MDiv vs. MA

[Guest]

Hello,

I am going to be applying to masters programs for the 2012-2013 school year. I am aiming to become a professor of religion, wanting to study systematic theology and either ethics, philosophy of religion, or Old Testament.

There is a minor complication: in my church tradition (Seventh-day Adventist, evangelical) professors essentially MUST have pastoral experience in order to teach in our schools, at least. Though I'm open to teaching anywhere, I do feel safe not doing anything that would block me from having access to SDA schools. For that reason, I am extremely likely to do at least a couple years as a pastor.

This leads me to my question: should I go for an MDiv or an MA?

I like the fact that you study every field of theology in the MDiv, but studying three years for pastoral ministry, which I'd do for 4 years max, is perhaps a waste of time? I also don't like how you don't really get the full academic rigor of an MA through an MDiv, even if you concentrate on Systematic Theology and write a thesis. I do realize that MDiv students can easily get into a PhD program nonetheless, but I question the intelligence of doing three years when I could just do one year.

Anyways, the MA sounds more appealing for the reasons mentioned above, yet it is considerably harder to get the job as a pastor with an academic MA. Not that it's impossible, but you make it more unlikely, ESPECIALLY if you go to a non-Adventist school for your masters degree. In fact, only 1 in 9 of Adventist professors got their degree at a non-SDA school. But that's a whole other dilemma.

Any thoughts on what I should do?

As for grad schools I'm aiming for on the MA/MDiv/PhD level, I've decided to be rebellious and I'm considering the following schools, reminding you that I am aiming for systematic theology w/ philosophy of religion, ethics, or Old Testament as a minor:

- Fuller

- Harvard

- SDA Theological Seminary

- U Chicago Divinity

- Vanderbilt

- Yale

- Claremont

- Duke

- Emory

- Princeton Theological Seminary

- University of Virginia

- Union Theological Seminary

- Notre Dame

- Boston College

- Princeton University Dept. of Religion

- Wheaton (Unaccredited)

Note: I am completely open to other suggestions or specific suggestions for colleges already in the list!

Stats

Age: 21

Marital Status: Married

Race: Caucasian

Degree: BA Theology: Pastoral Ministry - Andrews University, Berrien Springs, MI (This degree concentrated mostly on theology but had a few preaching classes)

GPA: 3.65

GRE: Not taken yet

Areas of Interest: Systematic Theology, Ethics, Old Testament, Philosophy of Religion

Specific Areas of Interest: The doctrines of authority, inspiration, and revelation; Religion and Culture

[Sparky]

Please forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post, but I gather that you're really saying the following:

(1) Professionally, you know you need an MDiv.

(2) Personally, you don't wanna.

Allow me, proud holder of an MA in historical theology and thus someone with no personal stake in promoting the idea of an MDiv, to sell you on the idea.

I heartily dispute the notion that an MDiv is necessarily academically less rigorous. At the school where I did my MA, the PhD students who were the most knowledgeable (in terms of texts read and theologians/religious movements studied) had MDivs from Duke and Vanderbilt. They weren't necessarily the smartest or the best writers (well, the dude from Vandy is one of the smartest guys I know, period...come to think of it, he is SDA ), but they were the most academically experienced. And we're talking about HT, so I observed this from patristics all the way through postmodern theo/contemporary phil of rel. I rather suspect it has more to do with the school and the specific program than with the letters that follow M in the degree. My understanding is that at Harvard, too, the MDiv is basically "MTS-plus." On the other hand, it *is* school dependent--I'm pretty sure that Notre Dame considers their MTS to be the more academic theology master's.

If you're unsure about the strength of a specific program, one thing to do might be to contact the school and find out what students do with the various degrees. Obviously you should expect that many MDiv students are simply uninterested in doctoral work, but if the program is strong there will be at least some students who caught the academic bug and were/were seen as well prepared enough for a PhD by top departments.

Your second main area of concern seems to be time. And I totally get that, especially seeing as you already have a degree in theology with some pastoral training! It's rather frustrating to see all the people on the English (especially) and history boards (as well as all the soc sci and physical sc) applying for PhD programs directly out of undergrad when religion throws this nice stumbling block of the de facto required master's degree in there. Your enthusiasm to get to that point, to get through the work, to get the prize degree is awesome and will be important in motivating you during grad work. Don't lose it. That said, graduate school, especially if you're looking at an eventual PhD, is an ultramarathon, not a sprint--or even a 5K. No, you don't want to be the perpetual student, always ABD, never a PhD--but you also need to be ready for when the "this is a four year program" turns out to be 6-7 years. (As a side note, I'm pretty sure that MA/MTS programs in the U.S. are generally 2 years full-time, not one. So it's only a one-year difference with the MDiv that you're talking about.)

