Williams

[artwhat?]

So I've been reading through lots of the forums and trying to get a better feeling for different schools. I've read a lot about how Williams is such an incredible program and one of the most respected MAs in Art History. I was just wondering if anyone could help me out by telling me why. I've heard about the winter travel and the graduate symposium which sound wonderful. Not having PhD students to compete with must also be great but I looked at the program and it looks like they don't really have big name scholars and offer very few courses because it's so small. I also can't imagine living that far from a major city but that might just be me. I'm interested in modern and contemporary and don't want to pass up a school that could be great for me but beyond the reputation I just don't know. I know so many big names have come out of Williams but is it just a training ground to prepare for a PhD? Any comments from students attending or considering the school would be great!

Edited April 4, 2011 by artwhat?

[ra4681]

So I've been reading through lots of the forums and trying to get a better feeling for different schools. I've read a lot about how Williams is such an incredible program and one of the most respected MAs in Art History. I was just wondering if anyone could help me out by telling me why. I've heard about the winter travel and the graduate symposium which sound wonderful. Not having PhD students to compete with must also be great but I looked at the program and it looks like they don't really have big name scholars and offer very few courses because it's so small. I also can't imagine living that far from a major city but that might just be me. I'm interested in modern and contemporary and don't want to pass up a school that could be great for me but beyond the reputation I just don't know. I know so many big names have come out of Williams but is it just a training ground to prepare for a PhD? Any comments from students attending or considering the school would be great!

I'm waitlisted, but while waiting I am sort of asking the same questions. I went to a small liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere for undergrad, and I'm not too sure I can bare the isolation from major cultural institutions again (although I realize I'm undercutting Mass MoCA and The Clark a bit). I'm not sure what I think of their methodology and sparse course offerings, but the language training appears to be rather rigorous.

How true is the Williams Mafia mythology? How are graduates getting major positions in museums with the current trend of institutions requiring a PhD?

I realize I am just rephrasing your questions - here's hoping someone can provide more information for us! Curious!

[hopelesslypostmodern]

So I've been reading through lots of the forums and trying to get a better feeling for different schools. I've read a lot about how Williams is such an incredible program and one of the most respected MAs in Art History. I was just wondering if anyone could help me out by telling me why. I've heard about the winter travel and the graduate symposium which sound wonderful. Not having PhD students to compete with must also be great but I looked at the program and it looks like they don't really have big name scholars and offer very few courses because it's so small. I also can't imagine living that far from a major city but that might just be me. I'm interested in modern and contemporary and don't want to pass up a school that could be great for me but beyond the reputation I just don't know. I know so many big names have come out of Williams but is it just a training ground to prepare for a PhD? Any comments from students attending or considering the school would be great!

I applied and was accepted by Williams. I initially had cut it from my list (my undergrad advisor suggested that I should just apply to PhD programs since that is my end goal), but added it back onto my list after talking to another art history professor of mine (one with more connections and greater seniority/reputation than my advisor). He basically stressed its reputation and placement for PhD programs. Those were really the main reasons I applied.

Other reasons:

- there is one scholar whose interests dovetailed nicely with my own and at least one other whose interests were related

- they offer lots of opportunities for museum internships. while museum stuff isn't really my goal, I thought that having more experience in that regard could look nice for PhD applications and potentially could be used as a back-up plan.

The travel/symposium were also appealing, and I am not necessarily opposed to small school (being used to the environment of small schools due to my undergrad), though I can see why that would make one hesitate.

I turned down their offer. The short of it is that I got an offer to a PhD program with an excellent fit and great funding. There are other reasons why I felt a bit hesitant about accepting their offer*, but I probably would have accepted it had it not been for my funded PhD offer.

*If you want to know more, feel free to PM me. They aren't necessarily bad reasons, but I feel weird being less than completely positive in a public forum. I'm strange - I know...

[Venus_of_Urbino]

Williams is an awesome program but it is expensive. If you have funding somewhere, go there. Or, get an MA at the CHEAPEST school possible. People get into top programs with MAs from well-respected public schools. You need to work hard, do some professional stuff (conferences, etc), and have an established adviser who will advocate for you.

Also, Williamstown is in the MIDDLE OF NOWHERE. I am from a town considered rural that area, and Williamstown is still considered the sticks. Also, the arh program is the only grad program. The only other people there sort of close to your age will be undergrads. And there are like 1200 of them. Just sayin...

