Worrying GRE score (Assessment needed)

[jimmy_01]

So I took the GRE in November and got shockingly (bad) scores. (Verbal: 140; Quantitative: 156; AW: 3.5...which translates to...Verbal:320, Quantitative: 720). Now, before you start assessing, I would just like to point out that I am a French native speaker (but graduated from an American university), and am an Electrical Engineering major. According to ETS's statistical distributions, my score (with the exeption of my verbal score) seems to fall within the average range for Electrical Engineers (http://www.ets.org/s...uide_table4.pdf).

These scores are very shocking to me because I was a stellar student during my undergraduate studies. I graduated with two degrees (one in Electrical Engineering and one in Physics) with an overall GPA of 3.99, have a publication, and won numerous honors and awards for my academic performance. I was an honor student and got full tuition coverage from my university. I also did an internship for a reputable multinational company for 8 months during my undergrad studies, and am currently pursuing my Masters in Electrical Engineering (currently with a 4.0 GPA). I simply don't understand why I got such bad scores in the GRE.

I already sent these scores to my desired univesities since the deadlines for most of these schools were approaching. Some of the schools that I applied to (For Ph.D) are in the top 10 for Electrical Engineering. Now, I know that the GRE is only one part of the application that is considered, and that there are many other factors involved in the admissions process; however, I am still very worried about the socres I have gotten (particularly in Verbal). Will I stand a chance for schools such as Yale, Stanford, etc..?

Edited January 2, 2012 by djack

[non humilis mulier]

Do you have time to retake? It sounds like these scores aren't a good reflection of your academic ability. Did you use study books? My husband boosted his score 200+ points after taking a Princeton review course. I studied from books and did well. I hate to say this, but those scores probably wouldn't pass the first cut at Ivies. : ( Some schools take your highest scores from multiple tests, so I'd definitely recommend retaking if possible Good luck!

[Helpplease123]

I think that a well written SoP could make up for it, especially as you're not a native English speaker...did you take the TOEFL exam for entry into your American undergrad? Your post is far better written than many native English speakers can manage, so I imagine you have no language issues in your personal statement or any other written portion of the application and hopefully you'll be fine.

[jimmy_01]

To non humilis mulier:

You're right, my GRE scores are not representative of my academic performance. Even my professors were shocked to hear about them! Unfortunately, I do not have time to retake the test, as the deadlines for the schools that I have applied to have passed. I used the Barrons book to prep up for the test, but I did not find it very helpful. The practice tests in the Barrons book seemed to be much easier than the actual test. If I don't get into the schools I applied to, then I'll look into other resouces for the retake. Thank you for your advice!

To Helpplease123:

For my undergrad, I did take the TOEFL, but the score is no longer valid due to the amount of time that has past since the day I had taken the exam. For grad school, the TOEFL is not required since I graduated from an American university. Yale, for example, states that a TOEFL can be waived if a non-native english speaker graduated from a US university. But like you said, hopefully the content in my SOP will supersede my verbal GRE score. I just don't want the admissions commitees of these universities to make assumptions about my academic performace based soely on my GRE scores...In my opinion, they are not good indicators about one's intellectual capabilities...

Edited January 2, 2012 by jimmy_01

[Rachel B]

For Yale and Stanford, I would highly suggest taking the test again. These schools are going to yield many outstanding applicants. Even if you have a great SoP and recommendations, you don't want to risk having someone selected over you just because you didn't do so hot at taking a very silly standardized test. Also, in some fields good GRE scores can help you greatly when it comes to receiving financial aid and often times GRE and GPA are the starting points at determining financial aid.

[jimmy_01]

Thanks for your input Rachel B. It's a very wierd test; I know people who have very low academic aptitudes and get outstanding GRE scores. while some people who have amazing GPA's and great academic credentials somehow get low GRE scores. I guess it's a matter of practicing as many questions as humanly possible until you master the test. But, if that's the case, then I don't know why the GRE is even considered as a indicative tool for determining one's academic potential. The objective of the GRE seems to be irrelevent to the potential one may have in accomplishing many great things in any university.

[process chemist]

You should arrange to take the TOFEL, that would really let the grad schools know your situation. You are a non-native english speaker, and you only went to college here, you should have taken the TOFEL. If the deadline permits, I would take the TOFEL ASAP! I don't thinks that grad schools will be too sensative to your situation, as there are many students from China, the Middle East, etc. who were also not native english speakers, but knew they had to take the TOFEL to show their english skills.

[jimmy_01]

To process chemist:

As I have already stated, the deadlines for the schools that I applied to have passed, and I have already sent my applications along with the required matierals. Thus it is too late to take the TOFEL's at this time. For Engineering, the scores of interest are usually the quantitative part, which I didn't do too bad on. SOP will reveal my verbal abilities. Hopefully all will go well.

