Re-Applying for a PhD in Neuroscience

[Neuronista]

I've finally got a reply from the last place I've been waiting on. I was rejected (which was quite accepted).

Now, since failure is the opportunity to begin again more intelligently (Henry Ford), I want to begin again, more intelligently

But I need your help. I want to change my whole approach to this thing. How to start? Where to start? What steps should I take?

Here is more about me:

BS pharmacy (3.30). MS pharmacology (3.36). Currently Senior Research Assistant. 2 publications being prepared.

GRE (ahem): 1115 (verbal was horrible ; took the test last minute and had no time to retake. Anyways.).

Research interests: hippocampal synaptic plasticity, learning and memory, Alzheimer's diseases, electrophysiology.

I've applied before to: UT Austin, UT Southwestern, BCM, and UNT. None accepted. (although interviewed by the last two).

My new plan:

1. RETAKE THE GRE!

2. apply to more schools (5-10)

3. ???????????????

4. ???????????????

5. ???????????????

I don't know what to do! What do you think could be done to improve my chances next time?

Questions boggling my mind:

1. Should I take a subject GRE test? ---> not available where I live; need to travel to a nearby country.

2. Should I apply to the same schools or different ones?

3. Should I contact potential advisors? ---> many schools discourage this. It says so on their websites and that's what the lady in the admission office tells me. However, I've seen people still do it. Should I?

4. Are my research interests too narrow? Should I consider schools with faculty with different interests (to increase my options)?

5. My secondary interests include substance abuse, neurobiological basis of psychiatric diseases and psychopharmacology, and epilepsy. Should I mention this? Or would I seem then out-of-focus? In other words, is it better to mention a narrow range of interests or a wider, more diverse one?

6. What is the best way to answer this question: do you want to continue researching the same area as your MS or you'd like to do something different? ---> my approach would be that although I'm more interested in so and so, but I'm also open to learning new/different things etc.

7. What schools am I likely to get in? So far, I'm interested in Brown, MIT, and Wake Forest. Do I have a chance at these? What other suggestions do you have?

8. What other things should I consider when re-applying?

9. Should I really bother and re-apply in the first place? Sometimes I think: what will make me get accepted the 2nd time when I was rejected the 1st?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm kind of lost and I really appreciate your advice!

Edited May 6, 2011 by PhD Pharmacist

[newms]

Hi Phd Pharmacist,

Good to see that you're re-applying Here's my take on your questions:

1) I don't know how important the subject Test is for Neuroscience. Perhaps you can browse the requirements of different programs to see if most places require it or not. You could also ask in the subject forum to see if any Neuroscience people can give you advice on it. Which subject test would you be taking btw?

2) You can re-apply to the same schools - some people have done this and been successful. I didn't re-apply to the same schools I applied to the year before, just because I completely re-evaluated which schools would be good fits for me. It turned out that there were many other schools that would have been better fits for me than the ones I had applied to the year before. Is there a particular reason why you only applied to Texas schools this season? If you're able to consider out of state schools then that would give you more options. I would suggest that you do a complete re-evaluation of the schools you want to apply to in the fall. Perhaps you could consider factors such as: research fit, the reputation of the school, the location of the school, its acceptance rate, the chance of you getting funding, how many PoIs you would have at that school. You could assign some numerical value and rate schools to see which would be the best ones for you to apply to.

3) If the school or prof says don't contact them, then don't. Otherwise it might be worth it to find out if a PoI has space in their lab for new students. It could also be worthwhile to establish a conversation with a PoI before applying. This doesn't always make much of a difference though, as many (most?) people in the sciences get admitted without contacting a PoI before.

4) I'm not in your field, but your research interests don't seem too narrow at all.

5) It's worthwhile to mention your secondary interests since they may give you more chances at getting an admit when the adcomm is considering your application. When I was applying this time around I thought about this as well and was wondering if I should leave out my secondary interest especially when there wasn't a PoI at the school for my secondary interest. I decided to include them though, since they are part of what I ultimately want to do in grad school and beyond.Of course, I made sure to focus on my primary interest.

6) It's perfectly acceptable to continue your MS research (this would probably be better) or to go in a different direction. What would be ideal though, is even if you go in a different direction, you can show how your MS research links to or led you to what you want to do for your PhD.

7) If MIT is any where as competitive in your field as it is in mine (<5% acceptance rate) unfortunately I wouldn't think you'd have a good shot at MIT. I'm not sure about the other places. Perhaps you can check Peterson's that has acceptance rates of different programs.

8) Redo your SoP! I think that this one of the most important things you can do. I started mine from scratch this year and I recommend doing so.