The other consideration, which was absent from your post, is languages. Language training is an integral part of any theology graduate education (and successful PhD application. ) I don't know what your languages are like right now...probably you'd be okay applying for the M* without background, but most master's programs will require you to pick up at least one (more likely two? two is standard for M* in HT, but I don't know about systematics) for the degree. To be competitive for PhD programs, it's very useful to have a primary research language as well as secondary scholarship ones. (Can you even minor in OT without Hebrew? Biblical people, help me out on this one. I got nothing.)

You seem to be dreading the idea of a couple years as a pastor, less for the work itself (I don't think anyone would even make inroads in that directions unless s/he really did feel some vocational pull; it's a crazy hard calling) than for the time off academics. One thing you might consider is to be like the pastor from my church back home. Although he's not planning on doctoral work, his "hobby" is learning languages, usually by taking night classes at a local seminary. (It makes his sermons awesome.) That might be one way you could feel like your time as a pastor is contributing to future education in more tangible ways than just life experience.

That said: one of the smartest, quickest, most all-around awesome guys in the PhD program at my MA school had been an [evangelical denom] pastor for more than a decade before starting the PhD. He knew his stuff.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Sparky

[sacklunch]

As Sparky said, the MTS/MA/M* is usually a two year degree, not one. Most of the schools you listed will require you to take pastoral classes as part of the MDiv (HDS might be the exception). If you have no interest in doing so, which it sounds like you don't, then apply for the MTS/MA route instead. And if you later decide you need more coursework to prepare you for a PhD there are other opportunities for 1-2 year theology graduate work beyond the MTS (ThM at some Canadian schools, cert. programs, ect.).

good luck.

[Guest]

Awesome answers so far!

I have taken courses bringing me up to the intermediate level in both Biblical Greek and Biblical Hebrew. I am also learning modern Spanish, but that's not much help academically.

As for Sparky's guesses of the undertones of what I'm saying, he isn't too far off except I would add that I'm kinda okay with an MDiv, and I completely agree that it is just as academically rigorous (just lacking in the area of reputation as an academic degree is all), I just question the long-term logic of it. I also am passionate about ministry and would love to do any form of it, I just see my calling as aiming for the professor direction rather than being a lifelong pastor. I believe both vocations are of equal value. If I do find myself in a pastoral role long-term, rest assured I will certainly be as studious as I can be!

[sacklunch]

There might be two other reasons why an MDiv would be beneficial (note that I have no interest in ministry):

1. It will give you more time to sort out your languages, if need be. You sound to be in pretty good shape for many PhD program's language requirement. You will likely have to add some reading comp. in German and/or French. I have several friends who did the MDiv because they didn't have enough language skill before coming in. So basically it gave them three years to reach up to the intermediate/advanced level in Greek, Hebrew, Latin (and some Aramaic, Syriac, Coptic, ect).

2. The economy sucks right now. I think I read that something like 1 in 5 professors actually get tenured. If it is hard as you say in the SDA community to get into a pastoral role, then it might not be a bad idea to get the "legit" degree, just to cover your bases.

Quite honestly I don't know if even two years is enough to prepare someone for a doctoral program. I even did theology in UG and I feel a bit overwhelmed by what some of these doctoral students know. Though it does seem more and more doctoral students come in with multiple masters.

good luck!

[sacklunch]

To be considered at most PhD programs in Bible, the applicant should have at least three years of language cumulatively. Usually it breaks down to two years in the applicant primary testament (i.e., Greek for NT and Hebrew for HB/OT) and one year in the other. Most folks I know that had successful applications (read as getting into funded PhD programs) surpassed the minimum requirement that I'm mentioning.

So it seems. I have much more than the minimum and I fear it might not be enough. Many of the bible doctoral students at my school have intermediate/advanced in at least Greek, Hebrew, and Latin, and of course the usual German or French reading comp. I sat down with one of the bible doctoral directors and asked what the first thing they looked at. Not surprisingly it was language ability.

Then again, I have two friends that got into good PhD programs last season who didn't have a ton of languages. One, doing ethics (sexual) had relatively none (gasp!) and the other (Liturgy) I think had only a bit of (church) Latin and a year of Greek.