Guns on campus: Where do you stand?

[rising_star]

Of course gun carryers do not INTEND on using them.

I said I wasn't going to comment again but, I kind of have to. Umm, seriously? There are plenty of gun carriers that intend to use them. Case in point: Jared Lee Loughner. He didn't just carry the gun to Safeway because the laws in Arizona allow him to do so. He carried it there intending to use it to kill someone.

[hejduk]

I don't live in a utopian society where everyone is peaceful. There are people who threaten and harm and steal from others. Until then, it's a good idea to stay protected. Even then, when everyone sing kumbaya in peaceful harmony, I may just like to have a gun for the hell of it cause I think it looks cool. Whatever. Live and let live, and lets stop trying to control other people's choices!

I fear this is where the conversation breaks into madness (we've done pretty well not to so far!). I don't think the conversation is so much about controlling other people's choices, as trying to ensure a safe environment. Whether carry or no carry, I think it's in the pubic's best interest to have a forum where to voice and determine when and where, if at all, carrying a gun is sensible.

I complete appreciate everyone's opinions and posts (love, love, love Grad Cafe!). God love our freedom of speech and abilities to disagree.

[ZeeMore21]

We can keep going on pretending that gun violence is rare and doesn't happen that often....but in reality people die everyday from guns, no propaganda here. That's all I have to say.

[Eigen]

Sure. But how many of those deaths were accidents? How many were related to known criminals (ie, would have guns even if they were restricted)? I live in New Orleans. There's quite a bit of gun-related violence. Very little of it can be traced back to lawfully owned weapons, or those without prior convictions.

And while gun related crimes get a lot more media, far more people die in car accidents due to unsafe drivers than to discharging firearms. I think more people die to drunk drivers than due to firearms, even. If we're looking for sources of human-caused injury, I don't think firearms are that high up on the list- especially those that are legally and legitimately owned.

[ZeeMore21]

I see where you are going Eigen...but it seems just too easy to discard the fact that gun violence is a very serious issue by offering up drunk driving as a counterweight. A life is a life, and regardless of whether people get killed by drunk drivers more than guns, at the end of the day, someone's son, father, mother, sister is gone forever due to gun violence. I've had a friend's brother die on my street due to gun violence, so this is a very serious issue for me....knowing that drunk driving might be more dangerous/common than gun violence doesn't really tackle the real issue here. Regardless of whether crimes are committed with legally or illegally purchased guns, I definitely believe that current laws are making guns way too accessible.

I think that too often we let politics get in the way from realizing how delicate life is...I don't think someone's liberty to carry a weapon in public places should supersede someone's right to feel safe as a citizen in this country. Obviously, not all gun-carrying individuals are violent. But I shouldn't have to sit with complete strangers in college classrooms who have guns hanging out of their pockets, I honestly would not have the peace of mind to make it through a class session. With this in mind, I think that guns could possibly get in the way of a healthy learning environment. If people want to be able to have guns in their homes, that is fine by me. However, I don't think that people who may be uncomfortable with the presence of guns (and rightfully so) should be forced to be surrounded by them on a daily basis. They have rights too.

Edited June 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[MoJingly]

Personally, I've lived around guns pretty much my whole life. I grew up in the country, I learned to shoot quite early (5 or 6), and have owned guns since not much older. The dangers inherent in guns were drilled into me from an early age, as was being safe and responsible with them and around them. Also included in these lessons were points about keeping a check on your temper and staying in control when you were around them- clear mind, lots of thought, etc. Most of my friends that were raised in similar environments have similar opinions about guns- if they're used properly, they aren't that unsafe, and we have no particular "fear" (as some seem to have) that leads to us feeling unsafe around people who are armed.