9) Yes! Yes! and Yes! You can do a lot in the next few months to improve your application. Re-do your SoP, get your papers published, do some good research on which schools you want to apply to. We'll be here to help you and I believe that if you keep trying, eventually you'll get accepted. As someone joked - it only takes one place to make a mistake and accept us, huh? Good luck.

[beanbagchairs]

I'd have to echo many of what newms has said. But, for the sake of completeness, I'd give you my take on your questions:

1. If it is too troubling for you, I'd say to forgo the subject GRE test. Redirect those effort and time to polish your publications.

2. Apply only to schools that fit your research interest.

3. I dont know about your field, but I did not contact mine because many of them put up a note on their website saying that they do not wish to be contacted by prospective applicants. They said it in a nicer way, of course.

4 & 5. I dont know your field. So, it may devalue my suggestion regarding your research interest. I dont think your research interest is too narrow. I am not sure if mentioning other research interests will increase your chance. As you said, it may make you look "unfocus".

6. I like your answer.

7. I am not familiar with these programs. Sorry . However, you can try to browse their website/ email them/ look at GC results boards to see how competitive these programs are.

8. a) Remember that rejections do not devalue your self worthiness.

b.) Limit/reduce outside stressor (dont talk about apps to people that do not realize how competitive grad schools are). One of the hardest thing for me during the application process was having a particular colleague that tried to undermine my school choices/interviews requests and mocked the number of schools I applied. I ended up avoiding said colleague to save myself from feeling stressed/down. It worked very well

9. If you think the school fits you, I'd say go ahead to apply again.

Good luck!

Edited May 7, 2011 by beanbagchairs

[nessa]

- yes, definitely retake the GRE. Also, your grades are a little on the low side, but not horrible. If you could have a LOR writer insert something about how your grades don't reflect your abilities for some reason (if that is indeed true), that may help assuage any fears.

- most schools' websites will say if they require a subject test; if it's only recommended and you have to travel, I wouldn't mess with it, but some neuro programs do require it.

- if people say not to contact them, then obviously don't, but otherwise I would drop a short email to POIs. if you can find out how the admissions process works in any detail (meaning, how much say individual professors have), that may help guide this decision. At some schools, unless someone is on the adcom they don't have much say, and unless they are really really interested in you contacting won't help. at other schools where they may have more say, an email may make a big difference. Plus, the person you contact may always be on the adcom...

- your research interests seem fine, but the schools you applied to (all in TX) may look suspicious. they may wonder if you actually want to study at the school or if you're just applying everywhere in an area. If you are really set on staying in an area, throwing in a couple apps to schools farther away may still help with this.

- try to get those publications out! was your master's thesis publishable? You do have a lot of experience in the field, but with few publications that may be a warning sign (true or not) that you're not a productive publisher.

good luck!

ETA: how did the interviews go? did you pick up any odd vibes? the fact that you interviewed at half the schools you applied to is a good sign, but try to figure out why they liked you enough to interview but not enough to admit you.

Edited May 8, 2011 by nessa

[Neuronista]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply! Your advice is very helpful

I don't know how important the subject Test is for Neuroscience. Perhaps you can browse the requirements of different programs to see if most places require it or not. You could also ask in the subject forum to see if any Neuroscience people can give you advice on it. Which subject test would you be taking btw?

Programs either mention nothing about the GRE subject test, or they say it's "not required but preferred" or "recommended". But they don't suggest any particular subjects. I think if I were to take a subject test, it would either be in biology or psychology (although I prefer biology more because it's more related to my background in pharmacy and pharmacology).

Is there a particular reason why you only applied to Texas schools this season? If you're able to consider out of state schools then that would give you more options.

Well, I was hoping to attend a school in Texas because I have family there. But since it didn't work out, I'm now looking for options in other states too.

I would suggest that you do a complete re-evaluation of the schools you want to apply to in the fall. Perhaps you could consider factors such as: research fit, the reputation of the school, the location of the school, its acceptance rate, the chance of you getting funding, how many PoIs you would have at that school. You could assign some numerical value and rate schools to see which would be the best ones for you to apply to.

I like the "numerical value" idea. Will do!

If MIT is any where as competitive in your field as it is in mine (<5% acceptance rate) unfortunately I wouldn't think you'd have a good shot at MIT. I'm not sure about the other places. Perhaps you can check Peterson's that has acceptance rates of different programs.

I didn't know Peterson's provides acceptance rates? How do I find them?

