August 2013 PhD I/O Psych Applicant

[Sarapsy]

I've been reading through the other I/O program posts, and I might have too many questions to try & tack on to someone else's post. I'm graduating from a state university this August with my B.S. (major in Psych, minor in Bio). I have to wait for the next application cycle, and will be starting a PhD program in August 2013. I will post my "stats" and questions, if anyone is able to offer me any words of advice/comments, I would really appreciate your time.

STATS

• Overall GPA: 3.2
  
• Psych GPA: 4.0
  
• GPA in the last 67 credits: 4.0
  
• Research Experience: 2 semesters running pps, doing data entry, filling in for other studies in a social lab, certainly no publications
  
• LOR: 2 very strong, trying to decide between forging a new relationship with another professor or risk a merely "good" letter (I just did really well in his course, not much interaction)
  
• Volunteer: worked as hotline counselor for 1 semester, that's it
  
• Experience: none
  
• GRE: plan to take it in October or November. I'm almost done with my GRE vocab. book, and will continue with the other prep books once I've completed the vocab. I plan on making really competitive scores, I'm a good standardized tester. Frankly, I need it to make up for my GPA as much as possible.
  

QUESTIONS

1. The only reason I came back to school is because I learned about the I/O psych field. While my school is heavily research-oriented, there are no I/O, or Performance Management courses available, although there used to be. The professor (now emeritus) that used to teach the courses is really big in the field. The most interaction I've had with him is phone/email correspondence, although he does run a small consulting company out of this city. Should I approach him about possibly volunteering or shadowing at this company? I fear I may overstep & annoy him.

2. Can someone explain the application timeline? This is my proposed timeline:

-From now - August '12: Finish my bachelors

-August '12 - November '12: Study solely for the GRE, work a little bit to save up some money. Take the GRE in November & send out my scores immediately to my top 4 schools.

-November '12-December '12: Send out applications to the 10 programs I am most interested in. (Is this the correct timeframe for most schools? I know most deadlines are in January)

-January '13-April '13: Wait?

3. I've checked SIOP, SDN, this website, magazine rankings, but it's really hard to find good info on I/O PhD programs! I'm not sure if I have a dud in my application list or not. Please peruse my list and if you see one that you've heard rumors about, please tell me! (I know Stanford & Columbia aren't duds, but I also know there's no chance of acceptance, haha)

-Stanford, Columbia, Michigan State, Colorado State, Baruch College CUNY, Uni. of South Florida, George Washington, George Mason, DePaul, Illinois Ins. of Tech, Purdue, Urbana-Champaign, Seattle Pacific

4. I know my stats are lacking, is there anything you can recommend I do since I have some time?

Thanks for taking the time to read this

[iopsych]

Stanford is a business program, so it is not really an I/O program. I haven't heard that great of things about Teachers College (Columbia). I rarely see stuff from them at SIOP, which to me means they aren't very active in the field or they are going to other conferences (the latter is not really an issue, but it is also not giving you much exposure to the premier I/O conference) . From what I understand they also don't offer full tuition remission and only a portion of the students get a TA or RA. So even if you do get 70-80% of your tuition waived (meaning you have to pay 2-3k per semester you still have no funding to live and you will be in NYC, where to live cheap would cost 30-40k a year. Any program that can't offer full funding to all students throws up a big red flag in my book.

When I was looking at places to go I talked to an I/O professor at my undergrad institution and he told me to shy away from IIT. He told me they often have 15-20 students in each class and just because of #s it ends up being a sort of weed out process because 5 faculty can't successfully advise 20 students (assuming each class kept all 20 and the average student stayed for 5 years). So it ends up being a dogfight to get time with a professor. From their SIOP page it also looks as if they don't offer full funding as well.

I don't know much about Seattle Pacific so I can't really comment on them.

All of the other schools look good. I would check out GW. When I was applying they were an organizational psych. program with no Industrial classes. They said they were shifting the focus to a balanced I and O program, but I'm not sure if they have done this yet.

Something to keep in mind is a PhD is a long difficult process. You don't have time for a job and often because of classes it is difficult to get any form of paid internship until your 3rd-4th year. IMO it is not worth it to go to an unfunded program. If you want to go to an unfunded program get a master's. Even in a fully funded program you often end up with some form of debt (unless you eat Ramen, live with 2-3 roommates and do not spend money on entertainment). I ended up 14k in debt at a fully funded program. That was with 13.5k/year in funding, full tuition remission, and a 12 week summer internship with the Navy where I made 1k/week.

I would say it would be easy to rack up 80-100k in debt for a PhD even if half of the tuition was taken care of and no other source of funding was provided. That is a huge chunk of change. For this reason I would make sure they are fully funded programs.

I was told the following by several PhDs when applying: If they don't offer you full funding it is for one of 2 reasons: 1.) Either they don't really want you, or 2.) It is not a program you want to go to.

