guvmentkid Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 My program has admitted people with law degrees before and it is not something that hurts someone (they were all from top 5 law schools so it probably helped them). I think that many people do value "real world" experience, but timing is working against you. This year there are many people applying to graduate school because they are suddenly unemployed or fear being unemployed soon. So schools will worry that your application to graduate school is driven by something other than a real desire to do polisci or that you even really know what polisci is. Also with law degrees the problem is that sometimes faculty worry that you just hate being a lawyer, and having paid your debt, you switch careers without really knowing what polisci or academia entails. If you can show schools convincingly in your SOP why you want to pursue a PhD, then the experience you have will probably help you. Good luck! What about a "lawyer" who has worked on nothing but elections, grassroots mobilization, voter outreach, lobbying, etc. since law school? Certainly adcoms would "appreciate" this type of experience, no? I'm so frustrated that this just has to be the year that the economy goes in the crapper -- the same year I finally cleared the way for myself to go back for a PhD -- I'm concerned that I'll be lumped in with everyone else just looking for something to do...
twright Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 What about a "lawyer" who has worked on nothing but elections, grassroots mobilization, voter outreach, lobbying, etc. since law school? Certainly adcoms would "appreciate" this type of experience, no? I'm so frustrated that this just has to be the year that the economy goes in the crapper -- the same year I finally cleared the way for myself to go back for a PhD -- I'm concerned that I'll be lumped in with everyone else just looking for something to do... It is time for me to vent ... we all know that these adcoms are comprised of people who have never done anything outside of a university environment. They deal with ideas and theories, but never actually gain any hands-on experience ("real world" is just too overused at this point). For whatever reason, I think they tend to look down on those of us who have actually worked for a living. It so happens that I have excellent academic credentials as well as two years of law practice, in a very sophisticated area of law no less. Yet this seemingly means nothing to these adcom members who are solely interested in applicants who have spent their entire lives as students and not a single day as a professional with actual responsibilities. Sermon over.
natofone Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 I'm not sure that real world experience matters much to adcoms. They're looking for clues that you can develop theoretical social science research and are serious about becoming a lifelong academic. I'm with you on having the bad luck of applying at a time when it looks like we are trying to hide from the economy. I'm having the most successful year that I've ever had in the private sector and will be sacrificing to pursue this. I've been planning on applying this year for three years now and picked a really awful year. I wish that I would have applied last year. I feel your pain.
IRHopeful Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 You may be right Twright, but it's hard to say for sure. I'm (trying) to go straight from undergrad to graduate school, and part of me thinks *I* will be at a disadvantage compared to people like you who have professional experience. From surveying department websites, I think some degree of work experience is the norm rather than the exception. The point is, we don't really know how the committees view these things, so we should probably just take a deep breath and hope for the best. In fact, I remember reading a post on PoliSci Job Rumors a few weeks ago where the Duke graduate director commented on the high quality of applications this year, many of which came from people with JDs.
twright Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 You may be right Twright, but it's hard to say for sure. I'm (trying) to go straight from undergrad to graduate school, and part of me thinks *I* will be at a disadvantage compared to people like you who have professional experience. From surveying department websites, I think some degree of work experience is the norm rather than the exception. The point is, we don't really know how the committees view these things, so we should probably just take a deep breath and hope for the best. In fact, I remember reading a post on PoliSci Job Rumors a few weeks ago where the Duke graduate director commented on the high quality of applications this year, many of which came from people with JDs. perhaps you are correct, we shall see...
rlayla Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 yale does weird things...that you haven't heard back from them obviously means you haven't been rejected yet. but they seem to do waves every year. so, you might be in. you might be waitlisted. or you might have been rejected, but they haven't gotten around to getting your info online/emailed to you yet. that's how they usually do it. annoying because it makes speculation basically impossible with them, unlike other places. Thanks for the optomistic thoughts, Hotep. Yes, I've spent much time speculating in order to guess what it means that we have not heard back yet. But people have been rejected, and accepted, and there seems to be no pattern to the mess. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
jackassjim Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 we all know that these adcoms are comprised of people who have never done anything outside of a university environment. They deal with ideas and theories, but never actually gain any hands-on experience I do not believe that this is accurate. A great number of my professors, at least, have had considerable experience in the "real world". Often at rather high levels. Maybe they have not practiced in a "very sophisticated area of law", but I'm pretty sure that acting as a policy slave for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or serving on a World Trade Organization arbitration panel counts as "real world experience". Adcomms understand the value of experience, as long as it is relevant to what you want to study, and that your other credentials are good.
twright Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 I do not believe that this is accurate. A great number of my professors, at least, have had considerable experience in the "real world", and often at rather high levels of policymaking apparatus. Maybe they have not practiced in a "very sophisticated area of law", but I'm pretty sure that acting as a policy slave for the Joint Chiefs of Staff, or serving on a World Trade Organization arbitration panel counts as "real world experience". Your school may the exception. During my undergrad years, few, if any, of the Political Science professors had any experience outside of academia...
twright Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Additionally, jackassjim, my experience is entirely relevant to my proposed area of study--Public Law/Judicial Politics. My stats were provided in a previous post and will not be repeated here...
