Advice for deciding between PoliSci and another discipline?

[grecoroman]

I'm not sure if anyone else shares this dilemma, but I have academic interests that are cross-disciplinary in nature and thus applied to three different departments: Political Science (theory), Inter-disciplinary programs, and English.

So far, I've been accepted to University of Minnesota's PhD in Comparative Studies in Discourse and Society (CSDS), and into Northwestern for Political Science. They are both great programs, but I'm having trouble weighing my options! As you can imagine, choosing one over the other will certainly chart my academic career in very different ways. Here's how I see it so far:

CSDS at Minnesota: Tiny and selective program, really nurturing intellectual environment, close attention from faculty, I'll get to do whatever I want and choose how to design my course of study. Lots of independence. Full funding for 5 years, but a small stipend, and possibly no financial support for summer research. It's also a lesser known program, and interdisciplinary programs are notorious for not always being able to find jobs for their graduates in mainstream college departments.

Northwestern Poli Sci: Obviously, a top 25 program with some big names in critical theory. Encourages inter-disciplinary work, and should be a good place to move between political theory and english/cultural studies/history, but ultimately I am not a traditional political scientist and will perhaps fit better into a place where students and faculties' interests are more wide-ranging and cross-disciplinary. Great funding package (much more money than Minnesota), and graduates have usually found great placements across the country and internationally.

Overall, I think my gut and my heart are pulling me towards CSDS at Minnesota, but good sense is probably telling me that Political Science at Northwestern is the safer, more recognized, and not necessarily less intellectually fulfilling route to take. I might be taking too much of a risk with a program like CSDS.

Any thoughts? Anyone having to make a similar decision?

[flyingwalrus]

Northwestern doesn't require its theorists to take quantitative methods classes.

[flatcoat]

That's a tough one. I, too, have applied to several polisci programs and one interdisciplinary program. My first choice is a polisci program that offers interdisciplinary opportunities. Like you, I am not a "traditional" political scientist - but I figure universities are moving towards greater interdisciplinarity and I can help that process along. However, I also have no problems with the idea of being somewhat constrained by the methodology of a discipline. On the contrary, I'm counting on my grounding in a discipline to give my research a "home."

The Minnesota program sounds great, but chances are you will have a very, very difficult time finding placement after, especially since it seems to be strongly humanities-based (is this correct?). Even humanities PhDs in disciplines are statistically unlikely to get an academic job after finishing. As an interdisciplinary humanities PhD, your chances will be even less. Sure, it might be more "you," but that's purely a guess on your part thus far. Personally, I'd do the Northwestern program. More money, better chance at getting a job in or out of academia. Once you've finished and have a professor position, you can create an interdisciplinary program...that's the better side to be on, when it comes to that kind of thing. But that's just one opinion.

[jackassjim]

Depends what kind of department you hope will hire you when you graduate. If you get your PhD from a polisci dept, but you publish things that are usually the stuff of English, you might end up being unemployable. While interdisciplinary studies are indeed fashionable these days, we're just not where we need to be yet. Academia is still a very structured business.

[cjh19]

As an interdisciplinary humanities PhD, your chances will be even less. Sure, it might be more "you," but that's purely a guess on your part thus far. Personally, I'd do the Northwestern program.

I agree with flatcoat, although I understand the pull of the Minnesota program for you. But a PhD program is such an enormous opportunity cost in terms of time and resources spent pursuing it. Being a rather risk-averse person, I recommend going with the program that gives you a better shot at a career, after you've put all those years and all that energy into getting the degree. The reason that people generally pursue doctorates is because they want to do the kind of work that the PhD opens up to them that a masters wouldn't--usually a tenured professorship. If you're going to choose a program that gives you a narrow shot at that career, there need to be pretty compelling reasons to back it up. You might have a great five years in the CSDS program, but there's a long road ahead after that.

Are you able to visit both programs? That might help you make the choice / put it off until you have a more solid feel for each program.

[swr22]

I know that it is not exactly the same thing, but are there profs at NW in other departments who you could also collaborate with?

[FuzzyDunlop]

Listen to flatcoat.

Just by committing to a PhD program in political theory or critical theory, you are walking down a perilous road in terms of future employment and earnings. Interdisciplinary departments, especially ones that are not widely known, are notoriously bad at placement. Only go to Minnesota if you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say that afterward you really wouldn't mind either being a long-term adjunct/VAP, a TT with a 4/4 load in bumfuck nowhere, or leaving academia and doing something else. Because those scenarios are very likely. Seriously, don't just put your head in the sand and tell yourself that things will work out in some other way, because they probably won't. If you wouldn't be happy in those situations, go to Northwestern (or law school!).

[plisar]

Listen to flatcoat.

