2012 App Season Progress

[Timshel]

I'm not sure who is arguing......I was just asking for advice because I have no idea what I'm doing.

[ThePoorHangedFool]

I had assumed from your remark about how you write LoRs for your students that you were the one with the most advice on the subject. Nobody is arguing; I was just precluding a potential squabble over nothing, which these forums can sometimes provoke unintentionally and usually through user miscommunication.

Like this. My mistake for misunderstanding your position.

[Timshel]

Oh, I mean, I was only speaking from my own experience of when my students ask me to write them letters, but I just teach undergrad students as an adjunct faculty at a university, so usually my letters are either to get a job, or a position in some group, or to get into the Honors program, or to get into a different school they want transfer to, or a program that is hard to get into, like our nursing program, so I was just saying that I know that when I try to write those, I try to note specifically the place or thing they are applying for to help them instead of just giving them something generic, but I have NO idea how the PhD thing goes, what kind of letters my recommenders will/should send, which is why I'm constantly on here because I have no idea what I'm doing and I'm always looking for advice.

[BelleOfKilronen]

Hi, Timshel,

Just wanted to second what Truckbasket said RE: generic letters of the "Dear (unspecified) Admissions Committee" variety being the norm. It's thoughtful of you to go the extra step with your students' letters, but it's not going to hurt your application in any way if the letters aren't tailored, even in the most basic way, to each school.

[ThePoorHangedFool]

Just wanted to second what Truckbasket said RE: generic letters of the "Dear (unspecified) Admissions Committee" variety being the norm. It's thoughtful of you to go the extra step with your students' letters, but it's not going to hurt your application in any way if the letters aren't tailored, even in the most basic way, to each school.

First, to Timshel: thanks for explaining all of that, your earlier post makes perfect sense now. : )

However, in regards to the post I quoted above, what BelleofKilronen says is simply not what I've heard from anyone I've ever spoken to about the matter. The specific name of the program or school to which the letter is directed is, at the very least, an element of "tailoring" that if I were on an adcom would pretty much expect to see. It seems to me that not even taking five seconds to insert a school's name or whatever title is relevant to the program is basically a slap in the face that translates to "I literally couldn't be bothered, since this way I got to print out all X number of letters simultaneously and I am just that lazy."

Evidently I'm the minority in this one. I'll just say that the numerous sources I've consulted about this subject, which include professors from a few different generations, current graduate students, an acquaintance who used to work on an adcom until a year or two ago (and the unavoidable standard prep books/websites/etc., all of which I read with several grains of salt between my teeth) ALL agree that some level of tailoring--nothing grand or strenuous, but at least the specific program name if not a bit more for the schools the applicant cares the most about impressing--is definitely helpful when adcoms read through the zillions of LoRs.

[ThePoorHangedFool]

Just remembered this question I've been meaning to ask: Is it worthwhile to send 4 LoRs if the instructions say they demand a "minimum of 3"? Is it worthwhile if they say more specifically that they "need 3"?

Yes. I'm quoting my own post. I still hope someone out there can answer this question for me; I'm not hoping for a certain response so any thoughts you guys have are welcomed.

[Timshel]

Yes. I'm quoting my own post. I still hope someone out there can answer this question for me; I'm not hoping for a certain response so any thoughts you guys have are welcomed.

I'm not sure, but I do know that Cornell's website specifically states "Three letters of recommendation from those persons who best know you and your work are required. Submitting additional letters will not enhance your application."

Also, all of the professors I am asking to write me letters of recommendation are older, and a little off the grid, so I highly doubt they even know what Interfolio is. I don't think I'll bring it up unless they do.

[runonsentence]

More then three letters: you'll find differing opinions on this, I think. There are people who will tell you that even though schools ask for three, they would read four if you sent them. There are others who will tell you that sending extra materials that the committee didn't ask for is a great way to piss them off when they're trying to read stacks and stacks of applications.

I went with the latter advice, even though I was in a tough spot—I found out that one of my letter writers had done a last-minute, less than stellar job on her LoRs for me (and of course, I only discovered this after I'd had them all mailed out). I didn't want to risk annoying a committee, and my other two writers assured me that their letters were good and the rest of my packet was solid. It's possible that some of my adcoms wouldn't have minded a fourth letter, but sending three letters was, I thought, the better thing to do.

[truckbasket]

However, in regards to the post I quoted above, what BelleofKilronen says is simply not what I've heard from anyone I've ever spoken to about the matter. The specific name of the program or school to which the letter is directed is, at the very least, an element of "tailoring" that if I were on an adcom would pretty much expect to see. It seems to me that not even taking five seconds to insert a school's name or whatever title is relevant to the program is basically a slap in the face that translates to "I literally couldn't be bothered, since this way I got to print out all X number of letters simultaneously and I am just that lazy."