[Helpplease123]

I guess it's a matter of practicing as many questions as humanly possible until you master the test. But, if that's the case, then I don't know why the GRE is even considered as a indicative tool for determining one's academic potential. The objective of the GRE seems to be irrelevent to the potential one may have in accomplishing many great things in any university.

I'm not sure thats strictly true and there's not really any need to devalue other peoples scores. I am sure some very intelligent people have done badly and vice versa but ultimately the majority of people are doing well on their own merit/intelligence, not purely through rote practice of questions.

Also, no need to get shirty with process chemist, i'm sure they assumed that you wouldn't be posting a long message as above if you weren't looking for advice. Since you've already submitted and can do nothing to change it, seems the best thing to do is just wait and see.

[jimmy_01]

I'm not sure thats strictly true and there's not really any need to devalue other peoples scores. I am sure some very intelligent people have done badly and vice versa but ultimately the majority of people are doing well on their own merit/intelligence, not purely through rote practice of questions.

Also, no need to get shirty with process chemist, i'm sure they assumed that you wouldn't be posting a long message as above if you weren't looking for advice. Since you've already submitted and can do nothing to change it, seems the best thing to do is just wait and see.

I was by no means devaluing the scores of other people. I was simply stating a fact about my personal experiences with people who have taken the GRE. That was all....

Also, I wasn't getting "shirty" with anyone...I don't see how my above post was at all offensive. Nonetheless, if I somehow did come across as pushy, well then I apologize.

Edited January 4, 2012 by jimmy_01

[ANDS!]

No reason to retake anything. What's done is done. Your LOR and academic performance will handle your mental capability; hopefully you addressed this situation in you Statement of Purpose, since it is absolutely where you are meant to explain any inconsistencies that grad committees might see. If you are overly concerned, simply apply to a few more safety schools. I know people want that Marquee Name on their PhD's, but being "forced" to attend a Top 50 school (instead of a Top 10) is hardly an academic/professional death sentence.

[process chemist]

Someone with an undergrad degree on from a US university is expected to score at least a 500 on each section of the GRE or at least 50% in each section; especially, for Yale. I have a friend a Haitian immigrant friend who got his PhD in Chemistry at CUNY Graduate Center in NY. The only reason he got in is because he had an 800Q, 390V, and a score >90% on the Chemistry GRE. You will need a couple of pubs, or some very exciting letters to go with your profile, because as it stands, your GRE composit is about a 1050, which will not get you past the cutoffs at any school. Your application will literally have to be "rescued" by a faculty member. This does happen (not often), but you usually have to know somebody on that year's admissions board who is willing to put his/her reputation on the line for you.

I would suggest that you submit a copy of your CV, and if possible part your thesis, to profs in the programs you are applying to, and explain your research interest and your interest in their research, and hope for the best. But as I said before, if these departments let you "slide" with that verbal score, that is unfair to foreign students who have the same difficulties as you, but have prepared an application package that will leave no room for conjecture on their ability to write and read standard English. You obviously have a M.S. and are very intelligent. But everybody applying to Yale and Stanford is intelligent, have high GRE scores, patents, some have MS with the same GPA as you do, and most if not all have pubs.

Do you have your GRE scores from the time you applied to your MS program, if so they will see both scores. If your previous scores are better than the most current ones, I wouldn't worry too much. Your only hope is just to e-mail profs (ASAP-like yesterday) and explain your situation.

[jimmy_01]

Thanks for your input and advice process chemist. I think that emphasis on the GRE varies by department. Some departments might consider them more important than others. For example, here is a quote directly from Princeton University's College of Engineering website (http://www.princeton.edu/engineering/graduate/prospective/faq/#faq3):

"There are no strict cutoffs or quotas pertaining to GRE scores and admission. Averages are reported in some university publications and media such as U.S. News & World Report.

The majority of scores for recently admitted students were over 550 on the verbal portion and over 700 on the quantitative portion, with specific results varying across departments and programs.

Please do not let scores you perceive to be low discourage you from applying, as strengths in other areas can and regularly do compensate."

[isobel_a]

No reason to retake anything.  What's done is done.  Your LOR and academic performance will handle your mental capability; hopefully you addressed this situation in you Statement of Purpose, since it is absolutely where you are meant to explain any inconsistencies that grad committees might see.  If you are overly concerned, simply apply to a few more safety schools.  I know people want that Marquee Name on their PhD's, but being "forced" to attend a Top 50 school (instead of a Top 10) is hardly an academic/professional death sentence.

I'd say with all of the research and excellent grades (and I'd assume LoRs), there's a decent chance that the low GRE score will be seen as anomalous.In engineering, the low verbal score isn't going to hurt you, especially as an international student. The quant is on the low end of the acceptable range, but you're not out of the game. If I were you, I'd contact ETS; I've heard of cases where every student who tested at a given test center on a given day had their scores revoked because of software or other malfunctions.I'd guess that it's a lack of preparation that did you in. I didn't pay for any courses, but I did spend about a week doing timed practice tests. Powerprep (downloadable from the ETS website) would help you get your verbal up by quite a bit, I'd imagine.