[Sarapsy]

Thank you so much for your reply! I was talking to my neuro professor yesterday about funding and your comments match verbatim. I honestly didn't understand the concept of funding and assumed I would be taking out massive loans. I'll revise my list & maybe go back to look at some of the programs I originally nixed due to high tuition/not ideal location. I've heard nothing about Seattle Pacific so that can't be good I guess. I forgot to mention Portland State Uni as well. Thanks so much again, I really appreciate it!

[tauren]

I don't know specifically about I/O programs, but you're going to want to take the GRE in at least September. Many due dates,in psych generally, are in December, some in January. You can only retake the GRE once a month, so if you don't do as well as you would like, you would not have the time to retake and get scores in by deadline. Also, it can take weeks for scores to get to schools, so keep that in mind as well.

[Sarapsy]

Oh man, thanks. I thought I was being overly cautious by planning for October, so I'll definitely plan to be ready by September.

[ILuvPsych2013]

Hi Sarapsy!

I am also applying for I/O PhD programs next fall! I have done a lot of research on programs, requirements, etc., so here's my two cents on your questions:

1) I don't think it is inappropriate to contact this professor about volunteer or internship opportunities at his firm, especially if you have corresponded with him before. Who knows, he might turn out to be a great LOR for you!

2) Like tauren said, you should take the GRE earlier...this way if you are not completely satisfied with your scores, you have the chance to study and retake it before you are in application crunch time. The I/O deadlines range from December 1-January 3. Make sure you know the application due dates at each school you are interested in so that you don't miss out on a top pick!

3) Check out US News Rankings for I/O psych programs:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-humanities-schools/industrial-organizational-psychology-rankings

Michigan State is always on top, along with the University of Minnesota, and USF. Other schools that have good reputations in the I/O field are:

• University of Central Florida (very up and coming, but generating substantial buzz)
  
• University of Maryland
  
• University of Nebraska-Omaha
  
• Bowling Green State University
  
• University of Akron
  

4) Consider doing a senior thesis, which would allow you to do your own research project (this opens you up for a poster/presentation, and possibly even a publication)

I hope this helps!

[Sarapsy]

1) Yes you're right. I guess he can only just say no! I might have to get used to hearing "no" a few times anyways, after reading through all of the past year's acceptance/rejection threads.

2) It's cool we're both applying for next year, when are you planning on taking the GRE? I'm going to revise my list of schools and then try to find out their funding situation/application requirements & deadlines.

3) Thank you for the link! I have seen that list but I've seen other lists that sometimes contradict the info found in other rankings. For instance, I didn't know whether or not to put UCF as a ranked option, but a lot of people have been saying good things about it on this forum, so I will

4) I would LOVE to do one. Is it something that you've been able to do? I will talk to my lab advisor about possible ways for me to accomplish this.

Thanks so much iopsych, tauren, & mschauer!

[Engali]

People have already mentioned some really useful things to consider. I thought I'd throw my two cents in, having recently just finished applying (mostly):

Stats

-Honestly, your overall gpa isn't as strong as it could be and this may hurt you in the application process. Mine was actually a bit worse than yours and I opted to do a master's first to show that I could handle graduate level courses and to get research experience. I applied to 11 master's programs and got accepted into 1--almost two, but someone on the waiting list ahead of me accepted and the school retracted their potential offer...kind of hilarious because that person announced they accepted the offer on this very forum and then I found out from the school a day later. With that in mind, you may want to consider including more "good fit" and "safety" schools on your list. Newer programs that haven't gained a lot of recognition or built a reputation yet can be good options for safety schools. You might want to consider applying to master's programs as well, although this is a controversial approach and many question the value and utility of doing so if your heart is set on getting a PhD. I'll let you know how it went for me come early April.

-Gain more research experience any way you can. Do you think you could some how get permisson to do a directed study?

-You're studying for the GRE a bit early imho. Figure out when you will take the test, register early so you're committed, plan backwards 2-2.5 months before that date to start studying. Devote 2-3 hours per day to studying in 30-40 minute sessions with 5 min breaks in between. On weekend days, bump it up to 3.5-4 hours. Take a practice test when you first start studying to get a baseline, take another at the halfeay point to the test, and take the official ETS practice test two weeks before the test. Note problem areas each time you take a practice test, read the solutions carefully after the tests, and focus on improving those areas. Taper off your studying the last week and do no studying the day before the test. I didn't do any serious studying the first time I took the GREs and by the end I felt like I had done poorly. I opted to not have it scored. I followed the training regimen I just described for my second time around and got a 1450 (V: 720, Q: 730, W: 5.0).

-Consider taking the Psych GRE subject test. Not many programs require it, but I think it might help. Some programs strongly recommend it (BGSU) and at least one on your list (CSU) requires it.

