Are any of you prepared to pay for everything?

[Colin]

RK, I agree with a lot of what you say, and I too got accepted to SFAI.

BUt my situation is alittle different. I am older and this is my one opportunity to go do what I always wanted to do, and get the credentials to teach.

I have to really look hard at my $ obligations right now and what $ I need. The debt is a given, it'll either be a lot or a ton.

I emailed SFAI about some adjustments to my (financial) situation and will see what they have to say.

I am prepared to live (more) frugally, but not sure if that will be enough.

I would regret not trying. I'm not prepared to live with that regret.

are you still on the fence?

[skp]

My answer initially was "no."

But then I got into one of my top-choice schools and realized they were only paying me $8k in funding per year, without the option to defer my acceptance, and with two weeks to make a decision. However, I'm studying design and not purely fine arts, and graduates of this program have historically had no problems scoring good jobs with good companies and repaying their loans. I've talked to a number of other incoming students, and finances were everybody's primary concern. I felt horrible for not doing my research last year and applying to fellowships and scholarships months in advance.

The only other choice I had was to go to my alma mater, which would have cost less than half because it's a public in-state school, but the program wasn't a great fit for my career interests.

I have good credit and no debt of any kind. I'll have to take out $50k in loans and dig into my savings to pay my living expenses out-of-pocket, and it really does scare me because it's a gamble (especially considering the state of the economy)...but it's an investment in my career, and an excellent university. I feel good about this, but the financial aspect does make me really nervous. I hope I've made the right choice.

[RKSim]

I sent a letter to the San Francisco Art Institute today that said I would not be able to enroll unless they paid for 90% of the total cost to attend the program. I mentioned that the debt from the program would not allow me to freely pursue a career as an artist upon graduation, and that I did not want my artistic practice to be motivated by the pursuit of capital.

[frugalartist]

if you have to take on a lot of debt to go to school then you cant afford to go to grad school. the more willing you are to go into debt for school...the more acceptable outrageous tuition fees for future generations to come are. stop the insanity. accept what you cannot afford. if going into enormous debt is the only way you can make your dreams come true then you are going about your dream in an illogical way. your making excuses.

even at yale...its not some ticket to fame or teaching once you've gotten out of there. i know this for a fact as i have talked to people with secure jobs in the academic art world. things are changing. art has become decentralized and less and less professors are being hired to fill the shoes of those retired.

if you can't get decent funding (and i mean awards) then 1. you need to cultivate relationships better or 2. you need to become a better artist or 3. you need to wait. invest that money you dont have back into your work making yourself a better artist. reach out online to people you admire. i have met some great people that way.

i actually did get full funding for my degree plus a TA experience and a stipend. i worked my butt off for it. i visited the school twice and was wait listed! there were only six spots. so i kept in touch. i got in everywhere i applied and used the knowledge (and subsequent awards) to put a gentle fire under the butts of the school that ultimately accepted me.

honestly i see people apply to 12 schools. that's ridiculous. that's about $1000 of material you could be using to buy arty supplies. focus on 4 schools because you need to be able to give it your all and spend your time with them in order to get a good deal.

[frugalartist]

also--i turned down SFAI...because what kind of risks can i take as an artist while in school if i have to worry about 100K in debt afterwards.

[RKSim]

Frugal: I pretty much used the same approach as you, applied to only four schools, visited several times, etc, etc. Where my strategy faltered was that the schools I applied to simply did not have the money available to give out full funding packages. While you can definitely ask about funding opportunities and apply to schools that offer full packages, applying to 10+ schools is not a bad strategy to increase your opportunity as well. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are pulling $1000 out of art supply budgets..

Also, a lot of schools mention that they do offer full funding, but after all the networking, visiting, and 'fluffing' in the world, there is no guarantee that you will receive that package.

[Colin]

I sent a letter to the San Francisco Art Institute today that said I would not be able to enroll unless they paid for 90% of the total cost to attend the program. I mentioned that the debt from the program would not allow me to freely pursue a career as an artist upon graduation, and that I did not want my artistic practice to be motivated by the pursuit of capital.

wow...

[Colin]

if you have to take on a lot of debt to go to school then you cant afford to go to grad school

Are you serious?

Yes, I have been in the real world, longer than I care to admit, and all the hard work and networking and competitive spirit and good art work in the world will not make more opportunities suddenly appear.

I have walked to work when I couldn't afford the subway/bus.

I now have a car payment because I live in a place without decent public transportation.

I made a choice to live here, and it's where I have a job.

So, this capitalistic educational system is outrageous. And? What's the alternative?

I don't want or need to get into a pissing match with you, frugal, since the #s obviously confirm my POV:

most people could not go to grad school without incurring some debt.

