advice is to go somewhere that will support/advocate for you when you apply for the PhD. Totally understandable that you don't want to do BC again, but distinguishing yourself as a Catholic scholar of sorts is actually a tremendous advantage. Remember where the jobs are at: Catholic universities.

I would ditch Chicago, you're right, it's not worth the debt at all. There is way too much wishful thinking on this board about repaying debt when you have a masters in theology, this is not a degree that has a return on investment.

To me, your decision is down to BC and HDS. BC cares more about the masters students than HDS does, but HDS is a bit stronger in feminist theology...yet not necessarily in systematic theology though. Then, the 9 extra k is nice to have, but I'm sure BC would provide the same should you work on campus.

If I were you...I'd take HDS, then return to a Catholic institution for the PhD. Do know that you are leaving a more supportive community.

Best of luck!

PS- I'm like 99% sure I'm going with BC myself.

[vega maudlin]

Highlanders, is there a reason you didn't mention Marquette? I don't know much about the school, but 18K is a huge stipend...

I spoke to a professor from my alma matter the other night who is a recent PhD grad and his basic advice is to go somewhere that will support/advocate for you when you apply for the PhD. Totally understandable that you don't want to do BC again, but distinguishing yourself as a Catholic scholar of sorts is actually a tremendous advantage. Remember where the jobs are at: Catholic universities.

I would ditch Chicago, you're right, it's not worth the debt at all. There is way too much wishful thinking on this board about repaying debt when you have a masters in theology, this is not a degree that has a return on investment.

To me, your decision is down to BC and HDS. BC cares more about the masters students than HDS does, but HDS is a bit stronger in feminist theology...yet not necessarily in systematic theology though. Then, the 9 extra k is nice to have, but I'm sure BC would provide the same should you work on campus.

If I were you...I'd take HDS, then return to a Catholic institution for the PhD. Do know that you are leaving a more supportive community.

Best of luck!

PS- I'm like 99% sure I'm going with BC myself.

[highlanders]

I personally would not want to live in Milwaukee and I don't think the program is as strong as BC or HDS. It is a huge stipend, but I would take a little debt to go elsewhere.

Highlanders, is there a reason you didn't mention Marquette? I don't know much about the school, but 18K is a huge stipend...

[vega maudlin]

Makes sense.

I personally would not want to live in Milwaukee and I don't think the program is as strong as BC or HDS. It is a huge stipend, but I would take a little debt to go elsewhere.

[Neem217]

Highlanders,

Thanks for the advice.

I agree that the jobs are at Catholic universities but even those Catholic Universities, including Boston College, seem to mostly hire individuals that have PhDs from Yale, Harvard, UChicago, etc. Though I will agree that was another era and the trend is changing.

I would agree that BC has a stronger community especially the School of Theology and Ministry which I consider to have very supportive and friendly atmosphere. It's nice to be in a classroom where what is taught can also be what is believed and practiced.

Harvard, however, may be that challenge necessary to exist in a setting that will challenge how one thinks theologically. I've heard this from some Catholics and BC alumni at HDS, that it has been a rewarding experience because the need to reexamine one's faith in such a context. It'd be neat to be able to grow and respond adequately to those challenges/questions/accusations that are often post-modern and post-Christian, and still be affirmatively Catholic. I may be romanticizing the whole thing...

Marquette has a lot going for it. I've read from different sources that in a few years Marquette will be a big name. It has solid and committed (though Judeo Christian focused) faculty. The fellowship I got requires 20 hours of service at an agency while completing the Masters. It's sort of the whole faith in action thing, so pairing studies with service/justice issues. But you're right, I really don't want to be in Milwaukee.

Are you/did you got o Admitted Students Day at BC? If sways you that 1%, BC has amazing campus food.

Thank you for your advice!

I spoke to a professor from my alma matter the other night who is a recent PhD grad and his basic advice is to go somewhere that will support/advocate for you when you apply for the PhD. Totally understandable that you don't want to do BC again, but distinguishing yourself as a Catholic scholar of sorts is actually a tremendous advantage. Remember where the jobs are at: Catholic universities.