That's awesome that your writers are willing to tailor all your individual letters -- you're very fortunate and should totally take advantage of their generosity. Having been on and around several committees, I can tell you that it's not the norm at all, however, as many applicants are applying to multiple programs (like more than ten) and to ask writers to tailor each one might be considered impolite. One thing I can say for certain is that grad programs do not expect tailored letters at all, and definitely won't consider an applicant / applicant's writer to be lazy or issuing any slaps to the face for not doing so simply for the fact that they're read by the same people who also have to write them for their own students, who know firsthand that individual tailoring is out of the question (in most situations) due to time restrictions. Having had direct personal experience with serving on a committee, and having toiled through more than 350 of these letters, I can again confirm that tailoring of LoR is pretty much unheard of and unnecessary. If you can get your writers to do it, that's awesome, and totally go for it; but what the readers are solely looking for is a picture of you (the applicant) and your ability to succeed in a graduate program -- any graduate program -- not just theirs. And in that regard, Interfolio won't work for you because it's geared more toward the standard practice of generic LoR sending, not personalized stuff.

Yes. I'm quoting my own post. I still hope someone out there can answer this question for me; I'm not hoping for a certain response so any thoughts you guys have are welcomed.

Most online applications allow you to enter up to five LoRs in their system. I was very fortunate in that I had several people who wanted to write letters for me, and so I was essentially spoiled for choice. Consequently, most of my prospective programs received more than three letters, and I found out after the fact (during subsequent visits / conversation) that indeed, they were all read and considered. In short, it can't hurt. But if in doubt, maybe contact the program's coordinator and make sure they're okay with it.

I'm not sure, but I do know that Cornell's website specifically states "Three letters of recommendation from those persons who best know you and your work are required. Submitting additional letters will not enhance your application."

I actually applied to Cornell, and that's one program that didn't get letter bombed! If I remember correctly, their online app only allowed for three anyway.

Also, all of the professors I am asking to write me letters of recommendation are older, and a little off the grid, so I highly doubt they even know what Interfolio is. I don't think I'll bring it up unless they do.

I had one just like that! The guy is a brilliant Joyce scholar, but had difficulty with all things techy. Anyhow, when I asked him to write, he mentioned Interfolio, saying that he uses the service so much for submitting letters for his undergrads that he has his own account established with them. Shows how little I knew!

Edited August 9, 2011 by truckbasket

[souslespaves]

As clarification, I was requested to use Interfolio by a professor who has been both director of graduate studies as well as department chair for several nationally-recognized programs. Honestly, I had enough trouble/felt bad enough getting my profs to write and submit one letter on time, keeping track of individual ones for each school would have been a SNAFU.

FWIW, I also got into all but one of the schools I applied to without any tailoring in my letters (and two of them had gone to schools I was applying to). While putting as much effort as possible into making sure your letters of recommendation help you stand out is obviously a plus, that component of my application was notably the only one that wasn't mentioned by the graduate heads that called me - they all only spoke to my SoP, writing sample, and GREs.

[lolopixie]

This will be my second round of applications. I still have to retake the GRE - planning on taking it in September and gauging if I will need to retake it after that. It was my severe weak point in my applications last year. My writing sample is pretty much done. The sample I used last year was a heavily edited research paper from my program, which I then used as the basis for my thesis, so it has been edited to the 500th degree (the chapter I will be pulling). Still need to construct new LORs - and YES it is critical to gear each one to the program you will be applying to. All of my professors have my letters of rec done and updated to include info about my thesis. All I need to do is let them know when they need them. Make sure to give the professors AMPLE time for the letters. I sent my professors the links in September (went ahead and opened all the applications and sent the LOR portion), the earliest one was completed at the end of October. There is definitely a lot of work to do; however, I have a much more condensed list of programs (about 5).

[Timshel]

This will be my second round of applications. I still have to retake the GRE - planning on taking it in September and gauging if I will need to retake it after that. It was my severe weak point in my applications last year. My writing sample is pretty much done. The sample I used last year was a heavily edited research paper from my program, which I then used as the basis for my thesis, so it has been edited to the 500th degree (the chapter I will be pulling). Still need to construct new LORs - and YES it is critical to gear each one to the program you will be applying to. All of my professors have my letters of rec done and updated to include info about my thesis. All I need to do is let them know when they need them. Make sure to give the professors AMPLE time for the letters. I sent my professors the links in September (went ahead and opened all the applications and sent the LOR portion), the earliest one was completed at the end of October. There is definitely a lot of work to do; however, I have a much more condensed list of programs (about 5).