On the other hand, I had a fair number of friends who grew up without any contact with guns, and most of them seem to have very different opinions about them- much more tentative, as well as a greater deal of apprehension about trusting "anyone" to own a gun. And most of the time, I can understand where they're coming from. Similarly, I have friends from Nepal who are petrified of dogs- they only dogs they were ever around were completely feral, with a high incidence of rabies. They know that the miniature Dachshund likely won't do much damage, but how we're raised has a significant impact on our opinions and what we're comfortable.

I completely agree. I grew up around guns as well. I took lessons, I understand them, and I know how to use them. A gun is a tool. Mistakes always happen, but in the hands of somebody who knows how to use them, a gun is not the time-bomb that some seem to think it is. The gun argument is always tricky, because unless you have been in that shooting-culture for a long time, they are intimidating. And it's understandable!

Just as an aside comment, I recently bought a house. I am not stupid, and know that a 23 yr-old girl alone in a small house can be a sitting target. I have a 20-gauge shotgun in my bedroom closet and I sleep much MUCH better knowing that it is there if I need it. The sound of a racking shot gun is the universal signal for "get out of my home and don't try to hurt me."

[Eigen]

I see where you are going Eigen...but it seems just too easy to discard the fact that gun violence is a very serious issue by offering up drunk driving as a counterweight. A life is a life, and regardless of whether people get killed by drunk drivers more than guns, at the end of the day, someone's son, father, mother, sister is gone forever due to gun violence. I've had a friend's brother die on my street due to gun violence, so this is a very serious issue for me....knowing that drunk driving might be more dangerous/common than gun violence doesn't really tackle the real issue here. Regardless of whether crimes are committed with legally or illegally purchased guns, I definitely believe that current laws are making guns way too accessible.

I think that too often we let politics get in the way from realizing how delicate life is...I don't think someone's liberty to carry a weapon in public places should supersede someone's right to feel safe as a citizen in this country. Obviously, not all gun-carrying individuals are violent. But I shouldn't have to sit with complete strangers in college classrooms who have guns hanging out of their pockets, I honestly would not have the peace of mind to make it through a class session. With this in mind, I think that guns could possibly get in the way of a healthy learning environment. If people want to be able to have guns in their homes, that is fine by me. However, I don't think that people who may be uncomfortable with the presence of guns (and rightfully so) should be forced to be surrounded by them on a daily basis. They have rights too.

I'm not trying to discount it, but it's just a question of how far you take the argument. Statistically, you could argue that a large portion of deaths are the indirect result of alcohol. I would feel safer if people weren't allowed to drink for that reason. Should your personal liberty of being able to drink supersede my right to feel safe?

No one has a right to feel safe. They have a right to *be* safe, but you can take the argument of what makes someone "feel" safe to all sorts of places that really aren't valid. And you aren't forcing someone to be surrounded by them... Some colleges allow firearms, others don't- you can choose to attend one or the other. No one is forcing you to be surrounded by guns. But again, I don't feel that anyone has a right to "feel safe". I think it would be great if people felt safe most places, but that's a much more personal issue to deal with, not really something you can make laws based around.

And as for guns hanging out of their pockets.... The point of concealed carry is that it has to be concealed.

And being as you have to be at least 21 for a concealed carry permit in most states, the majority of college students wouldn't even be able to get a permit.

And as for trying to diminish gun violence... I'm actually trying to increase the awareness of other types of violence. It is a tragic thing in our lives when someone dies- whether it was from a drunk driver, a gun, a knife, a bar fight, or even drug and alcohol overdose. I find our society tends to hold up death as a result of firearms as some sort of "greater" tragedy than the others, and I'm at a loss for why- either way, someone has been taken from their family and friends. And it's not as if they are the statistically greatest chance, either.

Edited June 28, 2011 by Eigen

[ZeeMore21]

I completely agree. I grew up around guns as well. I took lessons, I understand them, and I know how to use them. A gun is a tool. Mistakes always happen, but in the hands of somebody who knows how to use them, a gun is not the time-bomb that some seem to think it is. The gun argument is always tricky, because unless you have been in that shooting-culture for a long time, they are intimidating. And it's understandable!

