Many questions?

[JosephClarkGrew]

OK this is going to be a bit incoherent because, truthfully, my own thought process is all but clear on the matter.

In a nutshell:

First, I want to know if I should apply to MA programs for history in the fall. I am reluctant to because there are so few (if any) funded ones and taking out loans for grad school in the humanities is a recipe for lifelong indebtedness! However, an MA would be good because it would boost my "marketability" in the general job market, would let me figure out if I wanted to pursue a phd, and would enable me to get into a better program if I do choose to pursue a phd (I am currently a senior about to graduate at the "nowhere state university" that is thrown around these boards a lot haha). So that is one problem: Should I even bother going for an MA.

Second, I love writing a lot (What a feeling when you know you've written an epic line that damns an historical figure or have finally worked in a movie or song reference in a discreet but effective way!). I love the sport of MMA (mixed martial arts) a lot. Towards the end of my senior year (a couple of months ago leading into now) I realized that I actually liked writing about MMA more than I liked writing about history! (:unsure:) I was really kind of upset about this because it seems like a bad thing. But is it really that bad? Could the outlook for sportswriting be bleaker than that for PhDs in the humanities? I actually know more about MMA (and the historiography of MMA history but this is due to the fact that the MMA history books that have been published can be counted on one hand thusfar) than about my subfield (not that I don't know anything about my subfield though). So really I'm like unsure of what to do about it. I'm considering writing a journal article about MMA and submitting it to a sports history journal I have in mind. I just really love the sport and feel it would have more opportunities since it is the fastest growing sport in the world and the professoriat is doing anything but.

A possible solution could be to try and make something pertaining to MMA work and if that fails go to grad school but then I wouldn't have anyone to write letters for me when I finally did go since I would have been out of college for however long. This added to the fact that the letters wouldn't mean much since of the whole "nowhere state university" pretty much means that its apply this fall or bust.

If neither of these things work would I have to go back to college and get a "real" degree (engineering, math/science, nursing, business, etc.)?

So...what are all your thoughts on this? What should I do?

Sorry for all the rambling. I just needed to tell people (nobody I know gets besides a music major I know haha) Go ahead and sack me or flame me or whatever you want.

[borderlands]

I would think about doing a MA in journalism. There are some good programs that allow some academic emphasis with journalism--I would only look into these programs, the only problem is limited funding, but if its a risk you think is worth doing then do it.

While a masters degree may be more marketable than a BA I would be worrisome to pursue a degree solely based on financial matters. To tell you the truth I do no think one would be in a better position with or without an MA in this current economic situation. Do what you think you would like best. You do not want to be a dreadful MA history student who could finds his financial/job opportunities to be the same as before completing undergrad.

If you want an academic degree then take the full responsibility that comes with it. Which might mean living a less than financially/ job secure life. It's a risk that one takes to do what one really wants to do. Be happy with what you are doing no matter what happens!

[TMP]

Why do you want to get a MA in history? Really, why history?

Nothing wrong with liking to write a lot. You are expected to write a lot in graduate school, wherever you go. But if you are much more passionate about sports than historical figures/events, I second borderlands' suggestion. Are you already on the university newspaper? If so, did you enjoy your experience? If so, consider this route then.

You don't state what your field of interests are- geographical or thematic. Sports history... from what I've read... can only be done if you're tenured because it's not taken too seriously by most academics. It's part of pop culture, which most programs aren't still crazy about. And yes, you can study pop culture but you have to present yourself very, very effectively and explain why your ideas and questions about pop culture be taken seriously. One of my friends had to go through a lot of hurdles but she seems to be pulling it off pretty well... she just over-analyzed everything and presented in a very interesting way.

I do think you need to think about this more thoroughly and actually think in your next history seminar, "Can I do this? Can I take 3 of these and read a book each week for each seminar? Can I talk about this stuff for 3 hours?"

