Employment Prospects- MPP

[bgreenster]

I think that your message can be valid in this situation, but that the way it's being presented is taking away from its helpfulness. Yes, we all need to be realistic about our shots at success post-grad, but I also like to think hard work can pay off. I didn't get the impression that the law school issue was so much not being able to cut it, as realizing thatit wasn't the right path. I have friends who did well in undergrad, went to law school, and quit after a year rather than incur further debt for a career they realized they weren't interested in. I think that's much smarter than just pushing through and finding yourself in "massive debt" for something you don't enjoy.

The reason people are finding your comments "trollish" is due to the personal attacks on the OP. Bashing the OP's intelligence and saying it's completely impossible due to the law school thing is mostly just offensive and not helpful. Personally, I would appreciate your type of advice IF it were presented in a truly helpful way, clearly stating what will be difficult in finding employment post-MPP. Also, it would be more helpful to suggest options that would be better suited for what the OP (and others) may like to do. I think we could all benefit from people with consulting experience if they were to give practical, useful afvice.

[method]

So to continue...ya, depends on what u can deliver. Hardest part at the big consulting firms is getting that first interview so going to a school with good ties to your firm of choice is very important. The interviews are easy cheesy.

Hey, I don't know much about the MPP recruiting world, as my recent focus has been on the MBA side. What types of roles, titles, and salaries are offered at Heinz? Especially from companies such as Deloitte and Booz?

For example, on the MBA side, I know most experienced hires are offered positions with Deloitte Strategy and Operations, either as generalists or functional specialists. Salaries are usually around $125k base + $40k signing + $10k early sign + $25-40k performance bonus. I don't have any expectation that the MSPPM numbers are anywhere close, but I wanted to get your inside take on how Heinz lines up.

Any info you can cough up would be awesome! Titles especially since I can LinkedIn or Glassdoor search for profiles and salaries.

Edited February 28, 2012 by method

[m4g1c0ff3]

I left law school because I knew it would get me no where. clearly the same place its gotten you since you sit around on posts to screw with people. Also, the reason I went to that school in the first place was because of a more than decent scholarship and a mis understanding of the job market. Ive talked to Dave Eber, Howard Hoegge and other deans from these programs. They've made it clear, if you failed out of law school we do not want you. They wanted me to show a real desire to change, and most importantly, they wanted to see I didn't screw up. One of my professors from Law school wrote me and LOR.

Do you realize that people who were editors of their schools law reviews can't find work at some schools? The market I was in was way to hostile to any shot of a career. Thats why I left.

I have some advice, why don't you kill yourself? Stop assuming you know my life story.

[senatorsmith85]

As somebody who doesn't know a thing about consulting, I have to say that this thread has provided entertainment by the truckload for the rest of us.

Keep it up!

[adollarninetynine]

I left law school because I knew it would get me no where. clearly the same place its gotten you since you sit around on posts to screw with people. Also, the reason I went to that school in the first place was because of a more than decent scholarship and a mis understanding of the job market. Ive talked to Dave Eber, Howard Hoegge and other deans from these programs. They've made it clear, if you failed out of law school we do not want you. They wanted me to show a real desire to change, and most importantly, they wanted to see I didn't screw up. One of my professors from Law school wrote me and LOR.

Do you realize that people who were editors of their schools law reviews can't find work at some schools? The market I was in was way to hostile to any shot of a career. Thats why I left.