Just as an aside comment, I recently bought a house. I am not stupid, and know that a 23 yr-old girl alone in a small house can be a sitting target. I have a 20-gauge shotgun in my bedroom closet and I sleep much MUCH better knowing that it is there if I need it. The sound of a racking shot gun is the universal signal for "get out of my home and don't try to hurt me."

I see your point of wanting to protect yourself in your own home MoJingly, since I am a 23 year old female myself. Like I said in my other post, guns should be kept at home...I don't understand why guns need to be brought onto campus. Just seems unnecessary and detrimental to an overall feeling of safety on campus.

[ZeeMore21]

I'm not trying to suggest that gun deaths are more important than other deaths due to violence. A life is a life, so I would never say that. I think what makes me angry about deaths due to gun violence is the fact that people who support current gun laws don't feel the need to address the high level of murders that result from gun violence. We can talk about deaths due to stabbings and bar fights all we want, but the fact is that most murders are due to guns. There must be a reason why the United States has a higher level of crime in comparison to other countries...and it surely is that fact that guns are way too accessible in this country. It is so much easier to take someone's life away with a gun.

The reason why I have heightened sensitivity when I hear about gun violence isn't because death by gun is more newsworthy than death by other types of violence. The reason is because nobody wants to admits that there is a serious gun problem in this country. As soon as anyone mentions this, people start trying to legitimize gun ownership by pointing to other types of deaths. People celebrate gun ownership but don't want to take the time to seriously thing about the consequences of making guns easily accessible.

As far as limiting guns on campus to 21 year old college students....I'm not sure we can say that all 21 year olds are at the same maturity level to handle guns, that's a fact.

I'm not trying to discount it, but it's just a question of how far you take the argument. Statistically, you could argue that a large portion of deaths are the indirect result of alcohol. I would feel safer if people weren't allowed to drink for that reason. Should your personal liberty of being able to drink supersede my right to feel safe?

No one has a right to feel safe. They have a right to *be* safe, but you can take the argument of what makes someone "feel" safe to all sorts of places that really aren't valid. And you aren't forcing someone to be surrounded by them... Some colleges allow firearms, others don't- you can choose to attend one or the other. No one is forcing you to be surrounded by guns. But again, I don't feel that anyone has a right to "feel safe". I think it would be great if people felt safe most places, but that's a much more personal issue to deal with, not really something you can make laws based around.

And as for guns hanging out of their pockets.... The point of concealed carry is that it has to be concealed.

And being as you have to be at least 21 for a concealed carry permit in most states, the majority of college students wouldn't even be able to get a permit.

And as for trying to diminish gun violence... I'm actually trying to increase the awareness of other types of violence. It is a tragic thing in our lives when someone dies- whether it was from a drunk driver, a gun, a knife, a bar fight, or even drug and alcohol overdose. I find our society tends to hold up death as a result of firearms as some sort of "greater" tragedy than the others, and I'm at a loss for why- either way, someone has been taken from their family and friends. And it's not as if they are the statistically greatest chance, either.

Edited June 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[Two Espressos]

If carrying a gun is not peaceful, then carrying my fists is also not peaceful, considering I could, if I chose to, use my fists to harm someone.

Positions for or against gun control on college campuses aside, this is a faulty analogy. One is born with their fists; they are parts of the body. Guns are not. You cannot elect to not carry your fists without causing severe physical pain. Our hands also have hundreds of uses beyond causing violence. Guns do not have these multitudinous uses. Guns shoot (whether they are used properly or improperly, they have no other function).

Anyways, I do not support legal, concealed guns on college campuses. I really see no benefit in having concealed firearms on campus, and I do not think that restricting the possession of guns on campus is a breach of gun owners' rights.

[Eigen]

Positions for or against gun control on college campuses aside, this is a faulty analogy. One is born with their fists; they are parts of the body. Guns are not. You cannot elect to not carry your fists without causing severe physical pain. Our hands also have hundreds of uses beyond causing violence. Guns do not have these multitudinous uses. Guns shoot (whether they are used properly or improperly, they have no other function).