Edited April 4, 2011 by Venus_of_Urbino

[Venus_of_Urbino]

The two years you're at Williams you are required to work in one of the three world class museums they have. Williams College Museum of Art (WCMA - pronounced "Wick-Mah"), Massachusetts Museum of Contemporary Art (Mass MOCA) or The Clark. All are exceptional. One internship at Mass MOCA culminates in you curating an exhibition of your choice with a pretty gracious budget to work with. You can work at WCMA or the Clark in various curatorial or administrative or exhibition positions. Or you can work at the super prestigious Williamstown Conservation center, located right next to the Clark. Also, you are given a stipend to work 8-12 hours a week at these museums.

Also, your class also curates their own exhibition at WCMA.

As side notes: five of the top ten highest paid museum director's are/were Williams graduates.

I would also argue that the Courtauld also provides similar opportunities, although their MA track is only one year.

A few thoughts:

1) I have been to all three of those collections. They are good, but they are by no means "world class." They are impressive for being in the boonies. There are TONS of out-of-the-way museums in New England with interesting and peculiarly good collections like the museums in Williamstown. The Worcester Museum of Art, the Springfield Quadrangle, the Fogg, the Gardner, Hartford's Wadsworth Atheneum, etc all have surprisingly good collections. SMU and Rice now have PhD programs. UT sends many people to these collections. I know a lot of people are east-coast chauvinists (I am admittedly one), but Dallas and Houston have multiple collections that rival those on the West Coast and rival any of the museums on the east coast except for maybe the Met and Moma. Plus, these museums don't have the crazy competition for positions like on the East Coast.

2) Tons of other programs have the option for museum experience. I am at UT-Austin for another couple of weeks. I know several people curating events in the Early Modern department, in modern, in contemporary, in other departments. One of my adviser's students is the head curator of a wing at the Kimball. She graduated less that 10 years ago. The University of Minnesota has TWO very, very good collections in addition to their own museums. The Walker is one of the best contemporary collections in the country. Those students all have access to curating experience from the beginning of their MA if they want. That program is particularly small, too, so there is minimal competition for positions.

3) We also shouldn't discount working for university collections. I know several people in curatorial positions who got their jobs from curating in university galleries. Your first job might be at smaller institution, but I know that many curators receive much nicer gigs from experience in small collections. The Asian arts curator of my tiny and insignificant college museum is now the Asian art curator at a major museum.

Williams is an AWESOME program. No doubt about it. But if you have minimal to no funding, it isn't worth the debt. There are plenty of good programs for cheap. Williams might be a stepping stone to curating, but other schools have similar curating opportunities at arguably better collections. AND if curating is one's goal, s/he will have to get a PhD. A generation ago, one could go to Williams and get a curatorial job, but that simply isn't the case. I would say Williams is a great place to get museum experience AND it is a great stepping stone to a good PhD program, but it isn't anywhere close to being the only MA program to do this. It might have been a generation ago, but our field is growing considerably and the system is changing.

[Venus_of_Urbino]

If you want to be a curator or have a career in museums, go to Williams.

If you want to be a professor, go straight to a PhD program. You'll need a PhD to do anything in academia/university, so save yourself the step. You don't necessarily need a PhD to pursue museum work (including becoming a curator -- but, this is definitely circumstantial).

If you don't have the qualifications to get into a PhD program, my general idea is that Williams probably won't accept you anyways. Applying to other MA programs will be more beneficial to give you that initial research boost that you may need.

With all due respect, this is bogus advice. There was a discussion of this on the main thread. Getting a funded at MA at a respected school and then moving to a strong program for the PhD is a totally legitimate option for getting one's doctorate. I am at a terminal MA program and my cohort were all accepted at top programs for their fields. Getting an MA at Williams gets students into top programs as well. An MA is often an option for students to work with great faculty and explore their interests at a broader level. I turned down several straight PhDs to go to UT because I wanted to work with the awesome faculty here and really explore my interests. I wanted to make sure that I really wanted to work in my area of specialty. Lo and behold--I began in Northern Ren (with a top scholar with tons and tons of connections) went over to Early American for my thesis (with an established scholar in this field--surprisingly hard to find since most of the top scholars are at small colleges) and am now doing a diss on Italian Baroque. Granted, I am interested in trans-atlantic, transnational exchange in the Early Modern, so this all fits into this interest, but having the ability to work with several different faculty members without worry of stepping on someone's toes was a great benefit of being at an MA program. I was accepted at 2 top programs for this field (I only applied to 3) and have made tons of contacts while at UT. Getting an MA at one place and a PhD at another is a great way to have contact with a lot more scholars. Moreover, having experience with many fields helps on the job market and PhD programs love students with intellectual curiosity. It means you won't be a one-trick pony.