adaptations Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 To those venting about a bias against real world experience, I would like to provide some counter points. First, I think such generalizations are quite hasty and generally exaggerated. Second, when you look at the average age of first year Ph.D. students in Poli. Sci. it is about 25-26. Based on the assumption that most people graduate undergrad around 22, the majority of people are entering doctoral programs have some work experience. In addition to general trends, I can provide my own experience, which included two years at a law firm before returning to graduate school. I certainly don't think work experience hurt my chances, and in fact quite the opposite. Regardless of your professional experience, the most important factors for ad coms (in my opinion) are your ability to succeed in academia, your commitment to academia, and of course your fit with the program. Those are my thoughts on this debate... Cheers,
jackassjim Posted February 7, 2009 Posted February 7, 2009 Additionally, jackassjim, my experience is entirely relevant to my proposed area of study--Public Law/Judicial Politics. My stats were provided in a previous post and will not be repeated here... I hope you did not take my comment to imply any kind of assessment of your chances of admission. I have not read the posts your refer to for your stats, but your confident tone alone suffices to convince me that you'll do more than well in this cycle. I wish you the best of luck, as I hope that a big chunk of my future cohort will have work experience. It just adds so much to the seminar experience...
guvmentkid Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 I think I can literally smell the stress we are all under -- I think all of us have individual reasons for applying and at the same time individual qualifications that we feel set us apart and deserving of a "slot" at a great school. I've read with a great deal of apprehension the great stats of many on here and wondered if I can "compete." I will say this is a rather messy system (grad apps), yet I'm not sure how in the devil it could be improved upon. I, for one, don't really envy anyone sitting on these committees trying to sort through the differences, both big and small, between us. I can legitimately see being rejected by all the schools to which I've applied as well as accepted at each one too. Since most of us are high achievers, our own lack of control within a system with very little quantifiable (no pun intended) side-boards is driving all of us at least a little crazy. (I know I'm doing a lot of pacing and I never paced in my entire life!) Simultaneously, we have another crowd (current ABD's and others) telling us how simple-minded we are for considering this path in life to begin with. So to everyone here -- this does in fact suck, you are probably more than qualified for at least some of the places you applied, let's just all try to keep from screaming at each other and get through this.
catchermiscount Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 The stress levels are high, and some of us are wondering why the hell we got into this crazy game. I assure you, grad school itself is far worse than the graduate admissions process, and then getting a job is harder than graduate school, and then getting tenure is harder than getting a job. Since getting to grad school, one of my favorite lines has popped out above all others. I present it below in its original context: "There was this kid I grew up with; he was younger than me. Sorta looked up to me, you know. We did our first work together, worked our way out of the street. Things were good, we made the most of it. During Prohibition, we ran molasses into Canada... made a fortune, your father, too. As much as anyone, I loved him and trusted him. Later on he had an idea to build a city out of a desert stop-over for GI's on the way to the West Coast. That kid's name was Moe Greene, and the city he invented was Las Vegas. This was a great man, a man of vision and guts. And there isn't even a plaque, or a signpost or a statue of him in that town! Someone put a bullet through his eye. No one knows who gave the order. When I heard it, I wasn't angry; I knew Moe, I knew he was head-strong, talking loud, saying stupid things. So when he turned up dead, I let it go. And I said to myself, this is the business we've chosen; I didn't ask who gave the order, because it had nothing to do with business!" THIS IS THE BUSINESS WE'VE CHOSEN - don't be deterred. Be just as pissed as Hyman Roth was when he went on his rant. We aren't going to get a plaque, that's for damned sure. The process is hard and random and full of unfairness. But: this is the business we've chosen.
guvmentkid Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 ok coach, you've convinced me -- you can have my "enforcer" position
natofone Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Come on man. It ain't so bad. Better than working 60 hours a week like I do now.
jackassjim Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 ok coach, you've convinced me -- you can have my "enforcer" position Dirty Harry, or Casino-style?
UndraftedFreeAgent Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Great post, coach. I'm very happy with my program, but I completely agree. Hope none of y'all have a recommender named Fredo.
AllFiredUp Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 On the cusp of a new week. Here in mid-February, schools are like turgid ulcers, ready to explode their pus (decisions) onto their victims.
catchermiscount Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 On the cusp of a new week. Here in mid-February, schools are like turgid ulcers, ready to explode their pus (decisions) onto their victims. I'll tell ya, if I wasn't in Uber Frisky Mode already today, I'm there now. Bow chicka wow wow.
spark25 Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Can someone please make a list of all the schools that are expected to make the decisions next week?
rlayla Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 On the cusp of a new week. Here in mid-February, schools are like turgid ulcers, ready to explode their pus (decisions) onto their victims. lovely.
plisar Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 This week, we are looking at: UNC Berkeley Stanford Duke Northwestern Indiana UVA Colorado WashU Possibly: UCLA UCSD Michigan (highly unlikely) Feel free to add to the list
spark25 Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Hey Plisar, thanks for this list. However, it seems like Colorado Boulder has already contacted the admitted people. EDIT: Also, didn't UC Irvine contact people sometime during the second week of last year?
expatbayern Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 This looks like pretty much what I'd be expecting. I was spoiled by the Rochester news coming two weeks earlier than it had in previous years--I keep telling myself "well, if they did, other places could be ahead of schedule as well..."
rlayla Posted February 8, 2009 Posted February 8, 2009 Hopefully Yale will get back to the rest of us this week...
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