So torn!!! Help!

[MakeYourself]

Hi all,

Well my dream has come true and I've been accepted to 2 of my top choices for grad school!

But I'm so torn over which school to choose! I compiled a small list of all the pros and cons of the schools and I was hoping that you wonderful folks would help give me some insight into what's best for me.

School 1

Pros:

Work well with supervisor (he was my undergraduate supervisor and we have a great working relationship)

Love the school and people in the department

They will match the offer of funding that I get from the other school as well as let me keep my government scholarship along with a fellowship, AND they will give me a TAship.

Cons:

Research is narrow and I would HAVE to go into academia afterwards

Less well-known school, but still a good school.

Same school as I did my undergrad at - I think this may be frowned upon

School 2

Pros:

Advisor is well-rounded and open to different areas of the field, so I would have a wider range of opportunities for what I do my research on

I could get a job not only in academia but also in public policy or education afterwards because the research relates to so many fields

Bigger school, and more well-known

Cons:

Advisor is not tenured and I would basically be his first ever grad student

I don't know what my relationship with the advisor would be like - it's a risk

I'm not sure about their funding yet - I haven't received the details and I still need to ask them if they will match offers from other schools.

Thanks!

[ktel]

Obviously only you can make this decision. I would stress that the relationship you have with your supervisor and the research fit should be your top priorities. Don't let school prestige sway you at all. You're not working with the whole school, you're working with one person. There's nothing necessarily wrong with an untenured professor. I considered one when I was doing my supervisor search. She seemed very invested in the success of her students, as it impacted her success as well. They had nothing but good things to say about her.

[MakeYourself]

Obviously only you can make this decision. I would stress that the relationship you have with your supervisor and the research fit should be your top priorities. Don't let school prestige sway you at all. You're not working with the whole school, you're working with one person. There's nothing necessarily wrong with an untenured professor. I considered one when I was doing my supervisor search. She seemed very invested in the success of her students, as it impacted her success as well. They had nothing but good things to say about her.

Thanks for your response.

I've heard that an untenured professor might be less inclined to let their students be first author on publications because he/she will want the authorship in order to get tenure. How true is this?

Also, doesn't it look better when I'm looking for jobs if I went to a more well-known university? Or is that just a myth?

I really appreciate any advice I can get!

[coonskee]

I think that the school you attend will only have a significant impact on your job search if you're looking for a job outside of academia. If you're looking to stay in the ivory tower, the quality of research you will do will likely have a more significant impact.

[risingsun11801]

I am not 100% sure about all fields of psychology, but a professor should want the last author on a paper, not the first author, if they are up for tenure. The last author spot is reserved for the head of the lab that oversees the research project. This is much more desirable for tenure-track faculty.

In terms of a more well-known university, it matters more outside of academia where people aren't familiar with individual researchers or programs. Keep in mind a highly ranked department may be at a not-so-highly-ranked school. Employers should know this if they are hiring for a position specifically related to your degree. For a more general position where multiple degrees could prepare you for the job, the overall name of the university may be more important. The most important thing when finding a job, however, is going to be the connections you make through your advisor/program. Where have previous graduates ended up?

[MakeYourself]

So I guess I shouldn't be deciding on a school based on ranking.... but this is still going to be so tough!

On the one hand I have an advisor who I work so well with and who's research I enjoy.

On the other hand I have an advisor who's research I'm REALLY interested in but I'm not sure what our working relationship will be like.

Should I factor in the fact that one of these schools was my undergraduate school? I hear that's frowned upon in academia.

[surefire]

First, congrats.

Second, every life decision of mine gets a pro/con list! I love knowing that others segment their life in this manner as well!

I would say, if the funding pans out, option 2 - hands down!

The academic incest thing is a big no-no, from what I gather. It is worth considering, however, that most of the scorn that I have been party to with regards to this course reverbates within and around academic circles. That is, I can't say whether or not it would be considered disadvantageous "out there", in a non-academic employment setting. Thus, you might find yourself in a bit of a conundrum with option 1: you say you would have to go into academia, but the academic sector is where you are most likely to encounter the stigma attached to those that do undergrad and grad school at the same uni. So, your options may not only be limited as far as WHAT sector (academia) but also WHICH institutions in that sector (i.e. the ones that don't get hung up on your unilateral backround). With this in mind, I maintain that doing grad school away from your undergrad uni helps you to 1) grow as a person AND academic (you mention the narrow research thing, that would put me off...) and 2) keep your opportunities open (non-academic options remain open and academic options are more promising... hey, maybe you WILL want an academic career down the line, 5-ish years is a long time to get comfy).