Edited January 4, 2012 by isobel_a

[Armadilla]

Jimmy, t'inquiète pas!!! Je peux pas continuer en français ici, alors en anglais: I would just not even worry about it!I know tons of engineers from my home country who got in with stellar quant scores and a very low verbal (something around 320-400). A lot of them got into a number of really good engineering schools (UT Austin, CUNY, not sure about Stanford) Although, it would definitely be very helpful if you had a professor of interest at the university who could bat for you. You don't even have to get too personal and explain the GRE situation, just make sure the professor knows who you are and is very interested in working with you. PM me if you have any questions!

P.S. I would also like to comment on the statements above such as "people score really high and the score is based on their intelligence" and so on. This might be true for the native speakers, but I'm sorry, when you are not familiar with this whole standardized testing system it has nothing to do with your intelligence! On the actual GRE test I haven't seen a word I didn't know (because I learned over a 1000 words for the test!), but the other day I found the word "sartorial" on the official GRE guide and I am not a native speaker of a Latin-based language nor have I ever had a privilege to use tailoring services in my home country, so does failing a question with the word "sartorial" define my verbal abilities?Or maybe my intelligence??Of course not!

Edited January 4, 2012 by Armadilla

[jimmy_01]

Thanks for the encouraging advice isobel_a; merci beaucoup Armadilla. My verbal GRE score is the only vulnerable part of my entire application. I'm hoping that all will go well. I took the GRE during my Master's acedemic semester, and was swamped with course exams and projects when I took the GRE. Am not the type of person to make excuses, but that's what really happened. Also, the questions in the Barron's book I used were not really representative of the actual exam. If I need to take this exam in the future, I will prep up for it in a more extensive manner. Thanks again guys.

[Helpplease123]

P.S. I would also like to comment on the statements above such as "people score really high and the score is based on their intelligence" and so on. This might be true for the native speakers, but I'm sorry, when you are not familiar with this whole standardized testing system it has nothing to do with your intelligence!

Couldn't agree more in terms of the English not a first language part... which is why before I knew too much time had passed I thought the posters TOEFL score may help (and also the SoP as I mentioned, as posters English looks great) my comment was more in the generalisation about all GRE test takers who did well, did so only by practicing questions not by their own intelligence. For native speakers, I do think it can be a valid tool for differentiating between candidates, regardless of familiarity of standardized tests (we don't have them here in England). Anyway, it looks as though this score will be overcome by other positive aspects of the application and hopefully all will be fine.

Jimmy_01: apologies for misinterpreting your post.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Helpplease123

[kaykaykay]

The TOEFL is so easy compared to the GRE verbal that it is not really taken into account because anyone with a decent application has a very good score. And unfortunately when evaluating the verbal GRE not all admins consider whether it is an international student or not. a lot of foreign students get high scores.

But anyway, you cannot do anything with your GRE scores any more. One question is whether your overall application is good enough, the other is how it measures up against all applicants (foreign and domestic). The competition can be pretty strong at top 10 places,that is why some people suggest retake (I know it is too late) . But the verbal GRE is probably less important in your field than other aspects of your application and your application may still stand out. good luck!

Edited January 5, 2012 by kalapocska

[IRToni]

While I agree with posters saying that verbal GRE scores are not too important in Engineering, I also think it's a little disrespectful to go for generalizations the way people do here. I, e.g. am not English native speakers, I didn't go to uni in an English-speaking country etc. and I scored decent on my verbal GRE. Does that make me dumb? I don't think so. I'm also from a country where standardized tests basically don't exist, so I'm not in any way "used to them". Of course, GRE scores don't always reflect aptitude, but I do believe that there's only so much you can study for. GPAs often don't reflect aptitude or ability to do well in Grad school either. I'm not trying to bash anyone and I understand the poster's need for reassurance, I just don't like the insinuation that it's impossible to be good on the verbal GRE as a non-native speaker.

Regarding the poster's problems: I do believe that your undergrad record, Personal Statement and Writing Sample be sufficient to demonstrate your English ability. The GRE is not mainly meant to demonstrate English ability anyway, it's more about breadth of vocabulary (which won't matter in Engineering), Reading Comprehension and "Analytical Writing".

With regards to the TOEFL, it is indeed very easy and is not taken into account as anything beyong proving English ability. However, GRE and TOEFL are both required if you didn't do your undergrad in the US and, as I've argued above, they clearly have different objectives. TOEFL is supposed to demonstrate your ability to use English in an academic context, while the GRE is supposed to demonstrate your abilities in a more general sense.

Not trying to be a downer here, I do think that the poster has a shot at most places, even with the GRE scores he presented. I do, however, also think that they present a hurdle to be overcome in the admission process. Good LORs, GPA, SOPs and Writing Samples should be able to achieve that though.