How important is a school's prestige?

[jules162]

I'm applying for MSW programs and giving a lot of thought to which school would be the best fit for me. How important is prestige/rankings? '

In my friend's (a current MSW student at Hunter) words "Columbia is really only worth going to if you want to do social work policy, like if you want to write and research and change policy with social work theory so to speak."

I always thought it would be insane to turn down admission to Columbia, since it's an ivy leage school and rated a top program, but since I am interested in doing clinical social work, in really developing those skills to counsel people, perhaps that's not the case.

Maybe it would be better to go with one of the other programs I applied to (Simmons or Fordham), perhaps they would have stronger clinical programs?

What do you guys think? Is Columbia worth it?

[Wishing]

I think prestige is only important s it relates to your ability to get what you need out of your education. As a macro student, that does mean giving schools like Columbia serious thought, because there aren't really many good alternatives at less expensive schools. For clinical students it seems the consensus is a little bit different, but I don't think that is cut and dry either. People on this board are obsessed with the "where you go to school doesn't matter" thing, which is smart frrom a debt perspective if it brings you to a less expensive school, but it's not the only thing that matters to me as I make my choice. I considered cost of the program, the strength of the program in the areas I wantd to study in, reputation in the region or city it's located in/I intend to practice in, quality of life for me and my family in the area the school is located in, and the cost of living.

For what it's worth, I did end up turning down Columia because the high cost of living in NYC combined with the high cost of the program itself (need-based aid wasn't really enough to offset this, even though I got their max award) and the fact that they separate out nonprofit admin from policy in their macro branches (I want to do a combo of both) made it not the right choice for me.

Good luck making your decision!

[blueled]

From what I know, if you just want to do clinical work, prestige isn't important. So if you want to go into the field and just work as a social worker, then any accredited MSW program will be fine.

Prestigious schools are important if you want to go into politics or if you plan to do a phD in the future. Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

More importantly though, don't go to a school where you have to shell out a lot of money, regardless of prestige. If you're paying 100k to get an MSW, that's just stupid considering how little MSWs make.

[MSW Bound]

I concur. I know many people that have attended state schools and are very successful. Social work is such an under-staffed environment, and social workers are needed.. So getting a job will not be as difficult. If you were going for a MBA, then the prestige of the school would matter 100%.

[SofieCat]

I think Wishing hit the nail on the head. Name does matter. Having UCLA or Columbia as opposed to Cal State something on your resume WILL catch the attention of a recruiter. It's unfortunate, but true. Esp with Macro work, I've been told by my volunteer supervisor (she has an MSW from UCLA) that when she first started out, she got job offers simply because of where she got her degree....even though she had a less than stellar review of UCLA's MSW program .

Now, to what extent does the name matter...that's the question. Obviously much less if you're heavily clinical-focused. I think the more you'll be "working for someone else" the more that prestige will probably play a role in your job offers. To me, it's about balancing your goals with how far you think prestige will take you.

I personally won't shell out more than 50k of my own money for an MSW even if it's from an Ivy league, because at the end of the day, there's a low cap on how much social workers make, even with a fancy name on their resume.

[briefinterviews]

I admit that a school's 'prestige' is a factor for me, and I definitely think the distinction between micro/macro students is something to be explored as well. I am a macro student with career goals that have my fingers in many a different pie, so I was pretty deliberate in the programs I applied to... which consequently sent me all over the map. Wishing has a point--macro tracks are practically nonexistent at many MSW programs, and macro students are already in an interesting position as we compete with graduates from many different fields for jobs. We already have to sell ourselves a bit more than our clinical counterparts, so if the name of our school can help get our foot into the door, well, why not.

Right now, I am 98% certain I'll be heading to Berkeley. While the benefits of paying in-state tuition are a huge plus (ultimately, I couldn't reason even going $60k in debt, let alone $100k), I feel like the program gives me the best option to continue working in California, and even out-of-state if I so choose. But I could be self-deluding, so someone please step in to play devil's advocate if you so please!