I have some advice, why don't you kill yourself? Stop assuming you know my life story.

i am sorry i may sound harsh but the truth is i keep trying to tell you the truth about the situation in the real world because i have seen my friends get screwed because they were stubborn and a bit naive like you. what the deans say have no place in this discussion. they aren't the ones that will be interviewing and hiring you at consulting firms. i am sorry to sound a bit elitist but what did you expect by not attending at least a top 20 law school? you made the awful decision of attending a TTT law school because you didn't properly RESEARCH the job market and reality and you are making the same mistake again by assuming you will get a consulting gig to pay off a huge debt with a MPA/MPP from CMU.

think about the facts again. you have no consulting/finance/banking experience, you have low academic credentials, and you have a gap in your resume that says TTT law school. you really think a quality consulting firm will hire you over other top MBA students and professionals who do not have your weaknesses? i hope you know that you will not be competing with undergrads, with a master's you will be interviewing as a senior associate.

i don't get why you think i am trying to ruin your dreams. if you were going to CMU for more grounded reasons i could understand, but you are going seeing consulting as the end game with no marketable skills to offer the firms. you think having CMU on your resume is going to get your hired? if that were so HKS, SIPA, GSPP, and etc. students would all get the job. it is funny how i keep telling you to look at the employment stats and you refuse to even acknowledge them.

Edited February 28, 2012 by adollarninetynine

[inquisitive87]

Yeah, even though the flinging around of insults and diatribes on how little a stranger online might know about consulting seems counter-intuitive of a forum largely dedicated to exploring careers in public service (a career undertaken, one hopes, in the interest of bettering the lives of strangers regardless of their personalities), I think you are at least providing a service to those of us who have spent the last 12 weeks looking for any excuse not to think about our applications. In that sense, thank you. Although, I do hope that people can get that whole condescension/intellectual arrogance thing worked out by August...

OP: Do what you think you love; even if you fail, it won't be a wasted life.

[method]

i am sorry i may sound harsh but the truth is i keep trying to tell you the truth about the situation in the real world because i have seen my friends get screwed because they were stubborn and a bit naive like you. what the deans say have no place in this discussion. they aren't the ones that will be interviewing and hiring you at consulting firms. i am sorry to sound a bit elitist but what did you expect by not attending at least a top 20 law school? you made the awful decision of attending a TTT law school because you didn't properly RESEARCH the job market and reality and you are making the same mistake again by assuming you will get a consulting gig to pay off a huge debt with a MPA/MPP from CMU.

think about the facts again. you have no consulting/finance/banking experience, you have low academic credentials, and you have a gap in your resume that says TTT law school. you really think a quality consulting firm will hire you over other top MBA students and professionals who do not have your weaknesses? i hope you know that you will not be competing with undergrads, with a master's you will be interviewing as a senior associate.

i don't get why you think i am trying to ruin your dreams. if you were going to CMU for more grounded reasons i could understand, but you are going seeing consulting as the end game with no marketable skills to offer the firms. you think having CMU on your resume is going to get your hired? if that were so HKS, SIPA, GSPP, and etc. students would all get the job. it is funny how i keep telling you to look at the employment stats and you refuse to even acknowledge them.

There are actually some good points in here, but I don't get the impression the OP is consulting-or-bust.

[JAubrey]

i am sorry i may sound harsh but the truth is i keep trying to tell you the truth about the situation in the real world because i have seen my friends get screwed because they were stubborn and a bit naive like you. what the deans say have no place in this discussion. they aren't the ones that will be interviewing and hiring you at consulting firms. i am sorry to sound a bit elitist but what did you expect by not attending at least a top 20 law school? you made the awful decision of attending a TTT law school because you didn't properly RESEARCH the job market and reality and you are making the same mistake again by assuming you will get a consulting gig to pay off a huge debt with a MPA/MPP from CMU.

think about the facts again. you have no consulting/finance/banking experience, you have low academic credentials, and you have a gap in your resume that says TTT law school. you really think a quality consulting firm will hire you over other top MBA students and professionals who do not have your weaknesses? i hope you know that you will not be competing with undergrads, with a master's you will be interviewing as a senior associate.

i don't get why you think i am trying to ruin your dreams. if you were going to CMU for more grounded reasons i could understand, but you are going seeing consulting as the end game with no marketable skills to offer the firms. you think having CMU on your resume is going to get your hired? if that were so HKS, SIPA, GSPP, and etc. students would all get the job. it is funny how i keep telling you to look at the employment stats and you refuse to even acknowledge them.