Anyways, I do not support legal, concealed guns on college campuses. I really see no benefit in having concealed firearms on campus, and I do not think that restricting the possession of guns on campus is a breach of gun owners' rights.

I completely agree with your first paragraph.

On your second point though, I have a question: would it be OK if the school was revoking any other constitutional rights while on campus? There seems to be an outcry every time a campus is seen as stifling the free speech of it's professors or students, but it's not seen as a breach of gun owners rights to prevent them from "bearing arms".

[Two Espressos]

I completely agree with your first paragraph.

On your second point though, I have a question: would it be OK if the school was revoking any other constitutional rights while on campus? There seems to be an outcry every time a campus is seen as stifling the free speech of it's professors or students, but it's not seen as a breach of gun owners rights to prevent them from "bearing arms".

Well, I usually support the freedom of speech (most people do), but some kinds of speech shouldn't be constitutionally protected. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't some forms of speech illegal/not constitutionally protected (hate speech, slander, etc)? As thus, if, for example, a professor regularly employs racist slurs out of any defensible context, and the university chooses to fire him, I wouldn't find that to be a breach of a constitutional right. The aforementioned professor has the right to hold racist views, but I do not see how he has a right to employ them in the classroom.

[ZeeMore21]

Definitely agree here....people can choose to carry guns if they want, colleges have the right not to permit them to attend campus. That's the way it should be.

I don't understand Eigen...are you saying that every institution must agree to allow students to carry concealed weapons? How about an institution's decision to ban weapons? Is that an affront to the constitutional rights of gun owners? Again, colleges should be the ones making the decisions on behalf of the opinions of the campus community.

Well, I usually support the freedom of speech (most people do), but some kinds of speech shouldn't be constitutionally protected. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't some forms of speech illegal/not constitutionally protected (hate speech, slander, etc)? As thus, if, for example, a professor regularly employs racist slurs out of any defensible context, and the university chooses to fire him, I wouldn't find that to be a breach of a constitutional right. The aforementioned professor has the right to hold racist views, but I do not see how he has a right to employ them in the classroom.

Edited June 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[ZeeMore21]

I'm not trying to discount it, but it's just a question of how far you take the argument. Statistically, you could argue that a large portion of deaths are the indirect result of alcohol. I would feel safer if people weren't allowed to drink for that reason. Should your personal liberty of being able to drink supersede my right to feel safe?

No one has a right to feel safe. They have a right to *be* safe, but you can take the argument of what makes someone "feel" safe to all sorts of places that really aren't valid. And you aren't forcing someone to be surrounded by them... Some colleges allow firearms, others don't- you can choose to attend one or the other. No one is forcing you to be surrounded by guns. But again, I don't feel that anyone has a right to "feel safe". I think it would be great if people felt safe most places, but that's a much more personal issue to deal with, not really something you can make laws based around.

And as for guns hanging out of their pockets.... The point of concealed carry is that it has to be concealed.

And being as you have to be at least 21 for a concealed carry permit in most states, the majority of college students wouldn't even be able to get a permit.

And as for trying to diminish gun violence... I'm actually trying to increase the awareness of other types of violence. It is a tragic thing in our lives when someone dies- whether it was from a drunk driver, a gun, a knife, a bar fight, or even drug and alcohol overdose. I find our society tends to hold up death as a result of firearms as some sort of "greater" tragedy than the others, and I'm at a loss for why- either way, someone has been taken from their family and friends. And it's not as if they are the statistically greatest chance, either.

Also, I never answered your rebuttal here. Yes, people are allowed to drink alcohol, but establishments have the right to ban people with alcoholic beverages....it's their right to do so. So basically, their right to feel safe is a priority as opposed to individual's rights to drink. Similarly, institutions should have the same right to ban guns on campuses. I don't know when gun carriers had supreme authority to tell institutions what they can or cannot do.

