Should I apply for more schools?

[catalyst]

Hi, I am new here but I have been reading the webboard for some time. I would appreciate it if you could give me some suggestion on my application.

I am applying for PhD in English for 2009 and I have already applied to 10 (top 33) US universities. While waiting for the schools' decision, I am wondering whether I should apply for more schools because the schools I have applied for are very competitive plus I am non-native planning to do English Lit (I have only studied abroad for 1 year in the UK and my family is non-native). I fear that they might all reject me. However, one Director of Graduate Studies from my top-choice school whom I have talked to via email several times told me that the committee is "very enthusiastic" about my application and my GRE scores are "very acceptable" in their point of view. She also said that she would inform me about the decision herself via email to avoid the delay of snail mail service plus saying that she would be willing to answer my questions about the program, the town of the university and anything that is not available at the website. Another Director of my top-choice school told me that, as a non-native, my GRE is "very competitive." I think this is a good sign for me but I know that I cannot be certain at all about this and I don't want to count the chicken before they are hatched. Some time I just can't help feeling that they might accept me but I am not sure about my chance. Should I apply for more schools? Here's my profile.

1. Non-native from Thailand

2. BA in English from a university Thailand GPA 3.86

3. MA in English Literature from Warwick, UK( ranked around 7-9) GPA equivalent of 3.60

4. TOEFL 113/120

5. GRE verbal 670 (95%) Math 650 (60%) AWA (5.0) 77%

6. Already received full 6 year scholarship from the Thai Government (no need to apply for any funding)

7. Good letters of recommendation

8. not sure about writing sample (I sent one which I got distinction from the UK but I am not sure whether it is good enough for US application)

9. one publication in Thai university journal

Some of my friends said that if I don't have to apply for any funding, I have a good chance of being accepted but I am not uncertain about whether to apply for few more choices. Comments will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.

[limeinthecoconut]

Hmm, I am guessing that it should be easier to get into these schools, given that these schools don't have to fund you? Did you inform these schools that you don't need funding? That's just my guess. Good luck!

[catalyst]

Thank you very much for your reply, Seahistory. I did make it very clear to the schools I applied for that the scholarship covers everything and does not entail any financial obligations on the part of the overseas institution.

[polumetis23]

I agree that you have an advantage if schools know that they don't have to fund you. That being said, your grades, academic pedigree, and especially GRE verbal are not good enough to get into places like Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, etc. The 95th verbal percentile is good, but you really would need a perfect percentile score. Of course being a non-native from Thailand gives you a distinct "minority" advantage as well. Good luck.

[limeinthecoconut]

Sawadeekha again, catalyst.

Just a couple of questions-- does your government scholarship offer lapse, should you not get in this application cycle? What are the conditions of this scholarship?

If the scholarship will lapse, should you not get in this application cycle, I would suggest that you do apply to more schools, just so that you can keep this scholarship. You never know if you will get it again next year.

However, if the scholarship will be there regardless, I think waiting for one more cycle, should you not get in this time round is not too bad. There is little point going to a program that you don't really want to be in. Six years of misery is long enough.

[linden]

Catalyst:

Hello. I am not a school administrator, but I have to say that if I had to select between you and a native English speaker (provided that your SOP and other materials show clearly why you are pursuing this degree and that all other things are equal) I would go with you. You might not be in the 99th percentile in verbal and you might not have a 4.0 GPA. Nevertheless your stats leave no doubt that you are a well-qualified student--a 95th percentile is nothing to scoff at--and, more importantly, you bring in a different perspective. I would imagine you would be an interesting choice for many departments, especially in a field like English, which, by default, will attract a small number of well-qualified, non-native English-speaking foreign students. I am not saying you have this in the bag. After all, who knows what really happens at the time of making admissions decisions? But, I think you have reason to feel confident, especially given the conversations you recount here. Finally, as seahistory says, it's always a good idea to apply to one or two safety schools, even if you are an exceptional candidate.

Good luck!