Just by committing to a PhD program in political theory or critical theory, you are walking down a perilous road in terms of future employment and earnings. Interdisciplinary departments, especially ones that are not widely known, are notoriously bad at placement. Only go to Minnesota if you can look yourself in the mirror and honestly say that afterward you really wouldn't mind either being a long-term adjunct/VAP, a TT with a 4/4 load in bumfuck nowhere, or leaving academia and doing something else. Because those scenarios are very likely. Seriously, don't just put your head in the sand and tell yourself that things will work out in some other way, because they probably won't. If you wouldn't be happy in those situations, go to Northwestern (or law school!).

I would second this advice. Political theory is a great field and I find the work produced by theorists to be insightful,interesting, and extremely well-crafted (in fact, I once wanted to be a theorist before I moved into comparative work), but it is a LONG-HARD road and you will need to hit the ground running. Get into the best program possible and work with the BEST theorists. Work hard and get published and then apply EVERYWHERE when you get to the market stage.

Lines in political theory are hard to find and they aren't getting additional funding. Think of this sector of our field more like an english or a philosophy department rather than a social science department. You have to be the best to get hired, and even then, you need to be lucky.

I'm not saying don't do it, but do it fully educated.

Plisar

[gradster]

Not to discourage you, but I am with the posts above. Being a graduate student I have seen first hand the hardships that theorists endure. It is incredibly hard and competitive, you need multiple publications to even get interviews and if you are lucky you will get a job that is very very far from your dream job. And that is the people that worked with the top people in theory, that networked,and are at top 10 departments. It often takes people 3-5 years to get a tenure track job after grad school.

That being said, the humanities and interdisciplinary programs are not much different, and possibly worse. Interdisciplinary departments will put you at a huge disadvantage when you hit the job market, especially if your work ends up being that way and you can't convince any non-interdisciplinary department that you belong there. It might also be a shock to you even if you do get a job in a regular discipline and you will feel out of place.

That being said, you should visit both places and get a feel for the departments and then decide. Also talk to the graduate students there, and ask lots of questions. It is also very important to be in a place that is collegial and supportive. I've heard horror stories of places where the students back-stab each other,etc. Graduate school is hard enough, I can't imagine having to deal with competitive people on top of that or an environment that is not nourishing.

Knowing you are headed up a steep hill is an advantage for you at this stage. As someone else said, don't bury your head and pretend this won't the case when you come out on the job market. You need to be the best from the get go, work very hard, network a ton, present at conferences every chance you get, be aggressive and reach out to faculty in other departments, and above all work hard, even when you see other grads slacking. Good luck!

[UndraftedFreeAgent]

I entirely agree with the sentiment that Political Science is the better option, but you may want to consider the fact that you are obtaining a biased sample. You may wish to solicit advice from applicants and current students who have a humanities focus (note that I haven't checked the other forums to see if you already did this).

A point that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that you're likely to find that interdisciplinary programs will hire political science faculty, but political science departments are less likely to hire interdisciplinary phds. There is a trend in political science toward methods, formal/game theory, and other heavily quantitative work. This requires training that is usually only found in economics, political science, and some psych and sociology programs. While I personally think that demand side problems have led to a socially suboptimal supply of theorists, it doesn't change the fact that theory and qualitative jobs will be hard to come by and thus incredibly competitive. You may have more luck if your goal is a teaching job rather than a TT research track, but I'm willing to bet that most people on this forum hope to "play the game" in research.

Best of luck.

[oscarwildebeest]

Have you looked at the Interdisciplinary Cluster initiative at Northwestern? That's one of the most appealing aspects of their program for me. One of the "clusters" is in Critical Theory, and you'd be able to work outside the Poli Sci department by pursuing that option.

Based on that, and the points above, I think you should only pick Minnesota if there are some faculty affiliated with the CSDS program who you know you would like to work with. Being able to design your own course of study is quite an attractive option, but if you end up working on a dissertation that is too difficult to find advisors for, the quality will surely suffer.

[AllFiredUp]

I can't believe you didn't apply to the Committee on Social Thought at Chicago. They interface quite a bit between the disciplines you sketch.

[grecoroman]

Thank you all for all your considered and thoughtful advice. I'll be visiting both programs in the next few weeks, and that should reveal a lot about the nature of the programs, the environment, my peers, the advisors I'd study under, etc.

Have you looked at the Interdisciplinary Cluster initiative at Northwestern? That's one of the most appealing aspects of their program for me. One of the "clusters" is in Critical Theory, and you'd be able to work outside the Poli Sci department by pursuing that option.

Based on that, and the points above, I think you should only pick Minnesota if there are some faculty affiliated with the CSDS program who you know you would like to work with. Being able to design your own course of study is quite an attractive option, but if you end up working on a dissertation that is too difficult to find advisors for, the quality will surely suffer.

