Changing PhD programs

[willtherebestars]

I have a question for anybody who is in a PhD program (or knows somebody who has been in this situation) and has for some reason or another decided to go to a different school.

My circumstances are the following: I came to a great school for a PhD in Hispanic Studies. The program, however, is very very small. Although the professors are great (for the most part) and I have learned a great deal, I have come to realize as my research interests become clearer that I might be hurting myself by not being in a bigger program with professors whose interests more closely match my own. Our program focuses on getting students through fairly quickly, so I can't say that I feel like I took as much coursework as I would have liked before (presumably) passing my comprehensive exam. Aside from this, there is the news we got this semester that our program will be suspending PhD admissions for at least two years and only accepting MA candidates. That's not to say that the program is doomed; however coupled with the other information I've given here, I am feeling more and more like I should be in a program which is going forward and which suits me better.

To my knowledge, the schools I'm comparing are equally ranked. It is not a matter of going to a better school by any means. It is truly a matter of resources and fit. The question for me is essentially whether or not I should even consider this. I don't know how awful it seems in terms of etiquette, because I certainly don't want to make my program look bad by leaving it. However I am really concerned with my career and don't want to stay on with a sinking ship, so to speak. I entered the PhD program without a MA; I've taken quite a few courses so far but wouldn't necessarily mind having to take more in the future. As I said, I am not sure I am taking enough for my comfort in my current program.

My idea was to talk with some of the professors at the university I have in mind and to first of all see if their department really would be a better fit for me (of course). I don't see the harm in doing this.

Any feedback / advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Seeking]

If not enough Masters' courses is a reason, you can always attend extra Masters courses at the same univ - with or without credit. You can talk to the professors who are teaching these courses and see if they'll allow you to attend.

Not taking students for PhD for a couple of years doesn't mean it's a sinking ship if the univ and program are well-ranked. Post-PhD at least lack of PhD students in this program will not hurt your job prospects. You will be tested by your employers on the basis of your credentials. So I don't see any particular advantage in moving.

If they offered you funding, you may have to return this money when you move. Besides, the professors at the other university may not be interested in taking a candidate who left a good program - what's the guarantee that you won't leave their program as well if you don't find it to your liking?

Almost certainly, you won't get funding at the other univ and if it's a fully funded program, they would prefer a fresh applicant rather than someone who moved from another good program. So you need to see if you can fund your PhD on your own if you move.

[switch]

If not enough Masters' courses is a reason, you can always attend extra Masters courses at the same univ - with or without credit. You can talk to the professors who are teaching these courses and see if they'll allow you to attend.

Not taking students for PhD for a couple of years doesn't mean it's a sinking ship if the univ and program are well-ranked. Post-PhD at least lack of PhD students in this program will not hurt your job prospects. You will be tested by your employers on the basis of your credentials. So I don't see any particular advantage in moving.

If they offered you funding, you may have to return this money when you move. Besides, the professors at the other university may not be interested in taking a candidate who left a good program - what's the guarantee that you won't leave their program as well if you don't find it to your liking?

Almost certainly, you won't get funding at the other univ and if it's a fully funded program, they would prefer a fresh applicant rather than someone who moved from another good program. So you need to see if you can fund your PhD on your own if you move.

I hope graduate programs are not this judgmental about students who switch graduate programs.

You should definitely try to switch if you can, but you need to gauge whether your program will penalize you if they find out you are attempting to leave. I am in a similar position. Try to switch but be careful about who you tell about your plans to switch.

[green_tea09]

I have a good friend (he is a top student at a very highly ranked university) and he has changed PhD programs twice now and almost did it a third time. He is in the sciences and has received full funding at the two PhD programs he has been in (and was offered even better funding at the third, but decided to stay in his current program). I don't know of anyone else who has done this though and I am sure it is not common. If the university wants you, then it seems like it is possible to switch -- you just need to have a very solid reason.

[LJK]

I think it is very unlikely that any program will make you pay them back if you choose to leave their program for any reason. If that was the case, there would be a much lower drop out rate among PhD candidates as the financial burden would be worse than sticking it out. Programs want you to get out sooner rather than later if you are ultimately not going to finish - they don't want to keep 'wasting' money on you. I mean check it out, but I suspect it isn't an issue.

If the issue is that you aren't doing the research you want to do and aren't making the networking connections you want to make, moving may make sense for you. It will likely cost you time in terms of years to degree. That said I know of a girl (lab mate of my roommate) who is switching universities in the sciences. She already has her masters and passed qualifiers. She was able to strike a deal where she didn't have to retake classes or re-pass qualifiers at her new university. She also has a university independent scholarship, which may have helped her. But the reason she moved was because her specific subfield is a minority in her current department but she will be moving to a department devoted to her subfield - resources, networking, etc. were her main reasons. This was accepted by her current advisors, all but her main one (who she didn't feel comfortable telling before deciding to move) wrote letters of recommendations for her and supported her choice. She was confident and an advocate for herself and got a sweet deal in not having to redo any of her previous grad work at a new department.

Ultimately what it comes down to is deciding what would be the best course of action for you. Are the resources that important? Does the extra year or two to your degree matter to you? If there is a faculty member other than your main advisor who you think will keep things confidential and you feel comfortable talking with, they may be the best person to contemplate this with. They will know your field, your interests, the relative strengths and weaknesses of the departments, etc.