Edited June 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[Eigen]

I actually don't have a problem with either campuses preventing some sorts of speech (as mentioned above) nor do I have a problem with them preventing the carry of firearms on campus (as I mentioned on the first page of this thread). I just find it an interesting discussion, and I think that problems that relate to the restriction of an individuals freedom should be well discussed and explored.

I was simply asking what Two Espresso's opinion on the former was, as I find that people routinely seem to give less "weight" to the second amendment than the first amendment, as they think it is a less important right. In my mind, you have to look at the two equally, even if you don't like the second amendment- it's still one of the basic rights of our country. By his answer, he considers the two relatively equivalent and supports restrictions on either- which is a perfectly legitimate view. I just wanted him to expand on his view a little- it's so hard to get a rounded opinion of someones opinions from message board posts.

And to answer your points:

There are obvious "place and time" restrictions on free speech (not that there haven't been arguments against them from rights groups). I was referring not to hate speech, which is a discussion in and of itself, but rather cases like the adjunct professor who was recently fired for ignoring an informal school gag order to write about an incident on campus... Or many other situations in which faculty and staff have been pressured not to publish unpopular research- heck, our tenure system is even designed to prevent this!

The points of the restriction on free speech are to prevent harm- slander, libel- or public panic (ie, yelling fire in a crowded theater) or disturbing others (driving down a road with a loudspeaker at 2 am in the morning). I fail to see how these situations apply to carrying a gun on campus- if it's concealed, it won't cause a public panic or disturb others, and the gun simply being carried does no harm.

As I mentioned on the first page, there have been cases of businesses being sued (and losing) for not allowing customers to carry concealed weapons in their establishments, as if you have a concealed carry license, you may carry your gun in public. On the other hand, we obviously have public buildings that disallow concealed carry, and that has stood up to challenge.

Universities fall somewhere in the middle, and to my knowledge no university ban has ever reached a court for a decision- which makes it a gray area. They are not really public, government institutions in the sense a courthouse is, but we all would like to think of them as something a little more than a private retail establishment (grocery store, walmart, etc.)

Edited June 28, 2011 by Eigen

[Eigen]

Also, I never answered your rebuttal here. Yes, people are allowed to drink alcohol, but establishments have the right to ban people with alcoholic beverages....it's their right to do so. So basically, their right to feel safe is a priority as opposed to individual's rights to drink. Similarly, institutions should have the same right to ban guns on campuses. I don't know when gun carriers had supreme authority to tell institutions what they can or cannot do.

Just to clarify: an individual has no right to drink.

And there's that allows an establishment to not allow someone to enter who is already inebriated... I could sit outside and drink a 5th of whiskey and then walk into an establishment that does not allow alcohol to be consumed on the premises. Similarly, I could walk into that establishment with a flask in my pocket, or a bottle of wine in my backpack as long as I did not drink it while I was in there.

The establishment can restrict my actions while I am there, not what I bring with me (or inside me). If I'm not acting in a disorderly fashion (disrupting others), and I'm not currently consuming the alcohol, there's nothing against simply having it with me. In a similar fashion, it's not carrying the gun that would be a problem, but flashing it around (disturbing others) or pulling it out (using it) that would be the problem. This goes back to my point on the (1st?) page.

This is an interesting argument about dry campuses, however- no one has ever challenged the right of a campus to prevent alcohol from being stored or consumed anywhere on its campus, which highlights the differences between a private establishment and a college campus I was mentioning previously.

[Two Espressos]

There are obvious "place and time" restrictions on free speech (not that there haven't been arguments against them from rights groups). I was referring not to hate speech, which is a discussion in and of itself, but rather cases like the adjunct professor who was recently fired for ignoring an informal school gag order to write about an incident on campus...

I'm not familiar with the case you mention. Could you elaborate or point me to a website where I could read up on it?