Questions

1. Go ahead--it shows initiative. The key thing, as with contacting anybody, is to know what you're talking about and show how you can contribute. If you can't explain why you're interested in whatever that person is doing, demonstrate that interest by talking about what you've read and done related to that topic, and suggest how your skills can aid that person, then you may want to reconsider contacting them. This is true for this person and for professors at programs you are going to apply for.

2. This looks good in general. I would start the application process in September just so you can see each school's specific statement of purpose and/or personal statement question(s) early. This part of the application is key and you'll need a LOT of time to write one you're happy with--trust me. Look up the book on this by Donald Asher. If you plan on taking the Psych GRE you should take it before the general GRE because it takes up to six weeks to score and send out. The Psych GRE only has three test dates each year, so check now if you plan on taking it.

3. The best source of information for schools are the program websites themselves. I have researched these obsessively and so should you. You want to figure out research interests of the faculty at each program, you want to dig into course catatlogues and see what course requirements and electives there are, and you want to make sure there is a fit. This implies you know your research interests and what your academic and career aspirations are. That implies you've researched these independently and really understand the possibilities. For example, if you want to go into consulting, pick up The I/O Consultant and read about the potential career paths you can take so you can write intelligently on the subject in your SoP. If you don't like relentlessly checking and digging for information to create a more complete picture, this field may not be for you.

As far as the specific programs, as iopsych said Stanford doesn't have an I/O psych program. I believe they have an OB program, which tends to prepare people for teaching and research careers. If you don't know the difference between I/O and OB, I suggest researching it so you can make an informed decision on what field you want to study. GW's program is a bit more balanced than before, but it still leans towards the O side of things. It's actually housed in the Organizational Sciences and Communication department and takes a truly interdisciplinary approach to I/O. They also have a strong emphasis on leadership in their research and curriciulum . Even though it isn't ranked on USNW, it's number one in program satisfaction for I/O PhD programs based on a survey of graduate students. Check the graduate school section of siop.org to read the article that presents the survey results.

Note the ratio of applicants who accept an offer to a school to the number who applied. In general, the higher the ratio, the lower the quality. You'll generally note a relationship between this ratio and amount of funding given as well. I would say that you should add more safety schools to your list, but only the ones that offer full funding and only the ones where the faculty research interests and program focus (are they preparing you for academia, industry, both, etc.) match yours. That should narrow the list substantially.

4. I already mentioned some above. I think you should start thinking about contacting professors of interest at the programs you want to attend. Again, check the Asher book on how to go about this--some of what I've said is straight out of that book.

I think my two cents have turned into two dollars. Hope that helps.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Engali

[Sarapsy]

-You're right about my GPA, my professors have also mentioned that while the past 2 years are great, I can't get around my overall ;( I would really love to know about how your strategy works out for you. I have definitely considered master's, because one of my professors mentioned that it might be something I have to do. I absolutely have my heart set on a PhD program. I will really have to think about risking rejection from all of the schools I apply to.

-I have had 2 semesters of DIS, but I only run experiments for my professor. He is utilizing me much more heavily this semester after being impressed with my ethic last semester so that's great, however it's not a situation where I'm conducting my own study. I have emailed him letting him know that I want to discuss how to get information regarding what it would take for me to be able to run my own study/project. I'm also going to volunteer in another lab this summer.

-Your strategy sums up what the internet suggests for the GRE studying plan. I guess right now I'm not actually "studying" rather than I'm spending time learning new vocabulary. I will definitely register soon, and I do have a psychology subject GRE prep book, although I didn't realize there are only 3 times throughout the year! Thank you so much!

1) I contacted them today and unfortunately the Performance Management work they're doing right now isn't conducive to accepting any volunteers/interns etc. The person I spoke with even went so far as to tell me that perhaps I should look into moving to Atlanta to work with Dr. Aubrey Daniels for an internship and waiting 1-2 years to apply to grad school! Atlanta is a good 7 hours away, and anyways I think that was an extreme suggestion.

2) So in my clinical psych course, we have to turn in a personal statement as part of our final grade. My professor (who actually graduated from Florida Tech) promised me he would grade mine using a discriminating eye and has even suggested strategies to address my low GPA without doing so explicitly. I'm totally going to check out your book recommendation!

3) I definitely need to spend more time researching individual programs and each respective faculty member's area of research. I have looked at the requirements for each of the programs I've listed (I've made a big spreadsheet outlining the differences) but have not spent enough time on the specific research interests. I've been trying to learn as much as I can about the field though, and I do feel it has helped me learn about what my own interests are. I'm a student member of JOBM so I have access to the material on that network which has been really interesting! I knew that Stanford (which let's face it, I'm not getting into) has the business program but I didn't cross it off my list based on that (I knew a certain amount of psych majors were accepted into that program).