If you don't mind me asking, why is this your second round? Did you not get any acceptances? Do you think it had to do with your GREs? How many places did you apply?

[lolopixie]

If you don't mind me asking, why is this your second round? Did you not get any acceptances? Do you think it had to do with your GREs? How many places did you apply?

No, I did not get in any of the 10 PhD programs I applied to last year. It definitely had to do with my GRE scores - they were horrible, to say the least. I knew that the GRE scores were not good, but I thought that the rest of my application would off-set the bad scores and did not retake them - mistake. One program actually told me in my rejection letter that it was because my GRE scores were not competitive. I'm not saying I would have gotten into every program last year with a better GRE score, but I am certain I would have gotten in somewhere if I would have taken the time to retake. I just didn't have the time - working 40 hours a week, working on applications, writing my thesis. I waited until I came out of my fog of depression to contact programs, and was told that first round cuts they are looking at GPA and GRE (you have to think the ways programs cut 500 applications down to 10). I have a 3.9 GPA, so I knew that is not what did me in. I also have publications, multiple conferences (national and regional), panel chairs, academic awards from my program, and travel grant awards. I personally know 2 other people that did not get into any program they applied to last year, then there were several people on this board, and the people I heard of from other programs. It definitely happens.

[Timshel]

No, I did not get in any of the 10 PhD programs I applied to last year. It definitely had to do with my GRE scores - they were horrible, to say the least. I knew that the GRE scores were not good, but I thought that the rest of my application would off-set the bad scores and did not retake them - mistake. One program actually told me in my rejection letter that it was because my GRE scores were not competitive. I'm not saying I would have gotten into every program last year with a better GRE score, but I am certain I would have gotten in somewhere if I would have taken the time to retake. I just didn't have the time - working 40 hours a week, working on applications, writing my thesis. I waited until I came out of my fog of depression to contact programs, and was told that first round cuts they are looking at GPA and GRE (you have to think the ways programs cut 500 applications down to 10). I have a 3.9 GPA, so I knew that is not what did me in. I also have publications, multiple conferences (national and regional), panel chairs, academic awards from my program, and travel grant awards. I personally know 2 other people that did not get into any program they applied to last year, then there were several people on this board, and the people I heard of from other programs. It definitely happens.

Now I am totally paranoid. My GRE scores are not stellar, and I am planning on retaking it, but I am just so scared that if I don't do well on this retake, I might as well forget it. If you don't mind, could I ask what your scores were? Specifically the verbal? If you don't want to put it out here on the board, could you PM me? I just feel like I could gauge what a deal breaker is. I would really appreciate it.

[ThePoorHangedFool]

I just didn't have the time - working 40 hours a week, working on applications, writing my thesis. I waited until I came out of my fog of depression to contact programs, and was told that first round cuts they are looking at GPA and GRE (you have to think the ways programs cut 500 applications down to 10).

I'm quoting this particular extract because I too am working two jobs (one approaching forty hours a week, the other only a few hours of teaching dance classes, three days a week, but all of them requiring a large amount of planning beforehand). I too am still technically finishing my thesis, although at this point do have all the sections written, only needing to edit, revise, repeat until all sanity lost.

What you've said is essentially one of the handful of opinions/facts I had hoped would never emerge on TGC. These two components are quite literally the two that will be the weakest in my overall application; my LoRs, writing sample(s), and SoPs are all truly competitive and what I would need adcoms to see in order for me to demonstrate my academic potential and capability to succeed in graduate-level programs. My GPA is what it is, and while it's certainly not dismal, it is better understood after reading through its breakdown on my actual transcript (complicated to describe here, but for the most part self-explanatory as a "visual aid" of sorts). I haven't taken the new GRE yet, but my scores on the previous version were, again, not dismal, but not stellar enough to make me stand out. (V: something between 630-650 [so low almost entirely because of the Antonyms, so I'm hopeful for at least a slightly higher V score now that they've been removed]; Q: 560; AW: 5 or 5.5, I've managed to forget.)

So...assuming each section of my GRE scores sees a rise of some level this time around (I forgot to add that I literally didn't study at all last year, as I only really took it because I couldn't get a refund even though I'd decided to postpone applying until this season), but in all likelihood still aren't numbers that immediately advance me through to the next "round" of adcoms' systems, am I fundamentally hopeless in terms of even getting my LoRs, etc., read by anybody out there at any program?