Going straight into a PhD program is a great way to get a doctorate, but it isn't the only option. Both tracks have their benefits and we shouldn't discount the merits of each. A generation ago, getting an MA wasn't a serious option, as fewer people wanted PhDs in art history and the field was much smaller. However, the field is changing. We should be careful not to characterize it through the old system.

[Venus_of_Urbino]

The original question was what made Williams so great. I explained it without needing to compare the program with other programs or give examples of other options. All in all, one of the most important parts of planning for graduate school is to determine why you are going and for what. Williams is great for museum work, but there are other options if you want to go elsewhere and there are other programs more suited for those who wish to be an academics.

Your take on this matter is to compare other options that show how Williams is not great. I'm sure the OP will be happy to have such an opinion. You do not need to be so insulting and disrespectful (and defensive) to me for my insights. Actually, in the forum that you mention, I agreed with the fact that a terminal MA then a PhD program for potential academics is a good idea.

As someone who is relatively new to Gradcafe, please be a bit more thoughtful when disagreeing with another member. Thank you.

Apologies if you read it this way. However, my tone was completely informative.

Edited April 4, 2011 by Venus_of_Urbino

[anonymousbequest]

In general, museums are more concerned with experience than the degree. This is a bit difficult to explain without being specific to the needs of an institution. But here's the short explanation: if you have two candidate's whose interests align with what the institution needs they would rather select someone with only an MA who has 3-4 years of museum experience (especially in the curatorial department( as an assistant curator or even a curatorial assistant)), compared to a doctorate who hasn't had the time to participate in internships or has had relatively little museum experience. The program at Williams gives you the most museum experience combined with academic purpose. You are presenting your ideas to an academic audience during the symposium, but you are also learning how the institutions work. Thus, you will have two years of experience with just an MA, whereas a doctorate may not even get a chance to partake in a worthwhile internship until they begin their dissertation work.

So, let's compare a 5-year PhD track program to going to Williams and then pursuing PhD coursework:

5-year track: 2years are doing your MA coursework, 3rd-4th years are PhD coursework. Let's say that you it takes three years to finish your dissertation. Maybe instead of working in a museum (which requires you to be there full time in most cases) you do GA courses or you get fellowships to work on your dissertation.

Williams+PhD: 2 years MA coursework + museum experience. Then you apply and get in immediately to PhD programs. 1-2 years of coursework. And maybe you decide to do what the 5-year track student does and work on GAships or fellowships.

If you both graduate at the same time and you both have the same interests who would be the best candidate for the curator positions? The Williams student with internship experience or the PhD with relatively none? What if both pursued Museum careers during dissertation work? What if both went to smaller schools not near big name institutions? Still, the Phd track student has only 3 years experience, the MA would have 5 (and would have one of those three big name institutions on their cv).

I would also argue that the Courtauld also provides similar opportunities, although their MA track is only one year.

I think this advice is perhaps naive. You'd be hard pressed to find any museum that would take a M.A. who did a couple of years of the kind of museum work graduate students do into the curatorial ranks over a newly-minted Ph.D (contemporary being the exception). Ph.D.s have more knowledge about their field than M.A.s, which one needs to produce exhibitions, publications, and installations--a curator's main function. The other stuff curators do that one doesn't learn in grad school--managing budgets, personnel, schmoozing donors, knowledge of conservation, framing, and the art market--can be learned on the job, in the same way that grad schools don't teach you how to teach, you learn by doing it.

I know a lot of people who received curatorial post-docs or who were hired by museums straight out of their Ph.D. who had no museum experience at all (I'm one of them). The only M.A.s I ever run into are curatorial assistants. Now it may be that I'm talking about a different kind of institution than fullofpink, but I'm guessing that people on gradcafe who really want to go through the long process of earning a Ph.D., would want to work for nationally-known museums with stellar collections (of which Williams College is not, and the Clark is for its area).

Now back to Williams. Until the late '80s, the M.A. degree in art history used to be enough to get people jobs teaching at the junior college level and for some museum jobs, particularly administrative. Williams was the "best" M.A., and became a sort of finishing school--complete with its own "grand tour"--for a group of people went into museums, several of whom became directors. Most of the famed "Williams Mafia" are now either retired or close to it, with Michael Govan of LACMA perhaps the last, and he's not really part of the group.