Note the ratio of applicants who accept an offer to a school to the number who applied. In general, the higher the ratio, the lower the quality. You'll generally note a relationship between this ratio and amount of funding given as well. I would say that you should add more safety schools to your list, but only the ones that offer full funding and only the ones where the faculty research interests and program focus (are they preparing you for academia, industry, both, etc.) match yours. That should narrow the list substantially. This makes a lot of sense. I guess I have a busy weekend of making an entirely new spreadsheet.

In closing, WOW THANK YOU SO MUCH!

[ILuvPsych2013]

1) Yes you're right. I guess he can only just say no! I might have to get used to hearing "no" a few times anyways, after reading through all of the past year's acceptance/rejection threads.

2) It's cool we're both applying for next year, when are you planning on taking the GRE? I'm going to revise my list of schools and then try to find out their funding situation/application requirements & deadlines.

I plan to start studying in May and take it in late August.

3) Thank you for the link! I have seen that list but I've seen other lists that sometimes contradict the info found in other rankings. For instance, I didn't know whether or not to put UCF as a ranked option, but a lot of people have been saying good things about it on this forum, so I will

Tell me about it! That's one of the most frustrating things about rankings. At first I was going off of SIOP's rankings, but then noticed they haven't been reevaluated in 10 years. Not that the good schools listed have probably all of a sudden become bad schools, but programs that are just emerging will not be represented.

4) I would LOVE to do one. Is it something that you've been able to do? I will talk to my lab advisor about possible ways for me to accomplish this.

Yes, I am doing a senior thesis as part of my honors program requirement. However, most schools will let you do a senior thesis even if you are not in such a program. I would definitely talk to your advisor about how to get this rolling. It would be an extremely valuable experience

Thanks so much iopsych, tauren, & mschauer!

[Sarapsy]

Yes, I am doing a senior thesis as part of my honors program requirement. However, most schools will let you do a senior thesis even if you are not in such a program. I would definitely talk to your advisor about how to get this rolling. It would be an extremely valuable experience

I will do some research into the faculty research areas of my top schools and try to come up with a related idea of my own. Once I have an idea in mind I will definitely schedule a meeting with my advisor so that he can see I'm motivated. I really appreciate your suggestion!

[Engali]

Taking a break from my own research proposal to mention that a great way to start figuring out your own research interests is to buy an older edition intro to I/O text book and read through it to see what intrigues you. You can find some top textbooks one edition older than the most recent version for as little as like $2 at amazon. This is probably a better approach than first looking at the research interests of faculty at programs you want to attend and trying to conform to what you find.

You'll also notice that faculty research interests tend to be a specific sub-topic of I/O, so having an understanding about the general I (selection, job analysis, performance appraisal/management, psychometrics, training and development, etc.) topics and O (motivation, leadership, OD, diversity/cross-cultural factors, etc.) topics will give you a base of knowledge from which you can evaluate their work.

HTH

Edited January 13, 2012 by Engali

[Sarapsy]

Engali- That's funny you mention that, as a friend of mine just got done with an I/O course at her undergrad and sent her text to me. I haven't had a chance to look through it, but I will definitely take the time to do so soon.

In general, thanks everyone for your comments, especially about the advice to go ahead and register for the GRE general & GRE subject exam. I am scheduled to take the General in mid-October, and unfortunately the Psych subject is only offered in April (the saturday before my final exams for this semester). So I'm really happy that I know to study primarily for the Psych Subject over the next few months. Had I tried to register later, I would have had to cram during an already stressful month.

[A.Borealis]

There is definitely still hope. I had a weak overall GPA. However, just about every other aspect of my application was fairly strong to compensate: High GRE scores, strong LOR's, substantial research experience, poster presentations, and 4.0 psych GPA. I also second the Asher book. My personal statements would have not been as convincing without it.

Despite my low GPA I have been accepted at two fully, funded PhD programs so far.

Best of luck!

[mkeegin]

I wanted to say 2 things about this:

1. Honestly, rankings don't matter. What does matter (and quite frankly in my opinion is the most important thing) is FIT. Fit with a professor's research interests and proof that you are competent in that area through research and publications speaks volumes.

2. To go hand in hand with that, GRE scores aren't going to make up for the fact that you don't have any experience. You need to contact anyone and everyone (honestly ANY kind of psych-related research) so you can to do scholarly research.

Unless you're leaning applied, PhD programs won't bat an eye to reject people who don't have the experience coming in. It sucks, but it's the reality of how competitive the programs are.

A last note: I am currently an undergrad at Michigan State which I noticed was one of the schools you listed....from what I've heard during this application cycle the competition is only getting more intense. You're looking at the "number one" program in the country, so I guess take that into account with what I've already said about research experience & fit when looking at programs of interest.

P.S. Not trying to be rude by any means but going through this application cycle has taught me a lot about what really "matters" when applying!