Linden

[catalyst]

Hi Seahistory, Polumetis 23,Linden

Thank you very much for all your replies. I didn't expect that people would reply to me so quickly. I really appreciate this. Well, finally I think I will apply for a couple of safety schools just to make sure. I have never applied to the US schools before, nor have I been to the country myself. It's a brand new experience for me.

Seahistory, you know Thai greetings...have you been to Thailand before? About the condition of my scholarship, it depends... but the sooner I go, the better.

Polumetis 23, I am aware that my verbal is ok but nothing spectacular compared to the native speaker. Most applicants for competitive Eng Lit programs often get 99%. I didn't apply to the top 5, mainly it's the top 20 and 30. Still, those programs are very competitive and people might hesitate to pick a foreigner for English program. I know that places like Harvard or Yales are far-fetched for me. I just hope that my being one of the minorities would give me an edge.

Linden, I know that it is better to be on the safe side. Nothing hurts to apply for more schools but after doing 10 applications in a row, some time I just feel like not doing it anymore. Well, we will never know about the result and it would be a real regret to learn that I might have gotten in if I apply for safety choice. So will give it another try...

Thank you once again for all your comments.

[Dreams]

I think I will chime in with the others and say you already have a very good chance of getting into one of your picks already. The things you list make you a very strong candidate. Even though you already have strong scores, your current MA will also attest that you can handle the work. And that fact that you have outside funding boosts your attractiveness more.

I would not recommend that you apply to any more schools.

[limeinthecoconut]

Seahistory, you know Thai greetings...have you been to Thailand before? About the condition of my scholarship, it depends... but the sooner I go, the better.

I think I have been to Thailand about five times. I live in a Southeast Asian country as well. If your scholarship requires you to return to Thailand to teach, I think applying to safety schools just to get in this round will be okay. I understand from my classmates that the pedigree of your degree doesn't really matter in Thai universities, only the quality of your publications. However, if you are thinking of getting a job in the US after you graduate, do take into account the placement record of the safety schools you are applying to.

[rising_star]

I agree that you have an advantage if schools know that they don't have to fund you. They'd never admit it, but in their cynical calculus your GRE verbal scores and relatively high GPAs make such a denial at least plausible. That being said, your grades, academic pedigree, and especially GRE verbal are not good enough to get into places like Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, etc. The 95th verbal percentile is good, but you really would need a perfect percentile score. Of course being a non-native from Thailand gives you a distinct "minority" advantage as well, so understand that you're probably being judged by a separate set of criteria. Good luck.

I would say that not being a native speaker of English and getting the 95th percentile is pretty damn good. As in, will definitely not keep the OP out of consideration. But, for the record, minority students are rarely judged by a separate set of criteria. While they may be judged with research about the disparities in standardized testing or in school quality in mind, I would be completely shocked if there's a school that uses "a separate set of criteria". I'd be careful about coming across as racist, polumetis23, if I were you.

[polumetis23]

Due respect, risingstar, but it's not racism on my part, it's the way it is. Every incoming class is socially engineered to some extent. I don't think you grasp how competitive English admissions are or how cynical certain admit decisions are. Don't take my word for it; read the work of someone like Walter Benn Michaels, who's at the pinnacle of the profession and has been an eloquent critic in recent years of the humanities' obsession with diversity and multiculturalism. Yes, the 95th percentile is impressive and she's sure to get into some top 25 programs--just not the top ones. Having funding in hand will make it easier, as will not being white perhaps (though she'd be better off being black or Hispanic and from a good U.S. undergraduate institution). At the end of the day, English is an increasingly cutthroat discipline and pretty darn good don't cut it at the upper echelons.

[rising_star]

You and I have vastly different ideas of "the way it is", polumetis. Can you link me to articles (research not just one person's opinion) on this? I'd really appreciate it.

Due respect, risingstar, but it's not racism on my part, it's the way it is. Every incoming class is socially engineered to some extent. I don't think you grasp how competitive English admissions are or how cynical certain admit decisions are. Don't take my word for it; read the work of someone like Walter Benn Michaels, who's at the pinnacle of the profession and has been an eloquent critic in recent years of the humanities' obsession with diversity and multiculturalism.