I admire your tenacity adollarninetynine, despite repeatedly lying and getting caught you keep at it, good job sport.

Now if you HAD actually worked at MBB or even a solid second tier firms, you'd know that master's degree students do INDEED compete against undergrads in most cases NOT MBAs. I speak from experience, in my cadre for instance about a third had master's degrees be they in finance, economics, history, international relations, engineering, etc. and another third had work experience (normally under two years). MBAs on the other-hand started on the rung above us (this is mirrored in our two closest competitors as well as the top niche firms and even the large Big Four consultancies).

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about.

To the OP, yes you are not in the best place regarding your undergrad and law school history, but do well in your master's and network network network and you will have a shot at securing an interview at a solid second tier consultancy and from there it is up to you (how well you test, interview, and how you do on the required case studies). Firms like Deloitte, Accenture, EY, and PwC are all in reach. Are they MBB? No. But they all do some interesting work and you will learn loads. On campus recruiting will be your best bet, utilize career services as much as possible.

[MYRNIST]

As somebody who doesn't know a thing about consulting, I have to say that this thread has provided entertainment by the truckload for the rest of us.

Keep it up!

Second this.

If this is what consulting is like - people endlessly feuding about the exact twists and turns their professional path took, rather than focusing on their deliverable skills like grown adults - I am even more glad I have no desire for that kind of work.

Edited February 29, 2012 by MYRNIST

[adollarninetynine]

I admire your tenacity adollarninetynine, despite repeatedly lying and getting caught you keep at it, good job sport.

Now if you HAD actually worked at MBB or even a solid second tier firms, you'd know that master's degree students do INDEED compete against undergrads in most cases NOT MBAs. I speak from experience, in my cadre for instance about a third had master's degrees be they in finance, economics, history, international relations, engineering, etc. and another third had work experience (normally under two years). MBAs on the other-hand started on the rung above us (this is mirrored in our two closest competitors as well as the top niche firms and even the large Big Four consultancies).

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about.

To the OP, yes you are not in the best place regarding your undergrad and law school history, but do well in your master's and network network network and you will have a shot at securing an interview at a solid second tier consultancy and from there it is up to you (how well you test, interview, and how you do on the required case studies). Firms like Deloitte, Accenture, EY, and PwC are all in reach. Are they MBB? No. But they all do some interesting work and you will learn loads. On campus recruiting will be your best bet, utilize career services as much as possible.

why are you still here? you give terrible advice and just say what OP wants to hear. i thought we already established that you don't work at a top tier consulting firm and that you have nothing to argue against my empirical arguments. just forget everything and answer this since you have been avoiding the question.

DO YOU THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO GO TO CMU WITH THE INTENT TO PAY OFF SIX FIGURES OF DEBT BY CONSULTING IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WITH OP'S SITUATION IN MIND?

you can keep saying i am not qualified to speak on this subject, but if i am so wrong in my assessment, PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO INTERPRET THE EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS of the schools since you seem to think i am wrong. what is hilarious is that even if you were right (which you are not) in that OP will be competing with undergrads, his income still won't be enough to pay off his debt with reasonable comfort. so let us summarize what you are advising:

OP will have a really hard time getting even an entry position at a mediocre consulting firm since he has zero marketable skills and will have six figures of debt, BUT you think he should take this massive gamble if he "networks" and works on his case studies a lot? wow, just wow... just the fact that you think like this makes me worry about your work quality and your ability to consult with other organizations. do you advise your clients to invest over 100K in a project that has a low probability of even being able to pay off the initial investment?

i can't speak for other firms, but when i worked at MBB and when they recruited at my law school, we were exclusively sought out as senior associates and they made it clear that anyone with a professional master's degree (including MPPs/MPAs) would be hired as a senior associate. i don't even think they recruited seriously at HKS. if you don't believe, just do some basic google searches.