Edited August 27, 2011 by ThePoorHangedFool

[lolopixie]

Yes. I'm quoting my own post. I still hope someone out there can answer this question for me; I'm not hoping for a certain response so any thoughts you guys have are welcomed.

You want to meet the requirements set on the application. If the request asks for (at least) three letters of reference, then you need to send a minimum of three. Some schools specifically state at least three, but no more than five. Sending four would not negatively impact you, but some schools say three and only allow the three on their applications. I would go ahead and open up the applications as soon as possible (I know they aren't really available until September), and see if the system allows for the four. If so, go for it. If not, take your top 3 picks of LORs.

[lolopixie]

My GPA is what it is, and while it's certainly not dismal, it is better understood after reading through its breakdown on my actual transcript (complicated to describe here, but for the most part self-explanatory as a "visual aid" of sorts). I haven't taken the new GRE yet, but my scores on the previous version were, again, not dismal, but not stellar enough to make me stand out. (V: something between 630-650 [so low almost entirely because of the Antonyms, so I'm hopeful for at least a slightly higher V score now that they've been removed]; Q: 560; AW: 5 or 5.5, I've managed to forget.)

...am I fundamentally hopeless in terms of even getting my LoRs, etc., read by anybody out there at any program?

Your verbal score is nothing to be ashamed of, at all. Look at the FAQs for the programs you are applying for. Some schools will specifically state we want a 600 (for example), some state percentile they want (which will equate to some score), others will just say GRE scores are judged competitively. It wouldn't be a bad idea to contact the program and ask, and now would be a great time because they won't be flooded with phone calls like they will be starting around November. You may be able to gain some insight, or you might get a general answer that the person answering the phone is told to tell people inquiring. Emails could work too.

As far as GPA goes, there will not be a critical analysis of your transcript. I think every school lists their minimum requirement for GPA on the program information. Berkeley, for example, only requires a 3.0 GPA, but specifically lists on their website that the average GPA of entering classes is a 3.75. So, do they consider people with a 3.0? I don't know. If you don't have at least a 3.0, there is no point in even applying (this is just an example).

My opinion (take it for what it is), your GPA and GRE scores do not have to make you stand out, they just have to move you forward (do you meet what they are looking for their cut off or not - I would think a higher GRE or GPA has some impact, but can you move forward to be further reviewed?). The place you really need to sparkle is your SOP, writing sample, and LORs. That is what is going to tell the program that this person is a good investment who will finish the program. If you are able to get a more definitive answer about GRE scores from your program, that would help ease your mind that your application will be considered (as far as your actual ability, not how you performed on one standardized test). I would not bother applying to programs that list a GPA or GRE requirement that are higher than what you have because you do not meet the minimum requirements.

[ThePoorHangedFool]

Thanks, lolopixie, for those helpful responses. I suppose I'm primarily concerned about how my GRE scores affect my overall application because at this point I'm only able to use the former test as a reference point. I've definitely been keeping note of what programs say were their "average" verbal and AW scores; for the most part, my scores on last year's exam fall into the required window. I've taken, so far, just two practice tests for the revised GRE, and based on those two scores averaged, I definitely hope to do better this year on the new version (though, with a few of the topmost-ranked programs, at least, I'm still just barely missing the bottom cutoff score by 10-30 points...there's still time, I say!).

I'd rather not disclose my GPA and/or transcript details openly, though I can PM you if you feel you have more to offer in this direction. However, my GPA within the English department was higher than my cumulative GPA, and I suppose I can say I graduated magna....barely, though...to give you an idea of where my GPA falls. I'm worried that it will be so low at the minimum end of the cutoff range (not for a lot of schools, but for many of the typically most "prestigious" ones) that adcoms will just toss out my whole application and spend time nitpicking with applicants whose GPAs are ever the slightest bit more impressive.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm starting to freak out about nothing. I'm starting to freak out about every aspect of this, really, and publicly divulging anxiety about this particular issue reveals less insecurities than ranting about several other matters I could get into here...

[truckbasket]

My opinion (take it for what it is), your GPA and GRE scores do not have to make you stand out, they just have to move you forward (do you meet what they are looking for their cut off or not - I would think a higher GRE or GPA has some impact, but can you move forward to be further reviewed?). The place you really need to sparkle is your SOP, writing sample, and LORs.

