Other Grad Students

[supergradgirl]

I'm new to the forum, hi!

So I'm a grad student in a program where morale is extremely low right now. The job market sucks in our field, most of us gave up on academic jobs long ago and are heading for the field, and the level of extra and totally unrewarded committee work that we're expected to do is a lot higher than it is in other programs I know of. As is the case everywhere in the world, there are a core group of people (students) who end up bearing the brunt of this extra work and/or have advisors who are especially demanding of their time. So there's kind of this general resentment of any other students who manage to have outside lives because they don't have demanding advisors or get stuck with crappy extra, unrewarded work. And the "I work soooo much harder than you do" wars get really, really nasty sometimes.

I'm one of a number of grad students in the program who have decided to "cross over" out of this core group and instead start focusing on what really matters in life. We're not going academic, we've developed lives with our own families, friends, and hobbies outside of grad school, and the faculty are totally happy with our work and supportive of our decision to go non-academic -- but of course the other grad students who aren't so fortunate (or, arguably, have chosen to take on unnecessary work through a variety of crappy decisions and interpersonal approaches that have snowballed over the years...) are super-resentful of this and can be really backbiting and nasty about it.

I know the standard advice here is just to try to ignore what nasty, unhappy people have to say -- misery loves company, judgmental people are often unhappiest with themselves, etc. etc. I guess I'm just wondering if there are other programs like this, where it's not so much the faculty or the funding or the job market, but it's actually the other students who are the most miserable part of grad school! Empathy, anyone?

[jeenyus]

I'm one of a number of grad students in the program who have decided to "cross over" out of this core group and instead start focusing on what really matters in life. We're not going academic, we've developed lives with our own families, friends, and hobbies outside of grad school, and the faculty are totally happy with our work and supportive of our decision to go non-academic -- but of course the other grad students who aren't so fortunate (or, arguably, have chosen to take on unnecessary work through a variety of crappy decisions and interpersonal approaches that have snowballed over the years...) are super-resentful of this and can be really backbiting and nasty about it.

I know the standard advice here is just to try to ignore what nasty, unhappy people have to say -- misery loves company, judgmental people are often unhappiest with themselves, etc. etc. I guess I'm just wondering if there are other programs like this, where it's not so much the faculty or the funding or the job market, but it's actually the other students who are the most miserable part of grad school! Empathy, anyone?

I don't mean this in a rude or disrespectful way, but how can you possibly assume what your colleagues are thinking? To you, their so called "crappy decisions and interpersonal approaches" might seem unfortunate, but that isn't really any of your business, is it? How do you know what's going on inside their heads? Do they openly "resent" you for your personal life? I'm just trying to convey a different perspective and in no means am trying to insult you. Also, the judging seems to be going both ways - you are technically judging them for their decisions as well by calling them "crappy" and "unfortunate." It just seems really self-centered. These are your perspectives, but their experiences might be different.

Why focus on this anyways? You seem to be happy with your decision to place more importance on your personal life so why not just be happy and leave it at that? Either way this seems like a really toxic cohort where everything is polarized into "academic path" and "non-academic path" where both sides are judging each other.

edit for grammar

Edited February 18, 2012 by jeenyus

[supergradgirl]

jeenyus, yep -- actually they do openly resent people who have personal lives, myself included. And yep, the judgment goes both ways. I don't approve of people being nasty and spiteful toward others who aren't responsible for their bad choices and/or unfortunate circumstances. It sucks to be around that kind of toxicity, as you said. And as I said, I know the standard advice and was just asking for a little empathy from others who may be dealing with the same issues. Oh well. Asking too much of the interbutts, I suppose.

[mandarin.orange]

Yes, it happens, and I can empathize as there were some in my MS cohort my 2nd-3rd year with that sort of a toxicity, though it swung the other way with them being not very productive at all. I described it a little in last spring (see post #7). Often these dynamics pass as new students and cohorts come in, and people drop out/graduate.

Negative nellies are in all walks of life; some of the worst offenders I've seen were my fellow teachers in the high school where I worked or met at summer workshops. At least you have the support of your friends and family "outside" your academic life, and it sounds like there are at least a few others in your program who are likeminded!

[fuzzylogician]

Fascinating. I'm one of those people who ends up doing more than others because, as you say, not everybody contributes equally to the department's communal needs. I don't resent anybody's choice to prioritize differently than I do and, say, spend more time with their family, but I'd like to think that those people who do less at least appreciate it that someone else is picking up their slack. Your attitude towards the people who are doing more work because you chose to do less is remarkably ungrateful. If you were in my department, I wouldn't want to be your friend.

From your end of things, you don't owe anything to anyone. You can continue to prioritize as you do and just avoid the people whose company you don't appreciate, but I find it hard to sympathize with you. Sorry.

[supergradgirl]

I completely understand what it is to do more than everyone else -- as my frustrated tone may have concealed, I'm actually not one of the slackers. I share in the work with others whenever I'm called upon to do so, offer help when people seem overwhelmed, and contribute voluntarily when I know there's a real need. What frustrates me is the badge of honor club mentality -- people often create extra work for themselves to model to everyone how awesome and considerate they are, but then they turn around and resent it if you'd rather, say, do something outside the program than participate in these extra tasks. What we have is a clique, I guess -- people who make up extra rules and norms above and beyond and then backbite and snipe at people who don't care about these extra rules and norms (because the faculty/dept/etc. sure don't!).