Both places have advisors who would be good fits for my interests, though I am sure my dissertation will take on very different forms depending on whether I write it with a political theorist, and a cultural studies theorist.

And yes! I am familiar with the Interdisciplinary Cluster - it's what attracted me there too - and is the thing that makes this decision even harder. The only difference is that there are more professors at Minnesota across disciplines whose work would inform mine, while the Cluster at Northwestern gives me access to an albeit great pool, but nevertheless smaller number of professors in my field (postcolonial studies).

I entirely agree with the sentiment that Political Science is the better option, but you may want to consider the fact that you are obtaining a biased sample. You may wish to solicit advice from applicants and current students who have a humanities focus (note that I haven't checked the other forums to see if you already did this).

Good point - I haven't asked humanities folks, but as you point out, I certainly should. Thanks!

I can't believe you didn't apply to the Committee on Social Thought at Chicago. They interface quite a bit between the disciplines you sketch.

I considered it, but there weren't faculty there whose interests were aligned with my own.

[rising_star]

Northwestern probably offers more money due to the higher cost of living...

[swr22]

Get the Northwestern degree and the use it to teach in Minnesota!

[chicagocat]

I'm dealing with this issue too -- my frontrunners are Columbia Political Science and Harvard's Public Policy Phd.... I'm definitely a political scientist, I do European politics. My initial thought was Columbia, but everyone keeps saying go to Harvard! Worried that the Pub Pol degree would put me on a different track than my fellow political scientists, although in past years Pub Pol Phds from Harvard have been successful on the Political Science job market.... anyone have any thoughts?

[procrastinatrice]

I don't know about Harvard, but I heard that many Columbia political science students are far from thinking that they made the right choice. Most complain that profs don't give them the time of day...

[MDLee]

I have heard that inter-disciplinary studies are the wave of the future...and that if you can get into them that there will be massive need here in the next ten years as universities are trying to become more open.

But that's just the word down here in the desert...

[yaeli]

I don't know about Harvard, but I heard that many Columbia political science students are far from thinking that they made the right choice. Most complain that profs don't give them the time of day...

procrastinatrice,

I hope you don't mind me asking: could you please elaborate about what you've heard regarding Columbia? And is this related to a specific field? I got accepted there and to another place...

I'm in theory, though must admit was rather discouraged due to what I've just read here .

So, any thoughts regarding Columbia in general? Theory specifically? Anything would be highly appreciated

Thanks!

[convex]

I have heard that inter-disciplinary studies are the wave of the future...and that if you can get into them that there will be massive need here in the next ten years as universities are trying to become more open.

But that's just the word down here in the desert...

It depends what you mean by interdisciplinary studies, honestly. Many faculty members are very critical of most interdisciplinary programs. For example, I would be cautious about taking the path the OP is talking about, or one of the topical programs like "sustainable development" at SIPA, or any kind of political science/philosophy hybrid.

The successful interdiscplinary programs for political science are those related to economics, psychology, or math/stat. Examples of this include Caltech, Stanford GSB's political economy program, Harvard KSG political economy and government, Northwestern MEDS, etc. I also suspect that graduates of Carnegie Mellon's machine learning and public policy joint program (http://www.ml.cmu.edu/prospective_stude ... z_phd.html) will do very well in political science or economics if they even care to do so.

The reason for this is that there has been increased collaboration between these fields and political science, which is not the case for philosophy, literature, or whatever.

[procrastinatrice]

procrastinatrice,

I hope you don't mind me asking: could you please elaborate about what you've heard regarding Columbia? And is this related to a specific field? I got accepted there and to another place...

I'm in theory, though must admit was rather discouraged due to what I've just read here .

So, any thoughts regarding Columbia in general? Theory specifically? Anything would be highly appreciated

Thanks!

I just sent a PM to you:)

[chicagocat]

Wait, can you elaborate on the board or no? I'm interested in the answer too, Columbia sounds good on paper but I have no clue what the real story is!

[procrastinatrice]

OK, I should not have spoken like the harbinger of doom that I am.

All I know is that two of my undergrad advisors both went there (one was in Poli Sci and one in English) and had bad experiences and argued that there was not much emotional support/mentorship available for grad students at Columbia. They thought that most people felt this way but this is their opinion, and who knows, perhaps most people are quite happy there. It is just that they really advised me against applying (and I did, to MEALAC though, but that is supposedly an even more confused program). I would ask current grad students how they like it there. They will have more reliable information, for sure. Congrats on your acceptances!

[procrastinatrice]

Grecoroman, have you made your decision yet? I recently accepted NU's offer, I am in IR, but not in mainstream IR-- I hope to do work in critical, and especially postcolonial, IR, so there might actually be a certain amount of overlap in the people we can work with. I thought Northwestern was my best fit, but I applied to some interdisciplinary programs, like MEALAC at Columbia. Shoot me a PM if you want to talk about it.