EVERYTHING is socially engineered. It's part of the social construction of society. You'll get no arguments from me on that. I realize that some people are cynical and that English admissions are highly competitive. (For the record, please don't tell me what I do and do not grasp. You have no idea what I do and do not know.) From reading the introduction of Michael's book, it seems that he is railing against the conflation of race with diversity. Fine. Diversity should be considered across multiple axes including, but not limited to, sexual identity, economic background, parent's marital status, only child vs family with multiple children, or what have you. But how do you suppose admissions committees consider all those factors? You'd need more research to show that only children are at a disadvantage or that kids raised by a stepmom and dad are more likely to be successful. You generate the studies and maybe they will be considered when programs are trying to diversify.

What is clear, not just in the humanities but throughout academia, is that African-Americans, Latinos, Native Americans, etc. are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to graduate school and college admissions. Lots of factors play into this: school quality, parental involvement in education, being pushed by teachers, the structure of standardized tests, not necessarily being able to afford to pay for GRE/SAT/LSAT prep courses, etc. Are you suggesting that these things don't matter? Would English programs be better served by just admitting students with the highest combo of GRE scores and GPA? Taking that position is basically saying that though the standardized tests have a racial bias and the educational system puts minorities at a disadvantage, no one should consider that. If you don't want diversity in your program, fine. But don't force that on everyone else. Sometimes brilliant scholars are those that don't have a 1500 on the GRE or a 4.0 GPA from an Ivy League school. Passion matters far more than a GRE score does when it comes to long-term success.

[purplepepper]

I really wish people would stop claiming that they "know" without perfect pedigrees and scores one cannot be accepted into top programs such as harvard, yale and whatnot. especially in the humanities and i assume social science too, where other factors are so much more important than scores such as essays and letters.

princeton even publishes their average gre scores for all those admitted, and sorry, those scores are not 99%--not even for the humanities (granted they are averages so one department may like to see higher scores than others)

http://www.princeton.edu/pr/facts/profile/06/13.htm

But really, its so discouraging to read over and over again that people don't have any chance whatso ever because they were not able to go to a prestegious undergrad, or for those who didnt even know they wanted to go to grad school until, like me, after they graduated and likewise spent so much time (years) and energy seeking out experience, further schooling and preparation in order to have a chance at a top program.

there are lots of non-traditional students, who, like was said before, can bring different perspectives to a program. isnt that what the sop and those stupid diversity statements were for anyway? to show that people arent square and those without 4.0s and 99%s have the experience, talent, and can bring unique perspectives to a program?

am i really the only one who believes this?

sorry for the rant.

[limeinthecoconut]

You'll be fine mims. I have a friend who got into an Ivy with 50% in both verbal and math. And another friend also in an Ivy told me that basically, one of her successful fellow applicants didn't even send in his/her GREs.

[rising_star]

there are lots of non-traditional students, who, like was said before, can bring different perspectives to a program. isnt that what the sop and those stupid diversity statements were for anyway? to show that people arent square and those without 4.0s and 99%s have the experience, talent, and can bring unique perspectives to a program?

am i really the only one who believes this?

sorry for the rant.

No, mims, you're not the only one that believes this. I got into top programs, not in English, without having top percentage GRE scores or a 4.0 GPA.

[linden]

Mims3382: I think it is possible to get into top-ranked programs without having a 4.0, perfect GRE scores, or coming from a prestigious undergrad institution. When my spirits sag, I often look at the student profile for a respected program to which I am applying at Georgetown.

https://gushare.georgetown.edu/PublicPo ... rofile.pdf.

I am struck by the wide variety of institutions represented in the incoming class. Also, the average scores (GPA and GRE) are certainly not near-perfect.

Catalyst, when you do get in, please come back and share the good news!

[Dreams]

am i really the only one who believes this?

No you definitely are not the only one who believes this. It bothers me too when people will not consider applying to top programs because they went to an unknown school and did not get stellar scores and such. There are many other ways to identify a strong candidate than the name of their undergrad or a 99% GRE score.