I would ditch Chicago, you're right, it's not worth the debt at all. There is way too much wishful thinking on this board about repaying debt when you have a masters in theology, this is not a degree that has a return on investment.

To me, your decision is down to BC and HDS. BC cares more about the masters students than HDS does, but HDS is a bit stronger in feminist theology...yet not necessarily in systematic theology though. Then, the 9 extra k is nice to have, but I'm sure BC would provide the same should you work on campus.

If I were you...I'd take HDS, then return to a Catholic institution for the PhD. Do know that you are leaving a more supportive community.

Best of luck!

PS- I'm like 99% sure I'm going with BC myself.

[thekidisalright]

I'm at Marquette (PhD) right now with an interest in feminist theology. I LOVE both Milwaukee (seriously, who knew it was such a hip town?) and being at Marquette. However, I'm not sure how my experience would transition to someone looking at the MA (for instance, the coursework at the MA level is rather different than at the PhD). Feel free to PM me if you have questions about the program or would like to talk to someone who is here.

[JonathanEdwards]

If sways you that 1%, BC has amazing campus food.

I'll second that, and add that the area has some excellent coffeeshops - I can't say enough good about Lincoln Street Coffee in Newton.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Westcott

[Phenomenologist]

It sounds like Chicago would be the best "fit" for you, but I would agree that it would be foolish to turn down the funded offers from other schools, only to take on usurious debt. If you can avoid debt in the humanities, do it!!!

To me, the options boil down to HDS or Marquette. If you want to "diversify your portfolio" and Boston is already your alma mater, I'm very sympathetic with that.

To be honest, I'm biased toward Marquette: I agree that in a few years, they will be among the best programs. They hire all new faculty exclusively from Duke Div and Notre Dame graduates, and are building a stellar team. I really, really, really would love to do my PhD at Marquette after I finish my MA. The only downside is that I'm not sure how much "minority discourse" (feminism, post-colonial, etc.) they do there.

HDS specializes in minority discourse, but you're right that it's a more liberal and less confessional institution. That could be fun and challenging (I'm a progressive evangelical going to more left-ish Yale), but it could also be difficult. Are you married? That could offer a good support buffer, but it's not necessary. You'd have to evaluate your personal temperament: would you thrive in such an environment, or be suffocated? One HDS student posted on these boards that like half the HDS students are gay (probably an exaggeration, but an important sentiment nevertheless). Is this too liberal for you?

HDS as a name also will go much farther outside the humanities/academic/theology world, worst-case-scenario if you have to go enter the private workforce.

Personally, I would go to Marquette, but that's because it gels with my interests well, in addition to being a great program. They gave you a whopping stipend, to boot. May I ask, what was your GRE scores? I didn't apply to Marquette or Notre Dame because I wasn't prepared for the GRE.

Remember where the jobs are at: Catholic universities.

Can you guys please expound on this point? Actually, I'll start a new thread about it, come to think of it.

[Neem217]

May I ask, what was your GRE scores? I didn't apply to Marquette or Notre Dame because I wasn't prepared for the GRE.

Can you guys please expound on this point? Actually, I'll start a new thread about it, come to think of it.

Thanks, Phenomenologist!

My stats are:

GPA: 3.7 Overall from Boston College, higher within the Honors Philosophy and Theology Majors (I took a year abroad at Oxford studying law and ethics and that lowered my GPA...)

GRE: 1300 and 5 on the Writing

So, I don't really consider myself a stellar applicant based on those number statistics. I think there were other factors like work experience (one year in corporate, two years of AmeriCorps through religiously affiliated service agencies) and my statement of purpose that bettered my application. I do plan to take the GREs again in July before ETS changes the test in August as to have higher score when/if I apply for PhD programs and so not to have to worry about them during the academic year.