@Sofie Cat: I'm curious, what did your contact have to say about UCLA? I dug around the MSW program a bit, and I ended up having mixed feelings.

[SofieCat]

@Sofie Cat: I'm curious, what did your contact have to say about UCLA? I dug around the MSW program a bit, and I ended up having mixed feelings.

She said the program wasn't very challenging or comprehensive; she felt like they were given a lot of "busy work" that didn't teach her much. She got her degree about 5 years ago so maybe things have changed. I've also heard similar feedback from other UCLA MSW students. Recent students say that the program is going through an overhaul and is in a transitional stage now -- and with the budget cuts the classes are likely to get worse (they have less money to put into recruiting distinguished faculty). I've heard from people that UCLA's program is a bit of a joke when it comes to difficulty level.

[Lisbeth]

I really don't know how to express how I'm feeling after reading these types of discussions. I feel like everyone should pick a school that fits their personal interests as best as they can. Social work is soooooo broad that any one program will never teach you enough, and that's why as you work more and more your job prospects increase and doors will open more than any school will get you in a door. If you are creative and innovative and want to make things happen, you will do that, period. If you are determined and you have unique ideas that will benefit whatever you are trying to change, then you truly just need the basics. That means you need to know how to run a program or create one or administer one or it might mean you need to know about finances, or how to connect certain resources and who is best equipped to help you do that...etc. etc. But if you are that creative person and you learn your basics in a program that centers around your interests and goals, you will eventually find a way with that creativity to make your ideas a reality. I'm not sure why people sometimes have their head so far up their a** that they think that one name of a school will somehow make you change the whole world. If you change the world, in whatever small or large way you do, then it is not going to be because of the name of a school. It will be because of your efforts, your connections that you personally chose to pursue, the innovation that came out of your brain, and the books you chose to read and who around you helped you learn those things. All of the other universities have professors who went to both ivy league and public and other private/nonprofit schools. I do understand you might land a job because of a name on a paper, and I do understand when someone wants to work under a certain someone because of their ideas and that's fine. But what I'm speaking to is larger, in that generally speaking your future is based on how hard you will work and gain the experience you need to do whatever it is you want to do. Two years or four years is nothing compared to a lifetime of work and reading and networking and being whoever it is that you are. The only reason any of those ivy league schools are held to such high standards are because the people who attend them are determined and they get shit done. They study a lot, they focus on their goals and they do what it is that the school expects of them. So if you want to be like that, do it. Don't forget that we are studying social work, and that where your school is located could be even more important than the name of a school. Your fieldwork may be some of the most important experience and learning you'll do before starting a career in the field if you haven't already. The people, whether a community, a country or an individual are who you will be working for...whether directly or indirectly. In terms of money, I get it if you want to get the connection to get the hookups in jobs because ivy-leagues or other "great" universities can pull the popular people and therefore your connections will be better. As someone above already pointed out though, social work will on average never be really that high paying...yes some administration jobs get pretty high up there, but again are you going to a program so that you can make more money or because you think you can actually do some good for us all/others? If so (going into a program thinking it will make you more money), that's fine I do respect you, but I also think you are a piece of large problems in our world.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Lisbeth

[jules162]

So it seems like all you guys responding are macro students. Does anyone have any insight on Columbia vs Simmons as far as clinical strength?

[michigan girl]

I think a school's prestige/brand only matters in two cases: 1) you want to concentrate in macro practice and work in administration for big-name organizations such as the federal government or the United Nations; 2) you want a research career at the best social work programs. The well-known privates and state flagship programs tend to offer the best macro practice concentrations.

[jules162]

Let's say one day I decided to go into private practice. Would the school I went to matter then? Or would my ability to work independently really depend on the amount and quality of previous clinical experience? Thanks for all the insight so far.. these are hard decisions!