Or many other situations in which faculty and staff have been pressured not to publish unpopular research- heck, our tenure system is even designed to prevent this!

In these instances, I (and I'm pretty sure ZeeMore21 and others would agree with me) am vehemently opposed to suppressing the academic freedom of faculty/staff who wish to publish unpopular research. This is absolutely intolerable and defiles academia.

The points of the restriction on free speech are to prevent harm- slander, libel- or public panic (ie, yelling fire in a crowded theater) or disturbing others (driving down a road with a loudspeaker at 2 am in the morning). I fail to see how these situations apply to carrying a gun on campus- if it's concealed, it won't cause a public panic or disturb others, and the gun simply being carried does no harm.

Perhaps some form of panic would ensue, though: I for instance would be disturbed with the knowledge that perhaps my classmates may be carrying concealed firearms (similar to what ZeeMore21 previously discussed). I wouldn't say this panic is completely equivalent to yelling fire in a movie theater, but it is similar.

As I mentioned on the first page, there have been cases of businesses being sued (and losing) for not allowing customers to carry concealed weapons in their establishments, as if you have a concealed carry license, you may carry your gun in public. On the other hand, we obviously have public buildings that disallow concealed carry, and that has stood up to challenge.

Universities fall somewhere in the middle, and to my knowledge no university ban has ever reached a court for a decision- which makes it a gray area. They are not really public, government institutions in the sense a courthouse is, but we all would like to think of them as something a little more than a private retail establishment (grocery store, walmart, etc.)

I agree that universities fall somewhere between private businesses and government buildings, but I feel that they fall more towards the latter rather than the former.

[ZeeMore21]

Well doing a bit of research, the majority of K-12 schools don't permit guns on their premises....whether it is concealed or not. To be honest, I don't understand why, for example, one person in a classroom owning a gun has the right to make any decision about how to use it while around others. Just because this student owns a gun doesn't necessarily mean they can make judgment calls on the behalf of others or that they are even mature enough to be carrying one. And I am talking about those carrying guns legally. Like I said before, owning a gun at home is fine...you want to protect yourself and your family, right on. But carrying a gun into the classroom setting is a totally different situation.

[Eigen]

Do you distinguish between public universities and private universities in that sense?

As to the case(s) I was mentioning- here is one: http://chronicle.com/blogs/onhiring/why-i-should-keep-my-mouth-shut-the-2-year-track/28198?sid=pm&utm_source=pm&utm_medium=en

with the following discussion here: http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,77253.0.html

This is actually an adjunct who was released of his contract for writing about life as an adjunct faculty member. He was critical of the institution, and it didn't go over well. I'll see if I can dig up the other case I was referring to later.

I think after your clarifications, I understand your position- you think that carrying a firearm (even concealed) is something that would incite panic (a mild degree) and therefore would be able to be restricted using the same arguments as that against speech used to incite panic (fire in a movie theater).

Moving to a related issue, it seems you are both arguing more for a schools right to restrict guns on campus than for the fact that a campus *should* be a restricted area. As I mentioned, I think a campus probably can restrict the right- but what if the administration chooses to allow them on campus? Is that a problem, or is that also the right of the school?

Edited June 28, 2011 by Eigen

[Eigen]

Well doing a bit of research, the majority of K-12 schools don't permit guns on their premises....whether it is concealed or not. To be honest, I don't understand why, for example, one person in a classroom owning a gun has the right to make any decision about how to use it while around others. Just because this student owns a gun doesn't necessarily mean they can make judgment calls on the behalf of others or that they are even mature enough to be carrying one. And I am talking about those carrying guns legally. Like I said before, owning a gun at home is fine...you want to protect yourself and your family, right on. But carrying a gun into the classroom setting is a totally different situation.

Could you expound a little bit on this? I'm not sure exactly where we're going with this point, being as we've switched from K-12 schools (where those in question are minors (who can't legally own a gun) or those teaching minors, in addition to the fact that they have no choice about their attendance)... You also seem to be making some point about a person in a classroom having a right to make the decision about how they use a gun if they own it.