[StrangeLight]

i'd second tickle's question: why history?

history, as a discipline, is more than just the past stories of a subject or person. you're constructing analytical arguments about change over time, the intricacies of historical processes, the relationship between local, national, and transnational structures, the interplay of human agency and societal structures, etc.

as you said, MMA is a relatively new sport. it would be difficult to write an academic history of the sport. if you still wanted to go the academia route, an anthropology of the culture of MMA could be a feasible approach. but it really sounds like you don't want to do academic writing. and that's fine, because frankly, no one reads academic writing anyway. i'd suggest pursuing sports journalism more broadly and seeing if you can get an MMA or boxing "beat."

i'm sure there's been great historical work done on different martial arts, anything from karate to capoeira. starting with "MMA" may not be the route to go if you're really insistent on wanting to write ACADEMIC history rather than pop/popular/pop culture history. if you're leaning more towards the pop culture history, then go for it. but you don't need (and won't get) a history PhD for that.

and the history MA will increase your marketability in nothing. i say that as someone with a history MA. it does nothing for your job prospects.

[packerboy31489]

MMA definitely needs people who can write. The people who are at the top of MMA reporting are generally very poor writers and more importantly, they are worse researchers. If you have a knack for MMA writing, I urge you, as a die hard fan, to try your hand at MMA reporting. You could learn things about writing and researching through an MA in History , but you would gain more marketability from an MA in journalism or something like that. If you aren't ready to leave history behind, find a funded MA program and try your hand at that while at the same time getting a portfolio together for sports writing. Seriously, you are like my soul mate. I am starting a funded MA this fall, but MMA writing is certainly in the back of my mind. Best of luck.

[sidiosquiere]

I've read a dissertation on Egyptian soccer. The scholar is turning it into a book, but he is not tenured yet. I guess what helped him is that he was able to tie it into larger questions about nationalism, identity, and class. I guess it's possible. Just over-analyze everything and present it in an interesting way as TMP's friend did!

[sidiosquiere]

Also, I've heard of a book on Latinos in American baseball. Again, the author tied it into larger questions about identity and racism in the US. It got him tenure Honestly, sports history is cool! We are in middle of the culture turn, so take advantage of it!

[Safferz]

One of the professors at Michigan State - a top school for African history - is a historian of soccer in Africa! Just sayin'.

[nakasa]

One of the professors at Michigan State - a top school for African history - is a historian of soccer in Africa! Just sayin'.

Two of them do soccer history, actually! Laura Fair has also written several articles about soccer in colonial Zanzibar.

Another cool example of what you can do when you intersect sports and the broader social/political/cultural forces around them is Caribbean historian Laurent Dubois' new book about soccer in the French empire, "Soccer Empire: The World Cup and the Future of France."

/tangent

[sankd]

Also, I've heard of a book on Latinos in American baseball. Again, the author tied it into larger questions about identity and racism in the US. It got him tenure Honestly, sports history is cool! We are in middle of the culture turn, so take advantage of it!

Playing America's Game by Adrian Burgos (at UIUC)? Haha, I read that last semester.

And were you referring to Shaun Lopez on Egyptian soccer?

One of the big names in sports history is in my current department. He's big in boxing, not so much in MMA but in his current seminar he actually assigned a MMA book. For the OP, you'll probably have an uphill battle in terms of the sports history establishment (which is super weird because of the kinesiology/history divide within the discipline). That's not to say it can't be done. A buddy of mine recently wrote a seminar paper on the spread of martial arts in the 1970s, and its impact on American middle class culture. It's a really, really small niche.

Edited March 26, 2011 by sankd

[StrangeLight]

Also, I've heard of a book on Latinos in American baseball. Again, the author tied it into larger questions about identity and racism in the US. It got him tenure Honestly, sports history is cool! We are in middle of the culture turn, so take advantage of it!

we are at the end of the cultural turn. and sports history/the history of sport is an incredibly well developed field. CLR james' book about cricket said more about the caribbean than almost any other, and it was written decades ago.

[sidiosquiere]

Playing America's Game by Adrian Burgos (at UIUC)? Haha, I read that last semester.

And were you referring to Shaun Lopez on Egyptian soccer?