I know with stats like mine it is very unlikely to get into any of the top 10 programs in the field. I know MIT is, but there are a couple of people there I'd like to work with because their research is very close to what I've done for my MS (does this make any difference?). Otherwise, I'd really like to get into a program ranking somewhere in the top 20 - 25 (or 30 max.).

We'll be here to help you and I believe that if you keep trying, eventually you'll get accepted. As someone joked - it only takes one place to make a mistake and accept us, huh? Good luck.

Thank you so much for the help and for giving me hope . Indeed, one good acceptance is all what we need!

Edited May 8, 2011 by PhD Pharmacist

[Neuronista]

I dont know about your field, but I did not contact mine because many of them put up a note on their website saying that they do not wish to be contacted by prospective applicants. They said it in a nicer way, of course.

Exactly! This is what made me kind of reluctant to contact them. But here on the forum I find almost everyone talking about contacting potential advisors. So thought maybe was missing out something? But glad to know I'm not alone not to contact anyone

8. a) Remember that rejections do not devalue your self worthiness.

b.) Limit/reduce outside stressor (dont talk about apps to people that do not realize how competitive grad schools are). One of the hardest thing for me during the application process was having a particular colleague that tried to undermine my school choices/interviews requests and mocked the number of schools I applied. I ended up avoiding said colleague to save myself from feeling stressed/down. It worked very well

I'm now having a hard time trying to figure out a way to break the news the everyone (parents, LOR writers, advisors, etc). I haven't told anyone about my rejections yet and I've been trying to avoid the question when being asked. I know I must tell them at some point, but how? Maybe I should just face it and state it straight!

[chaospaladin]

Continuing your research is also an option while you reapply. Also I suggest applying more to lower ranked programs with research areas that interest you too.

[Neuronista]

- yes, definitely retake the GRE. Also, your grades are a little on the low side, but not horrible. If you could have a LOR writer insert something about how your grades don't reflect your abilities for some reason (if that is indeed true), that may help assuage any fears.

This is very good advice. How come we've never thought of this before (my LOR writers and I)? Looking at my grades and test scores, I'm just your average B student. Nothing special (I wasn't really a good test-taker). But most of those who've worked with me in a lab did compliment how well I do in research, especially at learning new techniques and software and academic/scientific writing. My advisor can mention this in the LOR.

most schools' websites will say if they require a subject test; if it's only recommended and you have to travel, I wouldn't mess with it, but some neuro programs do require it.

Yes. All programs I've looked at so far say it's only "preferred" or "recommended". But I thought if I could study hard enough for it to get good scores, maybe that will balance out my not-so-high GPA.

if people say not to contact them, then obviously don't, but otherwise I would drop a short email to POIs. if you can find out how the admissions process works in any detail (meaning, how much say individual professors have), that may help guide this decision. At some schools, unless someone is on the adcom they don't have much say, and unless they are really really interested in you contacting won't help. at other schools where they may have more say, an email may make a big difference. Plus, the person you contact may always be on the adcom...

Makes very good sense. I'll try to seek out info about the admission process then.

- your research interests seem fine, but the schools you applied to (all in TX) may look suspicious. they may wonder if you actually want to study at the school or if you're just applying everywhere in an area. If you are really set on staying in an area, throwing in a couple apps to schools farther away may still help with this.

I've never thought of it this way! But again, only one program required to mention other schools I've applied to. Is there any other way they would know?

This time I'm trying to look for schools in other places too. I'm try to have a wider range of schools in terms of rankings and locations.

- try to get those publications out! was your master's thesis publishable? You do have a lot of experience in the field, but with few publications that may be a warning sign (true or not) that you're not a productive publisher.

I'm doing my best! Just finished one manuscript and started drafting the other. These are actually from my MS thesis. I have one review published in a locally published journal (which I know is not of much value, but I still mentioned it).

ETA: how did the interviews go? did you pick up any odd vibes? the fact that you interviewed at half the schools you applied to is a good sign, but try to figure out why they liked you enough to interview but not enough to admit you.

I felt my interviews went OK. I even felt that I was likely to get into one of those programs after the interview because the interviewers seemed to be giving me some kind of approval or something. I don't know. Any interview tips?

Yes, I just remembered something. How should I reply when an interviewer asks me why my grades are lower towards the end of my bachelor's degree but where excellent in the first 3 years (which is my case)?

I thought I should be frank about it and just say I'm not good at taking exams because I get stressed out at times, especially with the heavier course load in the final years compared to the first years (this might have given them the impression that I don't handle stress well. But I couldn't think of anything else to say )

What would be the best way to answer such question ?