Nowadays, the M.A. degree in art history can get you an entry level administrative position at a museum, so I'd guess that most Williams grads (try to) go onto Ph.D. programs, just like students at every other M.A. program in the country. The Williams name has a certain allure because of its past, and because it is one of the best undergraduate institutions in the country. I think of it the same way as Bryn Mawr--if you saw Ph.D. rankings 30 years ago, Bryn Mawr was in the top 10. Now not so much. Back then there just wasn't as much choice about where to study, now there is a proliferation of great faculty and programs across the country so a small college with limited offerings like Bryn Mawr can't compete with even public schools. Similarly, the M.A. degree, even from Williams, just isn't what it used to be.

I know several Williams M.A.s, and they went to a variety of Ph.D. programs. I think it's a solid program with name recognition. But if it comes down to a choice between a funded M.A. vs no funding at Williams, take the funded offer.

[skamp]

I've been following this spirited debate all afternoon. Thanks for all the great input about the pros and cons of MA programs!

With such strong and well-informed opinions about Williams, I'd be interested to hear your opinions about other MA programs as well. Particularly, for me, Hunter College.

Thanks!

[ameshu205]

I too have been enjoying following this debate. Just wanted to clarify one point that I don't think has been addressed previously. In the original post, artwhat? wrote, "it looks like they don't really have big name scholars and offer very few courses because it's so small." While it is true that the permanent faculty associated with the MA program is not large by any means, thanks to the research and academic programs office at the Clark, all sorts of big-name art historians come to Williamstown for symposia or as recipients of six-month fellowships at the Clark (for a recent list, see http://www.clarkart.edu/research/fellows-past.cfm). While this fact in itself is not so unusual, this is one case where William's location is extremely beneficial. Because everyone is equally isolated in the hills of western Mass., these very big-deal scholars are typically totally happy to socialize with the grad students with much greater regularity than would occur in a larger city; in the recent past, many have served as readers on students' master's thesis committees. As a relatively recent graduate of the program, one of the things that I valued most about my experience was the introduction that it provided to all aspects of the academic field of art history, particularly the importance of those that take place outside the classroom. Of course, just as with any program, the success of a program boils down to finding just the right individual fit, both academically and personally.

[artwhat?]

Thank you all for a great debate yesterday! It definitely gave me a lot to think about. I'd love to hear more of your opinions about Williams and other MA programs. Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

[asdf123]

Williams MA grad here... can't help but chime in (and now fully funded at my first choice PhD program). I was fully funded at Williams as well -- so I can't speak to the question of whether or not it is worth the price.

The program is excellent, and like other programs, it is what you make of it -- though the opportunities it affords are pretty much second to none. There are ample opportunities to teach, do very high level curatorial work, and high level research work with visiting scholars (through the research and academic program headed by Michael Ann Holly) -- and this is in addition to rigorous coursework. These opportunities do distinguish Williams from other programs -- I know of few other MA students who were able to curate exhibitions at major museums. Several members of my cohort are now in top PhD programs, and several are working in museums as fellows, researchers, and assistant curators.

Needless to say, I'm a big fan of the program (though, admittedly, the Berkshires are fantastic during the summer and awful during the winter).

There are certainly other paths to a successful PhD program -- and I have nothing bad to say about other MA programs (I can really only speak to Williams) -- but, Williams is certainly a good option that, in my experience, opens up doors to PhD programs and museum work.

Edited April 13, 2011 by asdf123

[runaway]

Thanks to everyone for this thread. I had been wondering some of these things myself and it's great to hear answers from different perspectives.

I'm planning to apply to PhD programs in the fall, along with one or two MA programs in case none of my PhD applications are successful. Williams is one of the MA programs I'm considering. My career goals are in academia, not in museums, but with an emphasis on museum studies. I guess I'm left with the following two questions:

1. Is applying to Williams as a "back up plan" the wrong mindset to be in? Should I decide beforehand if I really want to compete an MA first or just focus on getting into a PhD program?

2. I've noticed over and over again that a huge strength of the program is the required internship. I'm currently interning at a major NY museum and have several other museum internships under my belt. Does this mean that the internship experience would be essentially redundant, or is there still a benefit to interning as a graduate student?

[hopelesslypostmodern]

Thanks to everyone for this thread. I had been wondering some of these things myself and it's great to hear answers from different perspectives.

I'm planning to apply to PhD programs in the fall, along with one or two MA programs in case none of my PhD applications are successful. Williams is one of the MA programs I'm considering. My career goals are in academia, not in museums, but with an emphasis on museum studies. I guess I'm left with the following two questions:

1. Is applying to Williams as a "back up plan" the wrong mindset to be in? Should I decide beforehand if I really want to compete an MA first or just focus on getting into a PhD program?