Some of the work they have is truly necessary, and I empathize and support by lending them a hand and doing my share of what I've been assigned to do. I get that some people are just unlucky with this. Advisors are (sometimes) luck of the draw until you get there and find out what you've gotten yourself into. Committees are necessary, and doing a passable job with those who matter is important. But a select group of students arbitrarily deciding there should be extra rules, standards of behavior, and minimal acceptable contributions above and beyond what the faculty care about and want to make sure someone's doing a decent job of? That's where I get off the boat.

Also, fuzzylogician, I can empathize, but I've found that expecting slackers to be grateful or appreciative is a stretch. In most cases, I've found that they have the following attitude -- "why the heck are these people doing so much work, when obviously there are ways to get away with not doing a whole lot?" Maybe it's a crappy attitude (ok, it absolutely is), but I can also appreciate that it's rational from their perspective.

mandarin orange, you're right. Graduation/turnover could really help here!

[fuzzylogician]

I completely understand what it is to do more than everyone else -- as my frustrated tone may have concealed, I'm actually not one of the slackers. I share in the work with others whenever I'm called upon to do so, offer help when people seem overwhelmed, and contribute voluntarily when I know there's a real need. What frustrates me is the badge of honor club mentality -- people often create extra work for themselves to model to everyone how awesome and considerate they are, but then they turn around and resent it if you'd rather, say, do something outside the program than participate in these extra tasks. What we have is a clique, I guess -- people who make up extra rules and norms above and beyond and then backbite and snipe at people who don't care about these extra rules and norms (because the faculty/dept/etc. sure don't!).

Some of the work they have is truly necessary, and I empathize and support by lending them a hand and doing my share of what I've been assigned to do. I get that some people are just unlucky with this. Advisors are (sometimes) luck of the draw until you get there and find out what you've gotten yourself into. Committees are necessary, and doing a passable job with those who matter is important. But a select group of students arbitrarily deciding there should be extra rules, standards of behavior, and minimal acceptable contributions above and beyond what the faculty care about and want to make sure someone's doing a decent job of? That's where I get off the boat.

In that case, I go back to saying that you just need to stay away from these people, and now I can also empathize. My program is nothing like this, but that sounds highly dysfunctional.

Also, fuzzylogician, I can empathize, but I've found that expecting slackers to be grateful or appreciative is a stretch. In most cases, I've found that they have the following attitude -- "why the heck are these people doing so much work, when obviously there are ways to get away with not doing a whole lot?" Maybe it's a crappy attitude (ok, it absolutely is), but I can also appreciate that it's rational from their perspective.

mandarin orange, you're right. Graduation/turnover could really help here!

In my program almost everyone wants to get position in leading research universities to I think the attitude to service might be different than in yours. But I agree, not everyone will appreciate others' efforts and if they never do the same, some will not even understand how much work is involved. For some things I do for others (this is more in research-team mode, not strictly speaking in helping out the department as a whole), I know my teammates appreciate my efforts, because they tell me so. I don't care whether they are just being polite or actually mean it. I also know my professors see my efforts and appreciate them, and at the end of the day that's what's going to matter when I apply for jobs.

[TropicalCharlie]

Supergradgirl - I get where you are coming from. When you are on the receiving end of these nasty, resentful episodes, how do you respond? Have you asked these people why they are directing these issues at you? Frustrated people find ways to lash out, and maybe so, because no one has ever asked them why. Sometimes all it takes is to ask where they are coming from, and their answer may surprise you. Put yourself in their shoes, and you might learn something new about them and/or yourself.

[starmaker]

Really, your outside life should be the most helpful resource that you have in dealing with this, since you don't depend on the program for a social life.

If your professors are pleased with your progress, the resentful people can take a hike. To answer your question, I haven't personally experienced this, but I know a couple of people who have. I have a friend whose fellow grad students resented and sniped about him because he was heavily involved in amateur theater productions - he did plenty of service work, but they were resentful that he wasn't spending all day every day in the lab. I think he dealt pretty much by ignoring them.

[supergradgirl]

Supergradgirl - I get where you are coming from. When you are on the receiving end of these nasty, resentful episodes, how do you respond? Have you asked these people why they are directing these issues at you? Frustrated people find ways to lash out, and maybe so, because no one has ever asked them why. Sometimes all it takes is to ask where they are coming from, and their answer may surprise you. Put yourself in their shoes, and you might learn something new about them and/or yourself.

I generally just try to let it roll off without bothering to respond or cracking a joke to try to lighten the tension. For whatever reason, it's been bothering me more lately than it ever has, so I'm taking appropriate steps. Volunteering, hanging out with (actual) friends, exercise regimen, seeing a counselor to vent and figure out how not to let stuff get to me so much, etc. In other words, I'm worrying more about my own life and less about their crap. I guess the initial change was a shock to the system.

I think I will take you all up on your advice to avoid the lab as much as possible and ignore them when I can't avoid them. One of my colleagues ditched out entirely on the office for his last year in the program and worked outside or in the campus student center -- he just couldn't take the crap anymore, and I'm starting to think his strategy was brilliant!

Thanks for the empathy and the vote of confidence that perhaps I'm not totally off my rocker here.