Thanks

Edited May 8, 2011 by PhD Pharmacist

[Neuronista]

Continuing your research is also an option while you reapply. Also I suggest applying more to lower ranked programs with research areas that interest you too.

What ranking range should I aim at? I'm thinking of applying to schools ranked somewhere between 11-30 in the field. Fair enough?

[nessa]

Yes, I just remembered something. How should I reply when an interviewer asks me why my grades are lower towards the end of my bachelor's degree but where excellent in the first 3 years (which is my case)?

I thought I should be frank about it and just say I'm not good at taking exams because I get stressed out at times, especially with the heavier course load in the final years compared to the first years (this might have given them the impression that I don't handle stress well. But I couldn't think of anything else to say )

What would be the best way to answer such question ?

I would say this is an issue- from what I've heard, a low GPA the first few years with improvement later on is better than having a bad last year. The classes the last year of undergrad and in your Master's are more similar to grad school, so if you had difficulty with them that would have been a bad sign. Also, you will be stressed in a PhD program so if you can't handle it now, you need to learn! If you have examples of how you have since learned to handle stress or otherwise can cope with a heavy course/research load, that may help assuage any concerns.

[cogneuroforfun]

It sounds like you're doing the right things to improve your chances next year. I would only emphasize two things:

1) Apply more broadly! I know you're planning on doing this, and that is essential. If you want a job in academia especially, you'll never get to be very picky about where you live. Basically anywhere that offers you a TT job has to be a good enough location for you. Family is certainly important, but you pretty much have to go wherever is the best fit and gives you the best chance at future employment/success.

2) I'm surprised that many PIs/departments dissuaded you from contacting potential advisors. Look at it this way, if you apply to a program to work with one or two faculty and they don't have room for a new student, then you've wasted your application. The research fit could be great, you could be competitive for the program, but no room in a lab = no room for you. Since you have specific research interests, this is a real concern. Besides letting you gauge whether your labs of interest have space for you, contacting PIs also shows your interest and gets your name out there. Several faculty (not on adcomms) have told me they typically keep track of the people who have contacted them and specifically ask to look at their applications when they come in. While they don't have the final say about who gets admitted, they can tell ad comms of their interest and act as an advocate for applicants.

Unless a PI specifically says not to contact them, I would go for it.

[Neuronista]

I would say this is an issue- from what I've heard, a low GPA the first few years with improvement later on is better than having a bad last year. The classes the last year of undergrad and in your Master's are more similar to grad school, so if you had difficulty with them that would have been a bad sign. Also, you will be stressed in a PhD program so if you can't handle it now, you need to learn! If you have examples of how you have since learned to handle stress or otherwise can cope with a heavy course/research load, that may help assuage any concerns.

When I come to think of it now, it does seem to be an issue. I'm not sure how to make up for this other than in an LOR. Need to think about it.

Research load is not a problem for me. I'm currently working on 2 projects in 2 different (but somewhat related) fields and seem to be doing well (so far). My problem is that exams used to freak me out.

[nessa]

When I come to think of it now, it does seem to be an issue. I'm not sure how to make up for this other than in an LOR. Need to think about it.

Research load is not a problem for me. I'm currently working on 2 projects in 2 different (but somewhat related) fields and seem to be doing well (so far). My problem is that exams used to freak me out.

well, in that case, explaining you have test anxiety may help (vs. just saying you were stressed overall). Make sure you come across as someone who can handle the inevitable stress well.

[Neuronista]

Thank you all for your very helpful advice

I have another question about contacting POIs

What if I contact several profs (different places) and I happen to get accepted into more than one program. Ultimately, I'll have to choose only one. How would I do that? I mean, how do I tell the other(s) that I'm sorry but I will not attend their program, after all the correspondence etc?

Also, what if I do join their program but get more interested in someone else's work, for example during lab rotations?

Thanks!

[newms]

Thank you all for your very helpful advice

I have another question about contacting POIs

What if I contact several profs (different places) and I happen to get accepted into more than one program. Ultimately, I'll have to choose only one. How would I do that? I mean, how do I tell the other(s) that I'm sorry but I will not attend their program, after all the correspondence etc?

Thanks!

That would be a good problem to have! Profs expect that we will be choosing between different programs so when that time comes, you can just send them an email (or phone call), thank them for the opportunity they gave you, let them know that you felt that X school was a better fit and that you'll be attending X university instead. They won't take it personally and will probably wish you all the best.

Also, what if I do join their program but get more interested in someone else's work, for example during lab rotations?

This could be awkward, but it really depends on the department. When I was being recruited by the school I chose, more than one person (including my PoI) told me that there would be no hard feelings or problems if I decided I wanted to switch groups later on. I would imagine that's not the case at all programs, so that's something you can ask about when you have offers to consider.