One of the big names in sports history is in my current department. He's big in boxing, not so much in MMA but in his current seminar he actually assigned a MMA book. For the OP, you'll probably have an uphill battle in terms of the sports history establishment (which is super weird because of the kinesiology/history divide within the discipline). That's not to say it can't be done. A buddy of mine recently wrote a seminar paper on the spread of martial arts in the 1970s, and its impact on American middle class culture. It's a really, really small niche.

Yeah! I was referring to both of them! They are both great books,and Prof. Burgos is really cool. And StrangeLight, you're right - I shouldn't use terms like 'cultural turn' without really knowing what they mean and whether or not we are in the middle or end of it. Hopefully I learn what it really means once I take a historiography course in the Fall!

[Riotbeard]

What about a master's in an area studies. These tend to give a lot more freedom if you want to do sports history, or histories in general that are less "conventional". One of the Latin American studies grad students here just got into a great PhD program and she does sports history.

[Jeppe]

we are at the end of the cultural turn. and sports history/the history of sport is an incredibly well developed field. CLR james' book about cricket said more about the caribbean than almost any other, and it was written decades ago.

That's really in the eye of the beholder though, isn't it? And at the very least, it depends on fields and subfields. You're probably right about sport history though.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Jeppe

[JosephClarkGrew]

MMA definitely needs people who can write. The people who are at the top of MMA reporting are generally very poor writers and more importantly, they are worse researchers. If you have a knack for MMA writing, I urge you, as a die hard fan, to try your hand at MMA reporting. You could learn things about writing and researching through an MA in History , but you would gain more marketability from an MA in journalism or something like that. If you aren't ready to leave history behind, find a funded MA program and try your hand at that while at the same time getting a portfolio together for sports writing. Seriously, you are like my soul mate. I am starting a funded MA this fall, but MMA writing is certainly in the back of my mind. Best of luck.

Haha, thanks for the encouragement, man! Yeah the MMA scene is full of people like Jonathan Snowden who, although he did write a good book on the subject of MMA, is sadly more a troll than he is a journalist in many ways.

I actually think I am going to pursuit MMA writing. The road is long and difficult yes, but it its far less long and less difficult than that of a PhD in the humanities. In addition, the sport of MMA is growing whereas the job market for history PhDs cannot boast such a claim.

Nevertheless, I think people that knew I wanted to pursuit a PhD will be disappointed in me and think I am less of a person now. Even other people will think that because now I just have a history degree from "nowhere state university." *Shrugs*

Thanks for the advice, everyone!

[fumblewhat]

i'm sure there's been great historical work done on different martial arts, anything from karate to capoeira. starting with "MMA" may not be the route to go if you're really insistent on wanting to write ACADEMIC history rather than pop/popular/pop culture history. if you're leaning more towards the pop culture history, then go for it. but you don't need (and won't get) a history PhD for that.

I'm giong to take issue with this. Cultural history (including history of current, popular trends) is ACADEMIC history. There's a lot of ways one could approach an academic history of mixed martial arts -- gender/masculinity, globalization, orientalism, whatever. The history and anthropology is a growing field and I think the OP would have an interesting topic.

As for what one can do with a history masters or phd, you might check out this site: BeyondAcademe. It's for historians who are seeking careers outside of academia (which ends up being 70% of them). It talks about how to explain the value or your degree, market yourself, and find a job using those skills. Maybe it'd give you some ideas.

[StrangeLight]

I'm giong to take issue with this. Cultural history (including history of current, popular trends) is ACADEMIC history. There's a lot of ways one could approach an academic history of mixed martial arts -- gender/masculinity, globalization, orientalism, whatever. The history and anthropology is a growing field and I think the OP would have an interesting topic.

of course cultural history is academic history. and the history of popular culture is academic history. but what i mean by "pop history" is history books that are written for non-academics, the NYT best-sellers that our parents and our cousins read, not the monographs that we read in seminars. also, i questioned the usefulness of writing a HISTORY of MMA because it hasn't been around that long. it would be difficult to get change over time. i agree that anthropological or sociological investigations of MMA could be very academic and very fruitful. and of course there are academic histories of martial arts. but "mixed martial arts" is a relatively new phenomenon, and would lend itself better to disciplines that aren't focused on the past.