[briefinterviews]

I will preface by saying: This is more of an indirect response to Lisbeth's post. Very much a $0.02-type situation. I understand s/he was speaking to the larger issue of prestige and made plenty of concessions, which I appreciated; it just got me thinking a little

I don't think anyone was operating on the assumption that the name of one's school was some magical pass into the most competitive, high-paying jobs or making the biggest impact... but if you don't believe that it doesn't carry *some* weight, particularly if you are heading into research or the political arena, you are being naive. This is the society in which we operate. I also don't find the question of am I doing this to earn a higher income, or am I doing this to make a positive impact on people's lives mutually exclusive. I am doing this for both reasons, though at the core I believe this issue isn't so much about where the money is as where is the power is to affect the most widespread, systematic change. Where your degree is from is but one component, but it is an opportunity to consider in the grand scheme of things. Though ultimately, as Lisbeth pointed out, it is up to your own sense of integrity, agency, and determination to prevail; I see plenty of people with plenty of pretty credentials that are terrible at their jobs.

While I would love to live in a world where I would essentially be out of a job as a social worker and able to pursue my fantasy career, there is serious work to be done not just in our communities, but in the very systems which propose to serve them. If I have the opportunity to do just that, and reap the perceived benefits of a certain degree or a certain institution in serving that mission.. why not?

[Wishing]

Briefinterviews, I couldn't agree more. While I may wish that in a perfect world prestige would matter less and/or that prestigious educations were more readily accessible, the reality is that it does matter in our society. How much it matters depends very much on the field and one's personal goals, but even then there is no denying it has an impact, especially early in one's career.

Of course having integrity and working hard and developing a network are skills essentially to a promising career in any field. I would never dispute that, and as someone who feels I possess those qualities I can point to the ways they have already helped me outpace my peers since graduating from college. HOWEVER, and this is a huge caveat, I absolutely DO NOT think that peopl eget ahead in our society by working hard. In fact, implying that anyone can achieve their dreams if they just work hard enough borders on irresponsible given the type of social justice and equity concerns that we as social workers will need to be attentive to throughout our careers. Please let's not invoke the whole American Dream thing and equal opportunity for all. We can certainly challenge those structures, but considering that none of us will successfully break down those barriers for all of our society within our own lifetimes, I think it behooves us to make conscious choices and be responsible with the power we are given as a virtue of our positions of relative authority. If that means using a highly-ranked degree program to pull strings in the political world that is a choice to make. If that means attending a less well-known school and receiving a to-notch clinical education that is another choice to make. What annoys me about this board in general is that many posters repeatedly make claims about social work education that are highly contingent and dependent upon areas of focus or their own opinions and then use those claims and opinions to devalue the choices of others.

How about I make clear that I am in no way suggesting it is less desirable to go to a public or lower ranked program but also that I also do not (to quote) have my "head up my ***" in my choice to go to the program I identify as most closely meeting my own career and educational goals. Quite the judgey crowd.

[nrs2012]

When it comes to ivy league social work programs, I only ever hear people talk about Columbia. Does anyone know what kind of reputation UPenn has?

[Lisbeth]

Briefinterviews, I couldn't agree more. While I may wish that in a perfect world prestige would matter less and/or that prestigious educations were more readily accessible, the reality is that it does matter in our society. How much it matters depends very much on the field and one's personal goals, but even then there is no denying it has an impact, especially early in one's career. Of course having integrity and working hard and developing a network are skills essentially to a promising career in any field. I would never dispute that, and as someone who feels I possess those qualities I can point to the ways they have already helped me outpace my peers since graduating from college. HOWEVER, and this is a huge caveat, I absolutely DO NOT think that peopl eget ahead in our society by working hard. In fact, implying that anyone can achieve their dreams if they just work hard enough borders on irresponsible given the type of social justice and equity concerns that we as social workers will need to be attentive to throughout our careers. Please let's not invoke the whole American Dream thing and equal opportunity for all. We can certainly challenge those structures, but considering that none of us will successfully break down those barriers for all of our society within our own lifetimes, I think it behooves us to make conscious choices and be responsible with the power we are given as a virtue of our positions of relative authority. If that means using a highly-ranked degree program to pull strings in the political world that is a choice to make. If that means attending a less well-known school and receiving a to-notch clinical education that is another choice to make. What annoys me about this board in general is that many posters repeatedly make claims about social work education that are highly contingent and dependent upon areas of focus or their own opinions and then use those claims and opinions to devalue the choices of others. How about I make clear that I am in no way suggesting it is less desirable to go to a public or lower ranked program but also that I also do not (to quote) have my "head up my ***" in my choice to go to the program I identify as most closely meeting my own career and educational goals. Quite the judgey crowd.