As for the latter question, I would say more Catholic schools or religiously affiliated ones are hiring in more numbers than secular ones. The programs at these Catholic schools (and I would like to say the same for other religiously affiliated school but I don't honestly know) tend to higher more people who have just finished their PhDs and that includes Boston College, Marquette (kinda) and Fordham. It also depends on what you want to study - so I can't say that everyone who gets a PhD in Theology or Religion will be wanted by Catholic universities but Catholic universities are truly attempingt to diversify their Theology Departments. While there are Catholic scholars at these schools, there are also scholars in a lot of other religions with a lot of other focuses, modern, Buddhist, Islamic, feminist, protestant, etc. Lastly, Catholic schools (for the most part) put a lot of effort in their Theology programs and with reason. Unlike some other secular schools, these universities are never going to cut the theology program and their classes are never going to be cancelled because the idea of theology and the religious are tied into the school's identity.

HDS specializes in minority discourse, but you're right that it's a more liberal and less confessional institution. That could be fun and challenging (I'm a progressive evangelical going to more left-ish Yale), but it could also be difficult. Are you married? That could offer a good support buffer, but it's not necessary. You'd have to evaluate your personal temperament: would you thrive in such an environment, or be suffocated? One HDS student posted on these boards that like half the HDS students are gay (probably an exaggeration, but an important sentiment nevertheless). Is this too liberal for you?

I don't think HDS would be too liberal for me. I would consider myself socially liberal but more in line with preferential option for the poor and marginalized. I think that's different than to say I am a one who is against all forms of tradition and would like to rewrite and debunk all of theology. I don't find religion irrational or silly. I think HDS would be a good option if I found a community there. I'm not married. I have friends there from undergraduate along with other individuals like mentors. I just dont want to have to defend my faith all the time, while I think that's important to do so - I don't know if I want to be in a space where that happens at every corner and turn. So, I suppose I wouldn't be suffocated by the "liberalism", more so possibly tired from all the need to speak up about being religious.

Again, thank you for your advice! It was helpful.

[Phenomenologist]

Thanks for that info on schools hiring and such, very helpful. Sounds like you have a great academic background, and those GRE scores are totally fine for our discipline. We have much in common: I also studied in the UK for two years, studying theology, and I served as a youth pastor a few years, and had some corporate background (although I intentionally neglected the latter in my applications). I'm not looking forward to the GRE change, but I postponed it to buy me some more time to prepare. Do you think it will become more difficult with the change?

I just dont want to have to defend my faith all the time, while I think that's important to do so - I don't know if I want to be in a space where that happens at every corner and turn. So, I suppose I wouldn't be suffocated by the "liberalism", more so possibly tired from all the need to speak up about being religious.

I don't get the impression that HDS squelches all confessional scholars. If anything, the opposite may be true (but I could be totally wrong here): people are unabashedly feminist, unabashedly gay, etc. If people embrace their confessional backgrounds, then it would make sense that people would be more tolerant and pluralist about other confessional voices: including confessional Christian voices. However, the opposite could be true: perhaps they believe "Christianity" is the enforcer of the status quo, and is inherently problematic. But this would be a tremendous mistake on their part, of course.

If you had to constantly defend your faith all the time, that'd be annoying. I think an atheist would have to do this a lot at an evangelical institution. But at a more liberal institution, there technically should be more of a pluralist bend. But I could see it being the inverse of the atheist at a conservative school: a confessional Christian at a liberal school could have to defend their faith all the time, too.

Maybe start a "Poll" on the boards, to ask about the environment at HDS in that respect. There seem to be a lot of folks on these boards who are going there now or in the Fall, and could maybe offer insight.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Phenomenologist

[new mexico]

Thanks, Phenomenologist!

My stats are:

GPA: 3.7 Overall from Boston College, higher within the Honors Philosophy and Theology Majors (I took a year abroad at Oxford studying law and ethics and that lowered my GPA...)

GRE: 1300 and 5 on the Writing

So, I don't really consider myself a stellar applicant based on those number statistics. I think there were other factors like work experience (one year in corporate, two years of AmeriCorps through religiously affiliated service agencies) and my statement of purpose that bettered my application. I do plan to take the GREs again in July before ETS changes the test in August as to have higher score when/if I apply for PhD programs and so not to have to worry about them during the academic year.