[Xoan]

why are you still here? you give terrible advice and just say what OP wants to hear. i thought we already established that you don't work at a top tier consulting firm and that you have nothing to argue against my empirical arguments. just forget everything and answer this since you have been avoiding the question.

DO YOU THINK IT IS A GOOD IDEA TO GO TO CMU WITH THE INTENT TO PAY OFF SIX FIGURES OF DEBT BY CONSULTING IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR WITH OP'S SITUATION IN MIND?

you can keep saying i am not qualified to speak on this subject, but if i am so wrong in my assessment, PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO INTERPRET THE EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS of the schools since you seem to think i am wrong. what is hilarious is that even if you were right (which you are not) in that OP will be competing with undergrads, his income still won't be enough to pay off his debt with reasonable comfort. so let us summarize what you are advising:

OP will have a really hard time getting even an entry position at a mediocre consulting firm since he has zero marketable skills and will have six figures of debt, BUT you think he should take this massive gamble if he "networks" and works on his case studies a lot? wow, just wow... just the fact that you think like this makes me worry about your work quality and your ability to consult with other organizations. do you advise your clients to invest over 100K in a project that has a low probability of even being able to pay off the initial investment?

i can't speak for other firms, but when i worked at MBB and when they recruited at my law school, we were exclusively sought out as senior associates and they made it clear that anyone with a professional master's degree (including MPPs/MPAs) would be hired as a senior associate. i don't even think they recruited seriously at HKS. if you don't believe, just do some basic google searches.

My 2 cents on this issue, and take note that I don't have any consulting experience.

@dollarninetynine, your advice isn't that great either. You told OP that his chances of actually getting into a top MPP program were very small, yet he did get into a pretty good one. You insist that his main problem is the lack of marketable skills, yet you only know that he dropped out of a TTT and has no prior consulting experience, but ¿what about his soft skills?, ¿what about the "indirect" skills that may get him noticed, even a little bit? your opinion is based on a few pieces of information that OP has given to you. Honestly, telling him that he DOES NOT HAVE CHANCE of getting into private sector is a generalized and poorly based opinion. I understand your argument and think you may be right about the difficulties OP may face when trying to get into top level consulting firms, but this does not mean you know him or can properly assess his skills.

Would you give advice on a particular investment solely based on a couple of google searches? I think/hope not.

Yes, you are being honest and maybe even realistic, but still, your opinion has shifted from your original posts, you began with "slim chances", and now your are telling OP that he may very well give up and try something else.

Unfortunately, OP, your road ahead will be extremely difficult, you may have to shift some of your expectations or be open to other options, but that does not mean it will be impossible.

Regarding employment statistics, $1.99, is right, private-sector has the lowest hiring percent, even at top level programs.

My 2 cents.

[adollarninetynine]

when i said slim chances at a top program, i literally meant top. CMU is a fine program, but it is no WWS/HKS/SAIS and OP will not be attending a top program. soft skills do not get you interviews at consulting firms. i have seen consulting applications ask for GPAs, SAT scores, LSAT scores, and even GRE scores, but i have never seen one that asks for "soft" factors other than work experience. maybe even jaubrey can probably agree with me on this one. why would a firm take someone who cannot create/add value through marketable/practical skills? even if he was "noticed", he would still have to get through a set of difficult interviews depending on which firm he interviews with. a top consulting firm is not going to take a CMU grad with no marketable skills over another applicant from a better school.

let me make it clear that i do not think OP has a 0% chance of getting what he/she wants. i think OP has a less than 10% chance. why anyone would gamble six figures on a less than 10% confuses me. i wouldn't even advise a HKS/WWS student to pursue school with consulting in mind from what i have seen on campus. when i said google searches, i meant for the OP to do some BASIC research. even BASIC research on OP's part would reveal what i've been trying to say.

regardless, the main thing is that even those who disagree with me or dislike me in this thread seem to agree that consulting will be a ridiculously tough task for OP with his background.