Hey well just to clarify, I did not ever say that one would have their head up their *** if they go to a program that they identify as most closely meeting their own career and educational goals, in fact I actually said the opposite in my very first sentence. What I did say is that I've come across a lot of people who I really don't understand, that think that literally a name of a school will make the biggest difference in their life. I'm not saying ANY of you on this board have ever even hinted at that, but I was bringing it up because i live in LA and people who attend USC and people who apply to schools on the east coast, such as some of the ivy leagues literally have told me that they are going to attend these schools because they think the name is worth it. I just think there is a huge naive nature to those types of thought processes, and I did not mean to put my 2 cents directed at all of you or the two of you who, like me, have taken time and thought about these things and I appreciate it. I do agree that the whole american dream crap is also a horrible argument and I didn't mean to be hinting at that either. I really had a hard time coming to a conclusion that made sense but that wouldn't come off wrong or directed at others here lol, so I did my best! I honestly know that not everyone can do anything they want and there are large socio economic and ethinic, cultural, sexual orientation etc barriers for many groups of people still, and it is a HUGE reality that social workers need to understand in order to be able to do their jobs. I was speaking to those of us on this website about MSW programs though, so you must know that I'm speaking to people who have or will have obtained a college degree. I'm clearly speaking to people who will be getting a graduate degree and go on to get better paying jobs than the majority of BSW counterparts who do most of the social work jobs around us. But if I must go there, I do believe as it pertains to us who have degrees already, and who are fortunate to have families who care or friends and loved ones and have been afforded the monetary abilities to proceed with even further education and determination because of all of the reasons that each of us have been able to, that we can actually go on to do what we want to. I do believe that anyone on this website who has their college degree and is willing to gain the necessary experience in their field of interest can go on to get their PhD or do research or work for the government etc. if they want. I do not believe that you can if you don't have the right support though, or the housing and mental stability around you even if you have that degree. But that if you have already earned a college degree, then you've been able to accomplish that because of the support around you and you will most likely be able to do the same again going further...eventually with the right experience and same support. And it seems that most people on here have already applied and have the necessities that it takes to go on, so for those who I was speaking to, yes I believe they can do those things regardless of where they go to school. In fact I know they can because I can look at faculty at all of the schools and I can read research from people who have attended many different schools and I can see who works in the US government too! What I meant was simply that in the end of the day there have been a lot more people who have not gone to ivy league schools and who have not gone to "prestigious" schools who have gone on to do those things like work in the government agencies, do amazing research, teach at great programs etc. and that ever since I moved to LA and started hearing how people think about certain schools without knowing anything at all about the school itself other than what people around them say, it bugs me to think that I would be part of a culture that harvests one track only notions of how to be successful. I do appreciate that for some of you, you will go to these schools for real reasons because a program is great for you and you want to work with a specific person etc. And also because that name may get you that job that you wanted, which is a real thing and I recognize that this happens and we sometimes wish it wasn't the case but it is. I get that, I'm not blind to these things by any means. But why does everyone also seem to think that it's ok to just sit around and say "oh well it is this way, too bad". Wouldn't you want to be hired because of something other than a school name (this is not to any of you directly) I mean that it's been mentioned many times above that sometimes you need that school's name to get that gov. job or opportunity etc. so why not let it help you. OK I get that, we agree it happens, great. But why does everyone seem fine that it just "happens" why doesn't anyone on here see that you are just feeding into that idea and letting it continue to happen instead of being more open to realizing that plenty of others who attend state and other private universities land those jobs as well, and they do amazing community macro work and macro research etc. too, and that maybe it's time to prove that these things that just are a reality which we all sit here and say "while I may wish that in a more perfect world prestige would matter less" why don't some of you realize that you are not wishing that, because you are continuing that very fact. Really if you wish that really wasn't the case, then you might actually not go to one of these schools, and you might actually try to prove that it doesn't matter as much by doing the same research you otherwise would have, and working gaining the lower experience you need to get any job you have your sights on and wouldn't that be good for us all since you'd have more experience..not just a school that got you a job? Maybe that would be actually not playing by these so called rules of landing macro jobs. This topic is so broad and encompasses a lot more than just the idea of prestige, these schools make a lot of money and they give a lot of opportunities for research because of that, and that it is their Business model to attract certain people who will make them more money with that research etc. so this really is about money in the end of the day and the politics behind "ivy league" and prestigious schools, and what I really just wanted to get out there is that yes it is possible if you have all the support you do need and resources, to go to other schools and land the same jobs. The ivy league schools will tell you otherwise by hiring more of their own than others, but it is possilbe to complete the same research and it is possible to land great paying jobs while attending the other universities. That is it, that's really all I wanted to say. I also come from a family that includes people who've once thought the opposite, so I have the benefit of speaking to them too. I have a grandfather who is a professor emeritis at Caltech who studied all his college and PhD at MIT, and a grandmother who graduated from Wellesley as well as Brandeis, and both of them agree that in todays world, with so many great universities and colleges available that as long as you're able to go to college and you have the time/afforded the ability to spend the time to study, it's more about getting that degree you want first, and getting started, getting experience or studying than it is about where you go. But again, if a certain school that is prestigious is the best fit for you and they have more money for the research you do etc. or you don't care and actually love the fact that you might land a job some day because of you going there, then more more more power to you! Seriously no joke, I was just here to keep things real and say "there are also many other ways...". Afterall, I've already worked for the government doing research myself, and I went to a State school! Edited March 24, 2012 by Lisbeth