As for the latter question, I would say more Catholic schools or religiously affiliated ones are hiring in more numbers than secular ones. The programs at these Catholic schools (and I would like to say the same for other religiously affiliated school but I don't honestly know) tend to higher more people who have just finished their PhDs and that includes Boston College, Marquette (kinda) and Fordham. It also depends on what you want to study - so I can't say that everyone who gets a PhD in Theology or Religion will be wanted by Catholic universities but Catholic universities are truly attempingt to diversify their Theology Departments. While there are Catholic scholars at these schools, there are also scholars in a lot of other religions with a lot of other focuses, modern, Buddhist, Islamic, feminist, protestant, etc. Lastly, Catholic schools (for the most part) put a lot of effort in their Theology programs and with reason. Unlike some other secular schools, these universities are never going to cut the theology program and their classes are never going to be cancelled because the idea of theology and the religious are tied into the school's identity.

I don't think HDS would be too liberal for me. I would consider myself socially liberal but more in line with preferential option for the poor and marginalized. I think that's different than to say I am a one who is against all forms of tradition and would like to rewrite and debunk all of theology. I don't find religion irrational or silly. I think HDS would be a good option if I found a community there. I'm not married. I have friends there from undergraduate along with other individuals like mentors. I just dont want to have to defend my faith all the time, while I think that's important to do so - I don't know if I want to be in a space where that happens at every corner and turn. So, I suppose I wouldn't be suffocated by the "liberalism", more so possibly tired from all the need to speak up about being religious.

Again, thank you for your advice! It was helpful.

"An O for the P," huh? Are you fan of Gutierrez's A Theology of Liberation? I am! I'm also a fan of Paul Farmer's anthropological material, and PIH is founded on this statement.

Edited.

Edited March 25, 2011 by new mexico

[matt6666666666]

I don't know that much about Marquette (since I wasn't looking for a "Catholic" school), BUT for some undergrad research I did visit the Catholic Worker Collection at the Marquette library and was very impressed. Don't know if your "O for the P" (is that what the kids are calling it these days?) has brought you into contact with the (totally awesome) Catholic Worker movement, but the fact that Marquette has the CW collection would indicate to me that they are on board with the "O for the P".

[new mexico]

I don't know that much about Marquette (since I wasn't looking for a "Catholic" school), BUT for some undergrad research I did visit the Catholic Worker Collection at the Marquette library and was very impressed. Don't know if your "O for the P" (is that what the kids are calling it these days?) has brought you into contact with the (totally awesome) Catholic Worker movement, but the fact that Marquette has the CW collection would indicate to me that they are on board with the "O for the P".

"O for the P" is how Dr. Paul Farmer, MD, PhD (cultural anthropology) refers to it -- he has a lot of abbreviations for phrases like this, which is probably from his being a doctor too. I'm not sure if this is how kids refer to it (he's 50 / 51 yrs of age w/ all his training at Duke and Harvard), but he's actually making a preferential option for the poor concerning health care and community development projects in Rwanda, Haiti, Peru, Russia, Lesotho, etc. etc.

I kind of like saying "O for the P" instead of saying "let's make a preferential option for the poor" every time

Edited March 25, 2011 by new mexico

[thekidisalright]

Since multiple people have asked, I will share a little about my experience at Marquette as a feminist theologian:

First of all, my experience has been overwhelmingly positive.

Marquette is fairly traditional. The distribution requirements are a little intense and much of the coursework is focused on the standard topics (CHRISTOLOGY, TRINITY) and major figures in the tradition. They intentionally and explicitly claim that the PhD program produces well-rounded (even generalist?) scholars. This is not, however, code for "conservative." The department is fairly balanced on the liberal/conservative divide. I haven't been able to detect a critical mass in any direction. The department as a whole is incredibly committed to ecumenical dialogue and I've found that this spirit permeates the entire culture of the department. There are lots of people from lots of different perspectives coming together, and somehow everyone plays nice.

Those who focus in "marginalized discourses" are doing so through independent studies and the Theology & Society concentration. I'm able to take 4 courses outside of the department: so far they have been in race theory and feminist ethics. It might be a *tad* more difficult for us than for those who are interested in, say, von Balthasar, but I don't think by much, since everyone in the department is supposed to specialize more in their comps & dissertation than in their coursework. In terms of numbers, I am one of two people (out of nine) in the first year interested in feminist theology.