I just notice that you had asked about the Peterson's acceptance rates. Did you find them?

Edited May 17, 2011 by newms

[Neuronista]

Thank you, newms!

I really wish I'd have a problem of the sort next season Fingers crossed.

I didn't find the rankings at that time, then I gave up!

Can you please tell me how?

[newms]

Thank you, newms!

I really wish I'd have a problem of the sort next season Fingers crossed.

I didn't find the rankings at that time, then I gave up!

Can you please tell me how?

Peterson's has profiles of graduate programs here: http://www.petersons...te-schools.aspx Just search for the school and department that you are interested in and they have information such as the acceptance rate at that program. Keep in mind that they seem to combine the Masters and PhD programs, so if they say that 30% of applicants were accepted, that means 30% of Master's and PhD applicants combined were accepted. It's not perfect, but can have some use.

Edited May 17, 2011 by newms

[Neuronista]

Peterson's has profiles of graduate programs here: http://www.petersons...te-schools.aspx Just search for the school and department that you are interested in and they have information such as the acceptance rate at that program. Keep in mind that they seem to combine the Masters and PhD programs, so if they say that 30% of applicants were accepted, that means 30% of Master's and PhD applicants combined were accepted. It's not perfect, but can have some use.

Found! Thank you

[Neuronista]

Another question if you don't mind.

I am currently working as a research assistant in a pharmaceutical chemistry lab. We synthesize compounds with various potential biological activities: antibacterial, antihypertensive, and also antiepileptic. Those antiepileptics are tested in the neuroscience lab where I did my MS (but that was not my project, though).

This work is obviously not directly neuroscience-related. But does it still count towards my research experience?

Do you think someone might wonder why I chose this position since it's not really related to my research interests and it may not add much to my knowledge or skills needed for a neuroscience PhD?

The answer to that is that I did not find a better job at the time I was doing my job-hunting. The PI in this chemistry lab was my undergrad supervisor and knows me well so he hired me (and I think I'm doing well in this new field to me). No positions in neuroscience labs where available at the time, and a job is better than no job at all.

Should I explain this in my SOP? Or should I just skip this part and mention nothing about my current job (adcoms may consider it a weakness in my profile?). I could just say that I'm currently working to publish papers from my MS thesis (which is true). Or do you think I should just mention my job with no need for justification?

Thanks

[newms]

Another question if you don't mind.

I am currently working as a research assistant in a pharmaceutical chemistry lab. We synthesize compounds with various potential biological activities: antibacterial, antihypertensive, and also antiepileptic. Those antiepileptics are tested in the neuroscience lab where I did my MS (but that was not my project, though).

This work is obviously not directly neuroscience-related. But does it still count towards my research experience?

Do you think someone might wonder why I chose this position since it's not really related to my research interests and it may not add much to my knowledge or skills needed for a neuroscience PhD?

The answer to that is that I did not find a better job at the time I was doing my job-hunting. The PI in this chemistry lab was my undergrad supervisor and knows me well so he hired me (and I think I'm doing well in this new field to me). No positions in neuroscience labs where available at the time, and a job is better than no job at all.

Should I explain this in my SOP? Or should I just skip this part and mention nothing about my current job (adcoms may consider it a weakness in my profile?). I could just say that I'm currently working to publish papers from my MS thesis (which is true). Or do you think I should just mention my job with no need for justification?

Thanks

This is definitely not a weakness and there is no need to justify your current job. You could however, just note that you wanted to pursue a research opportunity in neuroscience but one wasn't available at the time. I think that even though this position is in a different field, it will still help you because much of STEM fields tend to be interdisciplinary nowadays so your pharmaceutical chemistry research may even be positive for your application. In your SoP, you should probably focus on more relevant research experiences that you have had, but you can still mention this current position - just try to tie it in to the narrative of what you want to research in grad school and why.

[starmaker]

I am currently working as a research assistant in a pharmaceutical chemistry lab. We synthesize compounds with various potential biological activities: antibacterial, antihypertensive, and also antiepileptic. Those antiepileptics are tested in the neuroscience lab where I did my MS (but that was not my project, though).

This work is obviously not directly neuroscience-related. But does it still count towards my research experience?

It is extremely common for neuro grad students to come from fields other than neuro. And your research, while not directly neuro, is certainly relevant (in terms of providing a useful research background) for many subfields of neuro (like neurochemistry and neuropharmacology). Yes, this will count as research experience.

[Neuronista]

Thank you newms and starmaker! Gave me relief