[Seeking]

The above two examples are from the sciences, where funded projects come to the science departments. But a purely humanities discipline doesn't get funded projects - unless a professor gets some funds on a project and decides to take a PhD candidate, which is very rare in the Humanities.

In general, sciences have more funding than the Humanities.

A PhD candidate in the Humanities is funded by the university from its own resources, or from an outside fellowship, which comes from public resources. If such a candidate moves, it means this money was wasted, when it could have been given to another candidate who would have completed the PhD.

But I do hope what is said above for the sciences holds true for the Humanities as well. So, talking to a reliable faculty member is a good suggestion.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Seeking

[LJK]

The above two examples are from the sciences, where funded projects come to the science departments. But a purely humanities discipline doesn't get funded projects - unless a professor gets some funds on a project and decides to take a PhD candidate, which is very rare in the Humanities.

In general, sciences have more funding than the Humanities.

A PhD candidate in the Humanities is funded by the university from its own resources, or from an outside fellowship, which comes from public resources. If such a candidate moves, it means this money was wasted, when it could have been given to another candidate who would have completed the PhD.

But I do hope what is said above for the sciences holds true for the Humanities as well. So, talking to a reliable faculty member is a good suggestion.

Not all funding in the sciences comes from grants and funded projects - many students in the sciences are funded on TA lines that come from the university like funding in the humanities. In fact, these are all coordinated through the graduate office of the College of Arts and Sciences at my university, crossing the same administrator's desks. Usually funding through the university is contingent on services rendered - teaching, assistant teaching, conducting research. The funding letters don't say 'we are paying you to get your degree,' they say ' we are paying you to teach XXXX for semester XXX." Only degree seeking students are eligible for the positions but the money is based on performing a particular function for the semester. It would be absurd, and probably illegal, for a school to turn around and ask for the money back that they paid for you to do a job. I don't know that there isn't a single school out there that tries to pull that crap, especially if it was some sort of fellowship or scholarship that is more 'free money' than the rest of the types of funding, but it is highly unlikely.

Edited May 2, 2011 by LJK

[IRdreams]

It would also be absurd in light of the fact that there a number of programs that are designed to have a high attrition rate. Such a practice would be especially predatory under that model of admissions. Fellowship money is the only no strings attached funds and I would double check to see if you signed anything related to any fellowships you have taken, but more likely than not the money is not owed back. The argument that drop out rates would be lower is particularly persuasive as a result.

[Seeking]

I want to make two clarifications -

First, I was referring to the fellowship money in the Humanities that comes from the university. In most cases, the first year is funded through fellowship, with no labour expected. TA-ship is money paid for labour from second year onwards, which quite rightly shouldn't be returned.

Second, I am not an advocate of pay-back idea. I am merely saying it's better for the student to discreetly find out how the two universities feel about it - the first univ about the fellowship already paid and the second one about the funding during the first year.

Of course this applies only if the first year was a fellowship year in the first PhD and if the second university normally gives a fellowship for the first year. I'm not referring to the TA-ship here.

Besides, some universities have a fully-funded PhD program for a few Humanities subjects. How would they feel about a fully-funded students leaving without completing the PhD, or about a student who left a program to join them? We don't know the exact funding situation of this poster above.

Funding in the Humanities is a serious problem. The number of students wanting to do PhD in Humanities is always less than that in the Sciences and in professional degrees and not enough funding is available even for these small number of students. In such a situation, the universities naturally like to admit such students for a funded Humanities PhD who would complete the PhD. If a student is inclined to change programs, a university may decide that it's better to give a fellowship to someone who wants to complete the PhD, because funds are scarce in the Humanities.

As it was remarked above, there are not many students who change institutions - there are much less in the Humanities. So, the rule about this is not very explicitly known. Hence, it's always better to find out about this.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Seeking

[juilletmercredi]

In such a situation, the universities naturally like to admit such students for a funded Humanities PhD who would complete the PhD. If a student is inclined to change programs, a university may decide that it's better to give a fellowship to someone who wants to complete the PhD, because funds are scarce in the Humanities.

This is true of any field, though. I'm in the social sciences and no one would admit a student they suspected didn't want to complete the PhD.

Also, I think across fields the chances of being required to pay back funding, regardless of the source (fellowship, TA, RA; institutional or external) is very, very low. In the social sciences students often spend the first year on fellowship, too. It just depends on the program. My very sciency social science program fund students through the grad school and not individual grants. A student may want to ask if they are really worried about that but I doubt it's going to be an issue, ever. Most programs realize that some students (sometimes up to 50% or more) are going to leave the program for various reasons. I've never heard a case of anyone across fields who has been expected to pay back their fellowship regardless of why they left - either to go to another program or just not to finish the PhD at at all.

That said, in my field if you transferred programs most likely the new PhD program would make you take all their coursework and exams. It's sometimes possible to negotiate not having to do that, but I found that that's usually when advisors are moving to new programs and bringing their old students with them - the advisor negotiates that for you. Often students are not as able to do that. I have a friend who transferred to my program because of advisor issues; he was finished with coursework at his old program and our program made him start from square one.

Anyway, I wouldn't do it at this point (having finished coursework and passed one set of my comprehensives), because of the strong possibility I'd be expected to retake courses and exams, but also because of the knowledge that if I want to shift research topics considerably I can do that in a post-doc in my field. Students often do post-docs in related subfields or interdisciplinary areas to boost their research in one field they are interested in but haven't done before.

[Tall Chai Latte]

Can someone comment on how likely it is to transfer one PhD program to another, within the same school, and the PI is affiliated with both?