Program Fit vs. Reputation

[hermia11]

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, and if it has, just yell at me and I'll shut up. But - does fit matter more than reputation in a PhD program?

I ask because now that I have more than one offer (so bizarre to even write that, and truly I'm so grateful to be in anywhere), I'm frantic and thinking I went about this process all wrong. My current acceptances are state schools, no Ivies, and none that would even crack the top 50 "best" programs (granted, I'm still waiting on some that are well regarded, but please bear with me and my current freakout).

I'm worried about reptuation because we all know the job market post-graduation is murky at best - and it's a market in which a degree from a reputable school may trump one from a lesser-known program. But the other side of this reputation coin is - if I go to a less prestigious yet better fitting program, would whatever I do there end up benefitting me more? (i.e. less brutally competitive atmosphere, more advisor attention, better recs after working more closely with professors, teaching support, etc.) Or should I think about reapplying to more competitive programs next year?

Anyone in the same boat? Any widsom? Am I overanalyzing this?

[WendyMoira]

I second this question. I fact, I was just posting about it in a similar thread. I'm looking at an offer from a top-20 school and a wait-list from a #35--but the #35, as far as I am concerned, is a perfect fit. Do I dare?

[steeloatmeal]

Is it #35 for your field, the US, or World? If it's #35 in the world then I think it's doing quite well. I don't think there is too much difference between #20 and #35 ..especially because schools can change up/down by about 4 spots per year and up to 15-spots dependent on ranking system. One of the school's I applied to is #10 in the program, #20-something in the world but much lower in some other ranking systems.

[ecritdansleau]

You may also want to pay attention not only to if the placement rate is good, but at what type of institutions (R1s? teaching-centered colleges? etc, etc) PhDs are being hired. Then you ask yourself from there if it sits right with your own plans. And with the question of applying again, ask yourself: do you feel you gave the applications this year your best shot, or that you applied to all of the schools you realistically wanted to attend? If the answer is yes, then why not take an offer? If you feel uneasy about accepting such a huge commitment though, I wouldn't advise "settling" if it feels that way to you. If, for instance, you envision building a research oriented career and the placement rate doesn't look encouraging for that path, then your feeling of unease is well-motivated. If it's a matter of you feeling like a program is perfect for *you* but you're more worried about its prestige-level, then I definitely would say fit and faculty are absolutely more important. Ultimately you will know what's best for you.

[hermia11]

Thanks, all, for this logical advice. I'll certainly be looking into placement rates and types of placements, and hopefully that will assuage my sudden panic. I did think I put out decent apps this year, and when I was applying I thought the schools I chose were good fits for what I wanted. Just somehow, between December and now, I got cold feet about this final decision process. I think this is largely me coming to terms with the fact that the school I feel best about fitting into is actually one of the lower-ranking ones out there.

Ultimately you will know what's best for you.

Thanks for this especially.

[Stately Plump]

Another thing to consider: you have a lot of control over what you do while in graduate school. Did you get a paper published in a reputable journal? Did you get a few papers published? Did you present at some big conferences? Does your dissertation look like it will turn very easily into a book? Schools are very curious about these things when looking to hire potential faculty members.

I spoke with a professor the other day who was on a faculty search committee. She said that of all the people who applied for the job, only about 10% had a publication in a decent journal, which obviously sets them apart from all the other applicants. This professor was also saying that they often look for candidates who have a book just about ready to go after their dissertation; if the dissertation looks like it could turn into several books, even better. This means that shortly after the faculty member is hired, she will have a book coming out, which obviously looks very good for the department.

The other thing is extra-curricular activities. Is there some drama/performance group you can participate in? Is there a journal you can work as an assistant for? Is there a side project (a translation, perhaps?) you can work on while in grad school? Just like when we were applying to get into grad school, there is a lot we can do on the other end to set ourselves apart from the other applicants.

[Doctor Cleveland]

I second this question. I fact, I was just posting about it in a similar thread. I'm looking at an offer from a top-20 school and a wait-list from a #35--but the #35, as far as I am concerned, is a perfect fit. Do I dare?

I think the place that didn't wait-list you might end up giving you more love. There's fit on paper, and then there's how much a program decides to invest in you as a student.

Lots of people get in off wait-lists and have brilliant careers. But if a higher-ranked program took you outright and a lower-ranked program is still making up its mind, I'd say to go where the love is.

[Jbarks]

I second this question. I fact, I was just posting about it in a similar thread. I'm looking at an offer from a top-20 school and a wait-list from a #35--but the #35, as far as I am concerned, is a perfect fit. Do I dare?

I think if you get off the wait list school you should go with the school that feels right in your gut. Where do you see yourself as being the happiest, most productive, and successful student? It could be at the top 20 or the #35. I also feel that rankings are super arbitrary. It really matters what you do as a student-- how much you publish, your teaching experience, conferences, extracurriculars, etc.