[MYRNIST]

i wouldn't even advise a HKS/WWS student to pursue school with consulting in mind from what i have seen on campus.

If you don't think even graduates of the two most elite schools on the planet should pursue consulting, who exactly do you think should? Martians?

I agree with your general point (that it's a tough field to get into), but guess what, thousands of people do every single year. It's consulting, not the freaking Illuminati. You got in. JAubrey got in. I can name 5 different friends who got in, and most of them went to considerably less prestigious schools than Harvard and Princeton. Up and out means there are constant openings.

Your statements about not taking on massive debt for a MPP/MPA degree are, IMO, completely correct regardless of your career path. I think OP would be a fool to take on big debt for grad school.

But you really don't need to act like consulting is some completely unreachable goal even for elite applicants. Especially since my spider-sense tells me the reason you adopt this condescending jackass persona and hype up the difficulty is mostly to stroke your own ego. OP, even a 1600/4.0 Ivy grad applying for consulting will get boiling coffee hurled in their face and forcibly removed from the building. It's a secret society only accessible by superhuman paragons of awesome... LIKE MYSELF! Did I mention I worked in consulting? Oh, like 6 times? Whatever, talking down to people on the Internet gives me such a diamond cutter.

Edited March 1, 2012 by MYRNIST

[adollarninetynine]

i am not talking about EVERY consulting job in this case. i was only referring to the consulting jobs (top ones) that will pay a high enough salary for the OP to pay off his six figures of debt. people who either already have consulting/business experiences and are pursuing MBAs have a huge advantage over MPP/MPA students.

i am not doubting the quality of students who pursue a degree at WWS/HKS. i am saying students at these schools have tough odds because of their backgrounds. most of my classmates came from public sector/public service backgrounds and they did not have the experience and skills to get through the rigorous interview case studies and such. working on the hill or at a non profit makes it hard to develop some of the skills nedded to pass the case study interviews which is to be expected. even among top MBA students, the competition is fierce.

i know i may sound like a douche on the internet but i really am not in real life. i just hate watching people make terrible decisions and waste their lives paying off huge debts. i have no ego and i don't take anything in life for granted. i will be the first to admit that luck played a huge factor in my getting into consulting since i know many applicants and classmates who are smarter than me who failed. the reason i probably sound elitist is becausei am describing consulting firm culture and consulting firms are elitist. that is just the nature of the industry. maybe i am so caught up in this topic since i have seen so many of my friends from school in horrible situations because they were so set on a certain job due to their debt burdens.

school name plus resume gets you the interview but from there on out, the applicant is on their own. your friends who didn't come from WWS/HKS succeeded because their skillsets were better than other applicants regardless of school names.

[method]

From what I understand, Heinz has one of the best practical skill curriculums in the world. On the MBA side, Tepper is no M7, but is still capable of landing McKinsey and Bain in part thanks to a fantastic consulting club. I'm sure any Heinz student that is genuinely interested in consulting would be given access to the club for case interview practices and peer coaching. If we end up on campus together this Fall, I'll certainly help make that connection if necessary.

[adollarninetynine]

capable does not equal a decent shot.

[method]

You said it yourself, the school brand can only get you so far. The consensus I've heard time and time again from MBA admissions student panels is that if you have a specific industry/company in mind, you want a school that can put you in front of them, and the rest is up to you.

CMU is capable of putting candidates in front of top consulting firms. The decent shot is up to the individual.

[adollarninetynine]

yes i think we agree on that point. CMU will give OP a good shot at getting intial interviews at firms not named MBB. the only point i was trying to make is that OP would be naive to take out six figures of debt to go to CMU just to get consulting since even the smartest have trouble landing those jobs. and with OP's background, his chance to outshine those others would be slim.