I'd agree, but they also keep you in the game throughout the whole process too. Once you pass the initial chopping block, the committee will evaluate your entire package with those numbers in mind, and if your awesomeness is equal to that of another applicant whose scores beat yours, it's probably going to go to them. Also, be aware that it's the DGS who makes the final call at the end of the process and can reject an otherwise fantastic candidate based on cut-offs even though they were universally loved and enthusiastically recommended by the committee. There have been some horror stories on here about applicants who, around decision time, had been contacted by POIs and led to believe they were in, only to get rejected by the DGS at the final hour. So yes, the GRE / GPA will keep you from the initial rejects pile, but even if the rest of your stuff is awesome, a mediocre score might still get you axed midway through or at the last minute.

I'm worried that it will be so low at the minimum end of the cutoff range (not for a lot of schools, but for many of the typically most "prestigious" ones) that adcoms will just toss out my whole application and spend time nitpicking with applicants whose GPAs are ever the slightest bit more impressive.

But when all is said and done, it really is just a series of numbers. Obviously, submitting the highest scores possible is in your best interest, but don't let mediocre figures bum you out -- it's just not worth it. People do get into top-tier programs with average GRE / GPA scores. A great deal of this process is about luck and your ability to play the right notes for the right audience. Don't let something as lame as the GRE manifest itself into a form of resignation -- at the end of the day, it is what it is, and the results are pretty much out of your hands. If you're truly worried about your chances, just be sure to apply to a range of programs; but if there's one program (or one person in particular) who would be ideal -- even if their cut-offs are strict -- don't let that stop you from throwing everything you have at it.

I genuinely sympathize with all who are dealing with this -- it's an awful process.

[harpyemma]

I've narrowed down my list to 7 US schools, 2/3 UK schools and one Canadian--for now. Depending on finances/employment that may need to get dropped down by a couple on the North American front.

I took the GRE last year and got a good enough score (but not great: 670V 720Q 5.0AW) not to warrant taking it again, so that's a load off my mind.

I've approached two LoR-writers and have got thumbs up from them; just waiting on my MA thesis advisor for the third--but i don't want to ask her until i've handed the thesis in.

I've got a writing sample in mind but, again, i'm putting off thinking about it until after i've submitted my thesis (in a week or so). I'm editing it for potential publication anyway, so it's a nice two-birds-one-stone job. It's right at the 20pp limit right now so whilst i've got some things i'd like to add, it also requires a LOT of stremlining to keep it in check length-wise. Argh. Trying not to stress about it now, though...

I've yet to begin work on my SOPs, research proposals (for my UK applications) or fellowship applications (going for AAUW International Fellowship). At all.

I haven't begun to contact POIs yet, although I was in contact with David Eng at UPenn last year so i suppose there's that?

Will order transcripts (UG, study abroad and MA= three sets of fees, ugh) in November. Ditto sending GRE scores. Hopefully by then i'll have found a job...

First deadline is just 19 days after i get my MA results. Hoping my current school doesn't go slow on the transcript requests, what with slow-ass international mail to factor in, too. But then i guess there's some wiggle room for hard copies of things to arrive, esp. if it's out of my direct control.

[Timshel]

I would not bother applying to programs that list a GPA or GRE requirement that are higher than what you have because you do not meet the minimum requirements.

There have been several anecdotes on this board where people have gotten into schools where they said they required a certain GRE, and that person didn't have that high of a score, but they got in anyway.

[lolopixie]

There have been several anecdotes on this board where people have gotten into schools where they said they required a certain GRE, and that person didn't have that high of a score, but they got in anyway.

I believe that in certain instances, but that scenario is more of an exception to the rule. Kentucky, for example, states they want a 700 verbal (at least in old scoring terms), and I really haven't heard of too many people scoring that high. I'm sure people have gone into that program with lower scores. I, personally, would not apply to a school that states there is a minimum requirement and I don't meet it by a long shot. I'm not a gambling gal

[jamie_w]

Hi! I'm new here, and was excited to find this forum! I just wrapped up an MA in English lit. and am now applying to English PhD programs for fall of 2012. I'm taking both the GRE and the lit. subject test in November--working full time, though, has made it a bit difficult to stay on a consistent study schedule. I was wondering if anyone had any advice/tricks that worked well for them? I'm averaging about 1-2 hours/day, but I'd like to up that a bit as the tests approach. I was also curious if anyone else was presenting at the PAMLA conference in CA in November--would be great to connect with folks before the conference begins. Thanks, and best of luck to everyone!

[user_name]

so i've never been to a confrence, haven't been published, and have been out of school for a few years....definitely making me feel like what i'm applying with is inadequate.

[Timshel]

so i've never been to a confrence, haven't been published, and have been out of school for a few years....definitely making me feel like what i'm applying with is inadequate.

Are you applying with a BA or MA?