[greekdaph]

Seconding all those who say that fit matters more: on the job market, who your advisors are can be just as important as what program you come from, and a good fit means you're working with people who are recognized in the subfield in which you're looking to be hired. Another way to think of all of this is the question, "Where will I do my best work?" What program will provide the environment--strong advisors, fellow students who help you improve your work, time and space needed to research and write--most conducive to you placing that article in a good journal and writing that awesome dissertation? Sometimes, the programs that look the best on paper won't have the atmosphere *you* need to produce *your* strongest work. Good luck!

[picnic_lightning]

Thank you for starting this thread. This exact predicament has been my struggle, too.

I only have one PhD offer (I have a funded master's offer too, but without a stipend), and it is at a school that is ranked about 50 in US News for general English. However, it is in the top 20 for my subspecialty, Visual Culture. It is a small program, with tiny cohorts. I went to a top ten small liberal arts college for undergrad, so the size of the PhD program is enticing. However, I am nervous that I am settling for the school since it is the only offer I got (it's a good one-guaranteed tutition remission and a 17K stipend for 5 years, only teaching years 2-4) because I don't have other options.

One of the professors at the school actually told me I could transfer into a different program after two years (CRAZY, I couldn't believe he said that to me), while my advisors from undergrad are telling me to take it and run.

I am so nervous that I will take this offer and not be able to get a job after. I have done the placement searches, I know where these graduates end up. Frankly, it seems like a bit of a crapshoot to me (though people with my concentration do better than the general population coming out of there!).

I guess I just wanted to see if there were any thoughts about this... or if the answer really is just to publish and present a lot while I am in the program and ultimately the name on my degree won't matter.

Thank you in advance for any advice you might be able to offer!

[Homeless]

pinic_lightning, I'm in a similar situation, only one PhD offer (actually, I've only got one offer, and I'm on the waiting list for a master's program...in another field), from a top 50, but not top 20 school, and am dealing with similar worries. Leaving aside the statistical atrocity that is the U.S. News Rankings (and hoo boy, don't get me started) one thing I would say is that, as far as I can tell is that the school's reputation is only as important as who you're working with, who's writing your letters of recommendation and will vouch for you on the job market. Of course the two are seriously related (that's why the PGR has been so successful in philosophy, in my opinion anyway) but as long as your self-esteem doesn't depend on the ability to immediately get a TT position at an Ivy (or Ivy-like) school, being in the top 50 is already pretty good. And the thing about a terrible job market is that everyone is feeling it.

All that being said, I spent about a month or so thinking about all the ways I would fix up my application to do better next time, to the point that I didn't actually know how to feel when I was actually admitted somewhere. It sounds crazy (because it is) but that desire to do better is part of what makes me a good academic--and my ability to procrastinate is what made me a bad applicant, but I digress--and I'm beginning to see why my professors think it would be a mistake to pass up a good offer because, what? I want to impress people even more at dinner parties? I mean, I certainly feel the temptation, but I think my reasons are...not so good.

Maybe a calmer head (than mine) is needed.

[Stately Plump]

I'm beginning to see why my professors think it would be a mistake to pass up a good offer because, what? I want to impress people even more at dinner parties? I mean, I certainly feel the temptation, but I think my reasons are...not so good.

Maybe a calmer head (than mine) is needed.

Omg. This.

[hermia11]

Omg. This.

Exactly this. I started this thread when I was panicking about whether I ought to retry and aim higher. The job market is dire and I wanted to have every possible "leg up" I could get. But I just made my decision to go to a pretty low-ranking school with a small English PhD program. And you know what? I'm happy. Those who I've spoken to (both students and administrators/grad secretaries/faculty) are warm and friendly, and devoted to a program that fully supports my interests and my teaching, and which turns out reasonably successful grads.

I think the revelation came when I finally realized what my goal in this process is - I'm absolutely devoted to literary studies, but I'm not planning to get a PhD and become a superstar, teaching at R1 after R1, or frolicking among the Ivies. Maybe I have low standards, but I'll be absolutely content at a small, liberal arts college somewhere. Granted, this doesn't mean I'm not going to work like mad to get published and network the dickens out of conferences and faculty, because absolutely no position in this profession is guaranteed. But it all boils down to this for me - while a highly reputable school would be fantastic to attend and could lead to opportunities I that won't end up having in the future, for what I want, I don't need it. I'm content. And I hope everyone finds their own contentment, be it an R1 or the University of Nowheresville. Good luck, all!