I have been absolutely 100% supported by all the professors I have encountered. There are a number of professors interested in feminist thought (though none, I think, claim it as their top interest). It's also a wonderful place to study Rahner and method (my two other interests). ALL of my professors have been incredibly encouraging of my work.

To summarize, I love it at Marquette and it has been a really good fit! Please PM me if you are interested at all in knowing more, especially if you have concerns about doing feminist or liberation theology.

Peace,

E

P.S. What's all this hate for Milwaukee? It is seriously a cool town. There are more pubs per person than in any city in the country and we have beaches. The End.

[11Q13]

I don't get the impression that HDS squelches all confessional scholars. If anything, the opposite may be true (but I could be totally wrong here): people are unabashedly feminist, unabashedly gay, etc. If people embrace their confessional backgrounds, then it would make sense that people would be more tolerant and pluralist about other confessional voices: including confessional Christian voices. However, the opposite could be true: perhaps they believe "Christianity" is the enforcer of the status quo, and is inherently problematic. But this would be a tremendous mistake on their part, of course.

If you had to constantly defend your faith all the time, that'd be annoying. I think an atheist would have to do this a lot at an evangelical institution. But at a more liberal institution, there technically should be more of a pluralist bend. But I could see it being the inverse of the atheist at a conservative school: a confessional Christian at a liberal school could have to defend their faith all the time, too.

Maybe start a "Poll" on the boards, to ask about the environment at HDS in that respect. There seem to be a lot of folks on these boards who are going there now or in the Fall, and could maybe offer insight.

With the faculty its not a problem. With the students, who you'll have to deal with much more, it's a totally different story. As far as the students go, any tradition that's not pluralistic will have some combination of feminists and homosexuals making T-shirts in protest, etc.

[Phenomenologist]

With the faculty its not a problem. With the students, who you'll have to deal with much more, it's a totally different story. As far as the students go, any tradition that's not pluralistic will have some combination of feminists and homosexuals making T-shirts in protest, etc.

+1

[thesoftpack]

1) You can't really decide badly among those schools, so I wouldn't agonize too much.

2) I wouldn't go to BC if you've already done it. I speak as someone who also went to BC.

3) I would throw out UChicago because it's ridiculous to me that someone would take out unnecessary debt for a masters level degree. Debt sucks. There's no job on the other side of an MTS (or even a PhD) that will shower you with money, so avoid it whilst it's still possible.

4) I'd start having some serious conversations with people at Marquette. A 17k stipend is a tough thing to turn down. Send a message to the Marquette poster above with some questions, if you haven't already.

5) Catholic school and Catholic MTS makes for a dramatically more difficult jump to a non-Catholic PhD. Something to think about.

[Phenomenologist]

5) Catholic school and Catholic MTS makes for a dramatically more difficult jump to a non-Catholic PhD. Something to think about.

Very interesting -- can you expound on this point more, at all?

[sacklunch]

I think that problem is generally restricted to smaller Protestant schools who will not take a "weird" Catholic. I seriously doubt you would have much problem going from a well known Catholic institution (ND/BC) to a well-known Protestant school for doctoral work, such as Vandy or Emory.

I have been told by certain professors this becomes an issue once you are done and looking for a job. Supposedly, many Protestant schools (again, smaller ones...how many of us will actually work at the above) do not like hiring Catholics, since they believe you might teach something not in line with their mission. I guess this isn't necessarily the case at many, even small, Catholic schools. So in theory it might be "safer" to do your PhD at a Protestant school, but I really doubt this will become an issue if you are wanting to be an purely an academic, and not work at a seminary.

At the level many of us are wanting to study it becomes a moot point in many cases where you study. Many school, Protestant or Catholic, have excellent faculty from a variety of backgrounds. In theory, you are going to that institution because that faculty(s) member has a specialty that interests you. I have rarely had a professors personal beliefs interfere with a course. Again, at a seminary setting this would vary.