Had a lab to stay and then not really

[Tall Chai Latte]

The situation is this: I was happy and finally found a lab to stay, and just when me and my PI thought things will go smoothly, the program director refused to sign my paper work of officially joining the department. I had a conversation with my PI, apparently the reason behind this rejection is that the department has a 3-part preliminary exam, one component being physics. Some student(s), who were non-physics major, came in and can't pass the exam (the PI even guaranteed that s/he would pass). And PI wasn't happy, student wasn't happy, and the dept wasn't happy because of the funding difficulty that resulted from failing. As a non-physics major from undergrad, I got red-flagged since the dept is very sensitive about this, that said, I was suggested to find another rotation or somehow bridge the work of current lab to another lab. I am terribly frustrated because at this point in time, finding a rotation is difficult given I turned down all of my other choices to stay in this lab, as well as individual PIs accepting students from their previous rotations.

I guess I don't really have a question in mind to ask, my mind is messy... I feel so lonely in this process... why me? Is transferring to another PhD program even a valid option? Is transferring to another school an option? Or do things just end here even if I find another rotation and don't like it?

[fuzzylogician]

I'm so sorry, Tall Chai Latte:( but you are not alone, you have us here on the GradCafe!

I'm not entirely sure I understood the situation - you failed the exam and therefore they refused to let you join this one lab, but you could still join other labs?

In any event, leaving the program and switching to another PhD program does not sound like a good solution to your problem. If you had other good options that you turned down previously, maybe you should contact those PIs and explain your situation. Hopefully one or more of them can still offer you a spot. Or, even better, if your would-be PI is interested in having you, which it sounds like (s)he is, maybe you could enlist him/her to fight on your behalf so that you could still join the lab? maybe you could be on some kind of provisional status until you pass the exam? Is there a director of graduate studies or someone else who could help? these kinds of decisions can sometimes be reversed if the student is persistent. Don't take it as a final decision, just as a temporary (fixable) setback.

Maybe you should take some time off to absorb this..? it can be a shock to get refused a position like this, and you should not be making big decision in this state. Give yourself permission to be sad, but then after a while it'll be time to come up with a plan and fight to fix this. I can't believe it's come to the point of leaving the program. Hang in there!

Edited May 4, 2011 by fuzzylogician

[wtncffts]

I'm also confused about the situation, exacerbated by the fact that I'm unfamiliar with the way things work in the sciences. I read it as another student failed the physics part of the exam, and, because the OP had a non-physics background, they refused the lab assignment? Is that right? If so, that just seems patently unfair and rather absurd. What does another student's performance have to do with yours?

As an aside, from everything I've read here, I'm quite perplexed by the way things seem to work in the sciences. I mean, I understand the whole labs/PI system, but I'd think being accepted and joining a program means that departments have some responsibility to get their students through. I don't understand how students can just be left out to dry like this, without funding or without a lab, etc. I concede I'm just going by the horror stories here, but it all seems so odd.

[Eigen]

I'm confused too, and I'm in the sciences.

It seems from what I can read that the program no longer allows people without a physics degree to enter the program due to problems with said students in the past. Something about not passing their candidacy exams. And apparently, the PI isn't in a good position to push for it, mostly because he/she has pushed for students to be let in with different backgrounds in the past who have not made it to candidacy, making the department chair not trust the PI's recommendations.

What I'm confused about is what you're doing now. If they wouldn't allow you in the program, how are you working with the PI? Is it an interdisciplinary program or something? It sounds like you're currently in the program, but you say that the program director won't sign the paperwork for you to officially join the department... So where are you now, if not officially in the department?

[newms]

Is there anything you can point to to show that you would be able to pass the Physics exam? I agree with fuzzylogician's advice to not give up. Perhaps you can talk with the PI to see if there is anyway that this could be worked out? Alternatively is there another lab that you could bridge with and still get to work with this PI?

Hang in there! You have us on the gradcafe so you're not alone.

[Tall Chai Latte]

wtncffs had it correct. I haven't taken my prelims yet, because that will come in the following year.. At least that's how I planned it to go in my mind.

My program is an umbrella program encompassing a couple different departments, and students of my program are "free agents" and free to join any of the departments it has affiliation with. Typically, students file for transfer at the end of their second or third rotation (should they choose so) to become a grad student of the department they want to stay in. This is where I am at, I filed transfer to the department I want to stay, but apparently I got red-flagged because some previous students couldn't pass the prelim given their non-physics background while their PI championed them. I don't have a physics background, and the situation Eigen mentioned is at play (my PI apparently advocated for this new rule), for some reason he thought I was a physicist. I have now become "the classic example the type of students the dept wants to avoid".

Right now I am a "free agent", back to square one looking for new rotations to do. I'm sorry to not clearly explain the situation, it's strange to me as well.. A big blow to my stability.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Tall Chai Latte

[fuzzylogician]

wtncffs had it correct. I haven't taken my prelims yet, because that will come in the following year.. At least that's how I planned it to go in my mind.