2. I've noticed over and over again that a huge strength of the program is the required internship. I'm currently interning at a major NY museum and have several other museum internships under my belt. Does this mean that the internship experience would be essentially redundant, or is there still a benefit to interning as a graduate student?

1. I don't necessarily think it is wrong to apply to Williams and/or another MA program for a "back up plan" to be wrong. It's super competitive to get into PhD programs. While this doesn't necessarily mean that you won't get into one on your first go around (I did!), it's a good idea to start thinking of what you would do if you get shut out completely (or only get unfunded PhD acceptances). In that case, getting an MA first could be a good stepping stone towards eventually getting the PhD. Also, in my personal experience, writing the MA SOP for Williams helped me reflect on why I wanted a PhD, what an MA could do for me, how my educational/career paths might differ if I go straight to a PhD program or get an MA first, etc. I believe that that reflection helped my applications.

2. I'm not really the person to talk to about internship experience, but I don't think it could hurt. I suppose how redundant the experience would be depends on what exactly you have done at your other internships. I believe that Williams offers a lot of hands on curatorial experience, so if you don't already have a lot of experience in that area, then the Williams program should certainly add some new experiences.

[runaway]

Wow, thanks for such great, thoughtful replies. I know I need to look more specifically at the program to see if it would be a good fit for my interests and focus, but I was starting to wonder if I should just cross the program off my list and save the time. From your answers, it sounds like I should continue to consider it.

I've been lucky to have some very hands-on internship experiences, but not in curatorial, so the experience might help. Although I do want to teach in the long run, I know I want there to be a strong connection between theory and practice in my education. Given the (intended anyway) focus of my work, I think I would be irresponsible to not allow museum practice to inform my examination of theory.

I know I'm qualified for the programs I'm looking for, but I also know how competitive they are (as hopelesslypostmodern said), and want to be realistic about the fact there are many factors beyond my control when it comes to PhD acceptances.

Thanks again!

[cwahl]

This has been a very interesting conversation. I could use some input. Despite making a "final" decision about school for the fall, I feel very uncertain.

I was awarded a full-tuition scholarship to Williams, but would have to pay for housing/food. This 20,000 in debt worth it?

The other choice was WI-Madison with guaranteed funding through the MA program. With the political turmoil with Walker, it's a bit scary for students.

Any thoughts?

[cwahl]

Is 20K your estimate or their estimate? -- I'm just curious. I live in a much bigger town with higher rent and my yearly living costs are less than $7,000/year taking in food/rent and transportation.

You may be able to cut costs with your lifestyle -- renting an apartment farther away and driving to campus (North Adams is beyond cheap) instead of staying in the dorm, cooking your own meals, and a few other things. Also, my friend who graduated from Williams held a few other side jobs during their stay (babysitting, editing, tutoring) for a bit more cash each month. Your internship's stipend might give you a bit of a boost too (I remember it being over 100 a week, but I could be wrong). It's not like you will be studying 60hrs a week and need only live off loan money. If you work during your studies (even if it's a little bit) you might be more comfortable and have less debt.

I wish I knew more about WI-Madison and the political situation. It's all a bit overwhelming!

Which school did you choose?

[cwahl]

That was my estimate, which sounds like it may be extremely high!

I can't believe that 7,000 is all you pay for housing/food. What city are you in?

I said yes to Madison and told Williams yesterday that I probably won't come. I might have a window to say that I will after all, though there was a waiting list. I was just worried about the money considering I already owe about 20,000.

[hopelesslypostmodern]

This has been a very interesting conversation. I could use some input. Despite making a "final" decision about school for the fall, I feel very uncertain.

I was awarded a full-tuition scholarship to Williams, but would have to pay for housing/food. This 20,000 in debt worth it?

The other choice was WI-Madison with guaranteed funding through the MA program. With the political turmoil with Walker, it's a bit scary for students.

Any thoughts?

Madison is a fantastic city. My sister lives on the West Side (not by campus). She has a car, but she can easily take the bus most places, and I believe that buses are even more common around the UW campus area. Madison has a pretty big biking culture as well. And everyone walks around the State Street area.

I know a bit about the Walker situation, but not a whole lot about how it will affect UW-Madison students specifically. My advice would be to talk to some students who are currently there to find out their take on the situation and keep a watch on the news.

UW does have a good art history program. Another student from my undergrad is there now and seems quite happy with it last I talked to him. I think you'll be happy with your choice. Congrats and good luck!

Edited April 22, 2011 by hopelesslypostmodern