Is that fair? When is it ever about fair?

Is is scary? hell yea.

Scarier for me is putting off a dream for 20 years and then giving up on it because of $.

I refuse to let $ be an excuse to not do something.

YMMV good luck with that

[phreeduh]

I'm really interested in this thread. I quit a lucrative career to go back to school and study art several years ago. For the BFA I lived off of savings and wages while I worked the whole time, and I started receiving external funding half way through my master's degree though again I worked through the first year. I'm in a funded PhD program now (a multimedia program centered on music where there is a lot more funding than in visual arts) where I TA for my wages and I'm about to receive an external scholarship that will cut down my job workload.

I've been really lucky in that I'm Canadian and school is much cheaper in my country than it is in the US. I still don't think I could have managed this path without careful strategizing. The decisions that I made that turned out to be the most useful to me were to move to the Province where best/cheapest ratio of art school could be found a whole year early to qualify for in-province tuition (I think you can do the same thing in the US with state schools, right?). This also gave me a year to try to set up some job opportunities for myself that I could keep going while I was a student and to set up the cheapest possible housing situation. (Communal grocery/cooking situations sometimes save you a lot of money).

Once I was in my BFA I really spent a lot of time figuring out what grants and scholarships I could go for and then worked like hell to get the grades to qualify for them and to set myself up with opportunities and structures that would make me the right candidate for them. Again, this took a lot of time and was a stressful, long term, process, but it did payoff once I was in grad school. Most of my jobs ended up being research assistantships, TAships, working on other people's grant projects, or teaching at art centers. Anyway, I managed to make it through though I still incurred some debt, I shudder to think how bad it would have been had I not been working until my second year of grad school.

I don't think I would have fared as well in the US, but some of the strategies I used might still be useful to think about. First, find out what the cheapest living/tuition situations possible for yourself might be and place yourself there ahead of time. (BTW: There are some schools in Canada that wave international fees for applicants at the grad level, making tuition dirt cheap by US standards.. I believe even the international fees are cheaper than a lot of US schools.. and some of the art programs there are quite good). Second, apply to everything you can, funding wise. Third, try to place yourself to receive the funding. Sometimes that means waiting a year, sometimes that means characterizing your work in whatever language is selling.

...

ok, Having said all this I fully support people chasing their dreams at whatever cost. I just hate watching my whole generation be enslaved by debt. I am personally very scared of this, because I want to be an artist at the end of this process, and not feel pressured to take a "normal" job to pay my bills.

[frugalartist]

I don't expect what I have to say to bode well with people. But living off debt for the rest of your life will impair the quality of your life. I say Living off debt, which is different than paying it off. And this is an important distinction.

This is what LIVING OFF DEBT looks like:

I'm 35. My reality is much different than someone who is 25. If I went to say SFAI, then my debt until I turn 65 would be over $600 per month. That's bank. Why? Because the credits accrue interest.

Here are the figures:

Loan Balance: $100,000.00

Adjusted Loan Balance: $100,000.00

Loan Interest Rate: 6.80%

Loan Fees: 0.00%

Loan Term: 30 years

Minimum Payment: $200.00

Monthly Loan Payment: $651.93

Number of Payments: 360

Cumulative Payments: $234,689.16

Total Interest Paid: $134,689.16

So for someone like me the question becomes this: Is 2 years of my life worth $650 for the next 360 months?

Now, PAYING OFF DEBT for the sake of this illustration is different. Say you can afford to pay off much more. You get that debt down and out of your life quickly. The post graduate "quality of life" experience increases enormously.

Also, this may seem contradictory, but I believe that money should not get in the way of life experiences. It's how you arrive to the experience. For example, there are some great residency programs out there that one can participate in for free if you apply and get the award. People you meet at these places can really contribute to your development, not to mention the quality of the connections.

Anyway, I am a HUGE advocate for school. Go back! GO Go GO! I'm just saying, find the right program, take the time to cultivate. Sending applications out to 12 or 15 schools to up your chances of getting in is like saying... the more dates I go out on the more chances I will have to find someone who wants to take me in for a relationship. Is it about getting just anyone? Or is it about finding the right connection?

[frugalartist]

Ah! One more thing. I am not saying only go to school if its for free. Everyone has to determine a strategy that is right for him/her.

[brianmc]

These forums have been very informative. I personally have an undergraduate degree from a top ranked "art school" and refuse to pay that kind of money for graduate school. My senior year there was very discouraging because I was involved in a pilot program where I was constantly being challenged to defend my work in relation to critical readings that we were doing for this 9 credit independent program. I was in no way a slacker, I graduated with the fourth highest GPA of 160 seniors, but I am a painter with a narrative quality to my work and that didn't fit what was going on in the pages of whatever art rag the faculty was photocopying for us to read that week.