My program is an umbrella program encompassing a couple different departments, and students of my program are "free agents" and free to join any of the departments it has affiliation with. Typically, students file for transfer at the end of their second or third rotation (should they choose so) to become a grad student of the department they want to stay in. This is where I am at, I filed transfer to the department I want to stay, but apparently I got red-flagged because some previous students couldn't pass the prelim given their non-physics background while their PI championed them. I don't have a physics background, and the situation Eigen mentioned is at play (my PI apparently advocated for this new rule), for some reason he thought I was a physicist. I have now become "the classic example the type of students the dept wants to avoid".

Right now I am a "free agent", back to square one looking for new rotations to do. I'm sorry to not clearly explain the situation, it's strange to me as well.. A big blow to my stability.

Oh, I see. I should have knows that you are not at the point of taking quals yet, sorry about the confusion!

I guess given this policy the question is whether you still want to fight to join that department, and how likely that fight is to succeed. You need to ask yourself how likely you are to pass this exam; it may be hard to know now and you most certainly don't need to reply to that here. But it's one consideration in the decision that you should think through. Maybe that's also a place to consult with the potential PI. What is the PI's assessment of your chance to join the department given the difficulties? It doesn't sound like anyone has anything against you personally so if you can prove that you are different then you should get different treatment than those other students. The other important question is what happens if they don't let you join the department after all. Does you work for that year count toward something? Can the PI still remain your PI, be on your committee, advise your research? Also, are there other department that you could join where you could still do the kind of research you want to do? From what you write it doesn't seem like you absolutely have to join a department to begin with, but there are probably some advantages to doing so.

There should be people in your program whose job it is to help you progress through the program. There are probably also people whose job it is to coordinate with the different programs. Seek them out. Come up with a plan of what you want to do in grad school and ask them for help figuring out the best way to do it. Definitely don't give up yet!

[Eigen]

Ok, that clears up some of my questions, so here's a suggestion for you:

Talk to the PI in physics, and find out if he has some good collaborators in another department that you *could* join. Then approach them about doing a joint appointment of sorts, working between the two labs. You then don't have to join the physics department, but you might find a group that would really benefit from having someone with a strong emphasis in physics research.

I know several friends that are doing "dual advised" PhDs- you get accepted to one department, and then branch out. If the PI in physics would be OK with that (and they probably would, since it will allow them to keep you working with them), then they can help you find someone in a closely related department that will help out.

[cogneuroforfun]

I'm also in an umbrella program, with people joining labs in psychology, psychiatry, cell biology, biochemistry, neurobiology, etc. I'm pretty surprised the lab/department affiliations are so set in stone. Just off the top of my head, we have physics students in neurobiology, neurobiology students in psychology, and labs with cell biology, biochemistry, basic biology, and neurobiology students in them. Is it really the case that you can't officially join a department that fits your background better and still join the lab that fits your interests best?

[MoJingly]

I'm also in an umbrella program, with people joining labs in psychology, psychiatry, cell biology, biochemistry, neurobiology, etc. I'm pretty surprised the lab/department affiliations are so set in stone. Just off the top of my head, we have physics students in neurobiology, neurobiology students in psychology, and labs with cell biology, biochemistry, basic biology, and neurobiology students in them. Is it really the case that you can't officially join a department that fits your background better and still join the lab that fits your interests best?

In some places, you have to be in the department the lab is affiliated with. One of the biggest advantages about the graduate program I chose is that I can literally work with ANY professor in the school, whether or not they are affiliated with my program.

[Tall Chai Latte]

In some places, you have to be in the department the lab is affiliated with. One of the biggest advantages about the graduate program I chose is that I can literally work with ANY professor in the school, whether or not they are affiliated with my program.

Yep that's the case with my program. I have to join the department in order to work with this PI, as he is ONLY affiliated with this particular department. Having him affiliate with another department might be an ever harder battle to fight than getting the current dept to keep me.

[Eigen]

Yep that's the case with my program. I have to join the department in order to work with this PI, as he is ONLY affiliated with this particular department. Having him affiliate with another department might be an ever harder battle to fight than getting the current dept to keep me.

That's why I'd try the option of being co-advised. It's often much easier to set up, you have your "primary" advisor in a department you can join, and the physics PI is your "secondary" advisor, and if you set it up right, the one who's lab you work in primarily.

[Tall Chai Latte]

That's why I'd try the option of being co-advised. It's often much easier to set up, you have your "primary" advisor in a department you can join, and the physics PI is your "secondary" advisor, and if you set it up right, the one who's lab you work in primarily.

Eigen, I am well aware this option exists, and my current PI is supportive of this arrangement. One problem that's hindering this is the lack of availability to join other labs this late into the year, and the whole funding situation.

Thanks guys for answering the entry!

[Eigen]

Eigen, I am well aware this option exists, and my current PI is supportive of this arrangement. One problem that's hindering this is the lack of availability to join other labs this late into the year, and the whole funding situation.

Thanks guys for answering the entry!

Yeah, it can be hard to get into things late in the cycle. That's why I'd suggested a collaborator of your current PI- there might be someone in another related department that he knows well enough to help you through the process of getting into their lab late in the year- especially with him wanting to co-advise you/explain why you're trying to get in late in the cycle.

Good luck!