[Stately Plump]

Exactly this. I started this thread when I was panicking about whether I ought to retry and aim higher. The job market is dire and I wanted to have every possible "leg up" I could get. But I just made my decision to go to a pretty low-ranking school with a small English PhD program. And you know what? I'm happy. Those who I've spoken to (both students and administrators/grad secretaries/faculty) are warm and friendly, and devoted to a program that fully supports my interests and my teaching, and which turns out reasonably successful grads.

Yea, I disguise my desire to go to a top top tier program with "I just want to be able to get a job when I graduate." But really, if I'm honest with myself, it's my ego

[Rupert Pupkin]

Yea, I disguise my desire to go to a top top tier program with "I just want to be able to get a job when I graduate." But really, if I'm honest with myself, it's my ego

Sadly, I feel some of this too. While I am truly excited about my top 25 destination, I still feel a little sore when I read people talking about some of my dream programs. I feel pretty guilty about it when I do, but I've always had this petty prestige envy. I think it stems from the fact that a lot of my cousins and family members left the southeast to go to really top-tier schools, while I stayed at my state university. I should just feel lucky that I got in anywhere and extremely gracious that I got into a school so highly ranked, yet I still feel envious when I see people discussing tip-top programs. I hate it.

[Two Espressos]

Sadly, I feel some of this too. While I am truly excited about my top 25 destination, I still feel a little sore when I read people talking about some of my dream programs. I feel pretty guilty about it when I do, but I've always had this petty prestige envy. I think it stems from the fact that a lot of my cousins and family members left the southeast to go to really top-tier schools, while I stayed at my state university. I should just feel lucky that I got in anywhere and extremely gracious that I got into a school so highly ranked, yet I still feel envious when I see people discussing tip-top programs. I hate it.

While I understand your position (and, if I'm fortunate enough to be in your place, would probably feel similarly), Urbana-Champaign is a great school, and you shouldn't feel envious of anyone!

[Timshel]

I'm sort of in a similar situation. I was accepted to a school that ranks in the 40s (USNWR) and wait listed at a school in the 50s, and I've been trying to decide what I would do if I get in off the wait list. The higher ranked school is more money, a desirable location, and nice, knowledgeable faculty/staff. However, the lower rank school is more "well-known" and has placed more people in TT university positions than the higher ranked one (recently, most of the graduates from the higher ranked school has been placing in community colleges). I really don't know what to do if I get in off the wait list......Ugh...

P.S. I should also mention they are both a pretty good fit but in different ways....

Edited March 25, 2012 by Timshel

[Rupert Pupkin]

Thanks Two Espressos. It really is a great program. I just thought I would add to the conversation and hopefully make other people realize that these types of thoughts are normal.

[Homeless]

I'm a little tired, so forgive the mistakes that follow.

I just wanted to say that we really shouldn't give that much weight to the US News Rankings. Their helpful in determining a department's reputation, but only a little bit. For one thing, they're based on four year old surveys, and for another only 31% of those sent surveys (they don't say how many, or at least I couldn't find it) actually responded--compare that to around 60% for the Philosophical Gourmet report. Now, this doesn't mean your school is actually better or worse than US News says it is (although I wouldn't be surprised, and I say this not know where most of you are going) but it does mean that they are at best taken with a good amount of salt. Plus the specialty rankings are just not that helpful (18th through 20th Century British Literature? That's a specialty? Just one?).

I should probably say more, but for now let me just say that I'm glad I'm not the only one whose ego gets in the way of accepting a great thing for what it is. (Don't forget, even at schools that are low on the list a lot more bright and hard-working students were rejected than let in.)

[Stately Plump]

I'm a little tired, so forgive the mistakes that follow.

I just wanted to say that we really shouldn't give that much weight to the US News Rankings. Their helpful in determining a department's reputation, but only a little bit. For one thing, they're based on four year old surveys, and for another only 31% of those sent surveys (they don't say how many, or at least I couldn't find it) actually responded--compare that to around 60% for the Philosophical Gourmet report. Now, this doesn't mean your school is actually better or worse than US News says it is (although I wouldn't be surprised, and I say this not know where most of you are going) but it does mean that they are at best taken with a good amount of salt. Plus the specialty rankings are just not that helpful (18th through 20th Century British Literature? That's a specialty? Just one?).

I should probably say more, but for now let me just say that I'm glad I'm not the only one whose ego gets in the way of accepting a great thing for what it is. (Don't forget, even at schools that are low on the list a lot more bright and hard-working students were rejected than let in.)

I agree that the rankings are not that important. I have serious doubts about the validity and the reliability of the research methods they use. Like you said, they can be helpful to a degree, but my ego makes them more important than they are.

I met a professor this weekend who got his PhD in Renaissance/early modern studies from Washington State University. He was hired about 3-4 years ago. He said that two Princeton PhDs applied for the same job he did, but he got it over them. He admitted openly that there was no reason he should have been hired over them, but, for whatever reason, that was how it happened.

So you never know