Second tier schools for IR?

[cowboy]

We all know about the amazing first tier schools: Fletcher, Harvard, Columbia, Johns Hopkins, and others. But what are some good second tier schools? I ask because I want to have a backup in case I don't get into a top tier, but it seems to me that either a school is top tier or it has no brand recognition. Anyone have anymore knowledge on this topic?

[flyers29]

Well Gtown/GWU are pretty competitive too. I'd put American, Denver, Pitt, and Syracuse below that.

[NObama]

I'd add UCSD to it too, however they do have more of a regional focus then other programs. Add Yale to the top tier of programs too. Stanford perhaps in the second tier.

[WhateverHappens]

i know people that would take Stanford over Fletcher,SIPA or SAIS...

[NObama]

I know people too but I think Fletcher, SAIS and SIPA are more established, plus with the added opportunity for first year funding (SIPA excluded!!). The reason I had it 2nd tier for me (I'm applying) as it appears more routed towards academia. I'm hoping, if I get in, to go in a different direction. Plus when your think IR, Stanford IPS doesnt immediately come to mind.

[WhateverHappens]

going back to the topic I think that GW is the perfect example of second tier school. Everyone knows that Eliott is a good school with a good brand recognition, but it is not comparable with SIPA,SAIS,KSG,WWS etc etc

[Mal83]

How does Elliott not compare to SIPA or SAIS? do SIPA and WWS even have a DC campus? The job and internship opportunities that come with being an Elliott graduate student in the heart of the IR world, for me, makes those other schools less appealing than their reputations might suggest. When it comes to professional programs I think other factors besides academics come into play. Not that you'd have trouble finding a job after graduating from either of these fine schools, but Elliott is top notch when it comes to a combination of academics, location, and networking. Just my 2 cents.

[greendiplomat]

How does Elliott not compare to SIPA or SAIS? do SIPA and WWS even have a DC campus? The job and internship opportunities that come with being an Elliott graduate student in the heart of the IR world, for me, makes those other schools less appealing than their reputations might suggest. When it comes to professional programs I think other factors besides academics come into play. Not that you'd have trouble finding a job after graduating from either of these fine schools, but Elliott is top notch when it comes to a combination of academics, location, and networking. Just my 2 cents.

I think "second-tier" has negative connotations that the original poster isn't intending. From what his post and others following suggest, this thread is about high-quality programs that aren't as difficult to gain admissions to.

Basing our discussion on that definition of high-quality and (relatively) lower-selectivity programs, I think GW (Elliott), American, Denver (Korbel), and UCSD fall into that category. I would probably add UChicago and Syracuse to that list as well.

To focus this conversation on your seeking advice, cowboy, what area of IR are you interested in? A great way to ultimately choose among the safeties that we provide would be to find a school that's not as selective but happens to be strong in that particular area (e.g. UCSD for the IR of the Asia/Pacific region).

[sengpatt]

Does anyone have an idea if this system could be applied to scholarships as well? Some schools' websites are fairly explicit about funding policies, but many others are not. While I know loans are pretty much a given in my case, I don't think I could swing the sticker price of a lot of these programs without some additional help. I realize I'm at a disadvantage coming straight out of undergrad, but I feel like, with my GPA/GRE score/SoP/recommendations/etc., I'm otherwise fairly qualified. It would be nice to have a rough idea of how much financial aid to expect before putting the time, effort, and money into preparing an application.

Edited December 27, 2011 by sengpatt

[globalsun]

I think the second tier label is thrown around way too easily. Is it determined by name brand of the program, the name brand of the school or its selectivity in admissions?

Fletcher, SAIS and SIPA are huge schools with many hundred of students and significant marketing budgets for recruitment. Stanford IPS like Yale IR are both small boutique programs that take in no more than 30 students a year. This means they are more selective with low acceptance rates in the 20% or below range. Both programs also have access to courses at top ranked business, law, and even science/engineering programs, meaning the student can potentially get a far richer educational experience, not to mention more powerful alumni networks. And despite what you might have heard, the funding opportunities are pretty good since there more endowment money per student dedicate to perks like international travel in their first year.

On a more meta note, in today's interdisciplinary world, the usefulness of siloed specialty schools which only offer MBAs is waning and the same can be said for other professional degrees like IR.

Finally, Stanford IPS has not been academically oriented since it changed its curriculum in 2007. Almost no one without at least some post undergraduate work experience is accepted. The same can be said of the Yale program especially with its recent changes.

I know people too but I think Fletcher, SAIS and SIPA are more established, plus with the added opportunity for first year funding (SIPA excluded!!). The reason I had it 2nd tier for me (I'm applying) as it appears more routed towards academia. I'm hoping, if I get in, to go in a different direction. Plus when your think IR, Stanford IPS doesnt immediately come to mind.

[yo_yo86]

I agree with greendiplomat that second-tier is probably meant to designate a good program that is slightly easier to get into. I think the list provided is fairly accurate, though I would say Elliott is close on the heals of the top-tier programs and SIPA is seriously slipping in the opposite direction (I was an undergrad at Columbia and knew a lot of very unsatisfied, and upon graduation, very unemployed, SIPA students). I might also add some more regional schools to the list, such as Pitt and UMinn and/or look into others as they will likely be slightly cheaper and easier to get into, when considering second-tier schools.

Globalsun also raises some valid points, particularly with regards to the smaller boutique IR programs at Yale and Stanford. However, I doubt cowboy was looking for such programs when thinking of safety schools to apply to. In this context I think one can assume second-tier is more program specific (and yes, the term "second-tier" is likely a bit overused). For example, Maxwell at Syracuse is a much stronger program than Syracuse's law school and, as such, should be considered separate from other programs at the university.

Edited December 30, 2011 by yo_yo86

[yo_yo86]

Not sure if anybody is still reading this thread, but the new TRIP survery/rankings came out. If you look at the full survey results (found here: http://irtheoryandpr...RESPONDENTS.pdf - go to Q54), you'll notice that SIPA is just ahead of Elliott (40% to 38%) and Elliott clusters much closer to WWS, Fletcher, and SIPA than it does to American (ranked #8). Just some addition food for thought...

Edited January 4, 2012 by yo_yo86