Also, I would not be discouraged if the supervisor role is undetermined/untested. These alignments are always a risk. You just have to remember that the prof. is in your employ, as you are in theirs. If the relationship doesn't work, there are ways to renegotiate or switch supervisors entirely.

One of my thesis committee members didn't even have her PhD finalized when I started working with her. She is now swamped with students and I'm known as one of the first in her "brood". She's kind of an upstart and is producing interesting research NOW, and I appreciated what that dynamic did for my work and opportunites. This, for me, was preferable than having an extremely established tenured prof., one that is distinguished but producing less. Because this committee member of mine had so much going on, the students that she had had ample opportunity to get in on pub authorships. Sure, she had less funding than a tenured prof, but she spread the funding around to a boatload of different projects. She was like Oprah with the publications and conferences (YOU get a first authorship! YOU get a first authorship!...)

That, however, is my experience. You may require an additional list for "Priorities"; break it down into "must have", "would ideally have" and "could live without" columns and see which option best fufills these.

Good luck!

[MakeYourself]

First, congrats.

Second, every life decision of mine gets a pro/con list! I love knowing that others segment their life in this manner as well!

I would say, if the funding pans out, option 2 - hands down!

The academic incest thing is a big no-no, from what I gather. It is worth considering, however, that most of the scorn that I have been party to with regards to this course reverbates within and around academic circles. That is, I can't say whether or not it would be considered disadvantageous "out there", in a non-academic employment setting. Thus, you might find yourself in a bit of a conundrum with option 1: you say you would have to go into academia, but the academic sector is where you are most likely to encounter the stigma attached to those that do undergrad and grad school at the same uni. So, your options may not only be limited as far as WHAT sector (academia) but also WHICH institutions in that sector (i.e. the ones that don't get hung up on your unilateral backround). With this in mind, I maintain that doing grad school away from your undergrad uni helps you to 1) grow as a person AND academic (you mention the narrow research thing, that would put me off...) and 2) keep your opportunities open (non-academic options remain open and academic options are more promising... hey, maybe you WILL want an academic career down the line, 5-ish years is a long time to get comfy).

Also, I would not be discouraged if the supervisor role is undetermined/untested. These alignments are always a risk. You just have to remember that the prof. is in your employ, as you are in theirs. If the relationship doesn't work, there are ways to renegotiate or switch supervisors entirely.

One of my thesis committee members didn't even have her PhD finalized when I started working with her. She is now swamped with students and I'm known as one of the first in her "brood". She's kind of an upstart and is producing interesting research NOW, and I appreciated what that dynamic did for my work and opportunites. This, for me, was preferable than having an extremely established tenured prof., one that is distinguished but producing less. Because this committee member of mine had so much going on, the students that she had had ample opportunity to get in on pub authorships. Sure, she had less funding than a tenured prof, but she spread the funding around to a boatload of different projects. She was like Oprah with the publications and conferences (YOU get a first authorship! YOU get a first authorship!...)

That, however, is my experience. You may require an additional list for "Priorities"; break it down into "must have", "would ideally have" and "could live without" columns and see which option best fufills these.

Good luck!

Wow, this was so helpful, thank you so much! (And I totally laughed out loud at the Oprah joke).

Your point about how going to the same school might limit my job opportunities in terms of schools that look down on academic incest is really helpful as well. From talking to different professors, I've noticed that there are a lot of mixed feelings on this and it would be a risk for sure if I were to stay at the same school.

I think I'll try your suggestion of making a list of priorities, hopefully I can make a decision that I feel good about soon!

[ktel]

I will note that the opinion on academic incest varies. I have seen it to be quite common in my field (engineering). When I look at the CVs of professors at MIT, for example, I frequently see people who have done all their degrees there and now teach there.

[MakeYourself]

I will note that the opinion on academic incest varies. I have seen it to be quite common in my field (engineering). When I look at the CVs of professors at MIT, for example, I frequently see people who have done all their degrees there and now teach there.

Good point. I think that basically it's different from school to school and even professor to professor. I had a professor from my undergraduate school once tell me that she thinks academic incest is terrible and it shouldn't be allowed. But at the same time, my undergraduate school has several profs who all did their undergrad and graduate degrees at the same school and now work there.

I guess the point that surefire was trying to make was that it will probably not be impossible for me to find a job afterwards, but it may limit my opportunities because some schools/faculty might look down on it.