I guess what I want to say in this forum is that there are some really good public programs that are ranked right up there with the expensive art schools. I'm guessing that most large public universities have a decent program regardless of ranking. Afterall if you are seeking your MFA you already have some direction to your work, what you really need is TIME. Time to focus, the ability to spend a whole day or whole week working, not just an hour before bed or before work. A good mentor would be great, but that can be difficult to access. Their isn't a lot of information on faculty at a lot of schools. Sometimes you can see a few images, but rarely can you understand their philosophy or motivation as an artist. I would love to study with Carrol Dunham, but I don't think I could afford to go to Columbia even if it was free. The cost of living in NYC without a job is absurd. I lived there and had to leave because I couldn't afford it even with a job. And I never finished a single painting when I was there because I was too busy trying to earn money.

If enough talented students hold out and take a chance on some public programs, the good faculty members will follow. The benefits are probably better at a state funded university than at a private art college and many of them probably offer retirement plans similar to that of other state workers. Eventually more and more state/public programs can become "top schools". Another benefit is that you will have more opportunities to teach in a public program. Mommy and daddy don't want little Johnny getting instruction from a grad student when they are paying 32k a year in tuition.

Don't sell your soul for a degree with the name of an expensive school on it. I have one and none of the patrons at the bar I tend seem to care. I'm not knocking private art colleges if you can afford it. They usually have the best facilities which will matter a lot more to you if you are a sculptor or printmaker than it does to me as a painter. All I need is a wall and a floor that isn't too nice to drip on. Most buildings have them. My private art college experience was very good in many respects. Ten years removed, I wish I hadn't been so stubborn and unwilling to learn marketable skills, but I still have a passion for making art that I feel I need to make whether it ever sells or not and that is still what I want to do.

I'm going to stop ranting because I realize I have gotten way off the subject of this thread. Sorry!

[Spaced Out]

These forums have been very informative. I personally have an undergraduate degree from a top ranked "art school" and refuse to pay that kind of money for graduate school. My senior year there was very discouraging because I was involved in a pilot program where I was constantly being challenged to defend my work in relation to critical readings that we were doing for this 9 credit independent program. I was in no way a slacker, I graduated with the fourth highest GPA of 160 seniors, but I am a painter with a narrative quality to my work and that didn't fit what was going on in the pages of whatever art rag the faculty was photocopying for us to read that week.

I guess what I want to say in this forum is that there are some really good public programs that are ranked right up there with the expensive art schools. I'm guessing that most large public universities have a decent program regardless of ranking. Afterall if you are seeking your MFA you already have some direction to your work, what you really need is TIME. Time to focus, the ability to spend a whole day or whole week working, not just an hour before bed or before work. A good mentor would be great, but that can be difficult to access. Their isn't a lot of information on faculty at a lot of schools. Sometimes you can see a few images, but rarely can you understand their philosophy or motivation as an artist. I would love to study with Carrol Dunham, but I don't think I could afford to go to Columbia even if it was free. The cost of living in NYC without a job is absurd. I lived there and had to leave because I couldn't afford it even with a job. And I never finished a single painting when I was there because I was too busy trying to earn money.

If enough talented students hold out and take a chance on some public programs, the good faculty members will follow. The benefits are probably better at a state funded university than at a private art college and many of them probably offer retirement plans similar to that of other state workers. Eventually more and more state/public programs can become "top schools". Another benefit is that you will have more opportunities to teach in a public program. Mommy and daddy don't want little Johnny getting instruction from a grad student when they are paying 32k a year in tuition.

Don't sell your soul for a degree with the name of an expensive school on it. I have one and none of the patrons at the bar I tend seem to care. I'm not knocking private art colleges if you can afford it. They usually have the best facilities which will matter a lot more to you if you are a sculptor or printmaker than it does to me as a painter. All I need is a wall and a floor that isn't too nice to drip on. Most buildings have them. My private art college experience was very good in many respects. Ten years removed, I wish I hadn't been so stubborn and unwilling to learn marketable skills, but I still have a passion for making art that I feel I need to make whether it ever sells or not and that is still what I want to do.

I'm going to stop ranting because I realize I have gotten way off the subject of this thread. Sorry!

I'm picking up what your laying down. I struggled with my final decision of what schools to apply to. I applied to Hunter and Pratt and almost Columbia but didnt because it just wasnt calling to me. The idea of living in NYC is so romanticized for me. I know a lot of people out there but what you said about the affordability of the city is something that has always been in the back of my mind and it scares me to think that with all the stress of going to school that I will have the stress of surviving in the city as well. In the end I NEEEED my school paid for. No more debt...at least from college.