Of course they have a right to decide how to use it- just as they are responsible for any consequences arising from their use of it. There are any number of judgment calls a person could make that effects the rest of the class, irrespective of whether they have a gun- and in any case, they would have to face any consequences arising from a decision they made.

Perhaps I just wasn't clear on your premise?

[ZeeMore21]

And also....even if guns are concealed, that doesn't necessarily mean that the classroom setting wouldn't be altered in some way. Like Two Espressos stated, the fact that I know that guns are allowed in the classroom would be unsettling for me...especially since most people in the classroom would be complete strangers to me. There would be some shift in the way I handle myself in the classroom, and I don't think I am a minority here. There is nothing wrong with a fear of guns, given the damage they can do in a very short period of time.

[Two Espressos]

Well doing a bit of research, the majority of K-12 schools don't permit guns on their premises....whether it is concealed or not. To be honest, I don't understand why, for example, one person in a classroom owning a gun has the right to make any decision about how to use it while around others. Just because this student owns a gun doesn't necessarily mean they can make judgment calls on the behalf of others or that they are even mature enough to be carrying one. And I am talking about those carrying guns legally. Like I said before, owning a gun at home is fine...you want to protect yourself and your family, right on. But carrying a gun into the classroom setting is a totally different situation.

Ah, I was just going to bring up elementary and secondary education. You beat me to it.

For instance, imagine a student who, due to periods of severe illness, begins his senior year as a 21-year-old. He has a clean background, legally owns a firearm, and has a right-to-conceal permit. Following an anti-gun control logic, why should he be barred from carrying a concealed firearm in his high school?

And yet I feel that many people, even those who support concealed firearms on college campuses, would be opposed to his carrying a concealed firearm to school.

[Two Espressos]

Could you expound a little bit on this? I'm not sure exactly where we're going with this point, being as we've switched from K-12 schools (where those in question are minors (who can't legally own a gun) or those teaching minors, in addition to the fact that they have no choice about their attendance)...

To add to my previous post: consider this 21-year-old goes to a private school, where attendance is optional (imagine that there are several other schools in the area where students could attend). Would you support this student carrying a concealed firearm into his school?

[ZeeMore21]

Could you expound a little bit on this? I'm not sure exactly where we're going with this point, being as we've switched from K-12 schools (where those in question are minors (who can't legally own a gun) or those teaching minors, in addition to the fact that they have no choice about their attendance)... You also seem to be making some point about a person in a classroom having a right to make the decision about how they use a gun if they own it.

Of course they have a right to decide how to use it- just as they are responsible for any consequences arising from their use of it. There are any number of judgment calls a person could make that effects the rest of the class, irrespective of whether they have a gun- and in any case, they would have to face any consequences arising from a decision they made.

Perhaps I just wasn't clear on your premise?

I was simply countering the argument you made that all institutions draw a line between concealed and unconcealed weapons....for the majority of public K-12 schools, no teacher is allowed to carry a concealed weapon...and these would be teachers of the legal age to carry guns. I am not discussing minors here. This was just an example of the fact that just because a gun is concealed, doesn't make people feel safer. These schools see concealed weapons as just as dangerous as those unconcealed.

Edited June 28, 2011 by ZeeMore21

[Eigen]

As I mentioned, I believe there are two major differences:

The first is the inclusion of minors (the majority of the other students). We tend to be much less forgiving of possible breaches of safety when children are concerned.

The second is the fact that the other students are *forced* to be in that class- K-12 schooling is mandatory. Higher ed is not. In addition, most people have far more options for school choice in higher ed than they do in primary and secondary education.

In the case of campuses allowing concealed carry- it's not really a problem in your mind then that anyone actually does carry on campus, but rather that someone *could* carry and be in your class.

Do you honestly expect someone to pull out a concealed weapon and start shooting you because they disagree with your opinions?