[magicflute]

I don't think prestige matters much, since the entry level salary doesn't depend on the prestige of the school you attend.

Work experience is more important in this profession.

[Lisbeth]

For those of you who haven't, you can check out the forum on here "A professor's insight: micro/macro, state vs ivy league- a long post"....it's something like what I said but from someone you might believe more and respect more because they've been there done that. Even if you disagree still after that, those of you who are on the fence with various schools or these ideas, would probably benefit from this posting a lot more than my rambles!

[mhatchMSW2014]

For those of you who haven't, you can check out the forum on here "A professor's insight: micro/macro, state vs ivy league- a long post"....it's something like what I said but from someone you might believe more and respect more because they've been there done that. Even if you disagree still after that, those of you who are on the fence with various schools or these ideas, would probably benefit from this posting a lot more than my rambles!

Can you provide a link to that professor's post? Search isn't turning up any results.

[Inspired V]

[Lisbeth]

Thanks!

[mhatchMSW2014]

Thanks for the link!

[malky]

Regardless of what school you attend you will obtain a degree. However, the school's prestige will place you at the 75% pile of graduates chosen by a particular employer at the time of hiring. Think of it this way: Employer x will hire 3 people from NYU, Columbia, Hunter and Brooklyn Tech -- academically the Brooklyn Tech has a 3.9 GPA much higher than the others... However NYU offers a much more competitive program, screening process and field placements than Brooklyn Tech!!! Therefore, the applicants from prestigious schools will be the first choice to be interviewed (not necessarily hired!) just remember that you are out to present yourself in the most competitive ways possible. If you can do it, perhaps others can do it better. Be disciplined and shine!!!

[treezie]

The variance in salary for social workers is not big enough to make prestige an important factor in getting your MsW. However, I cannot say that rankings do not matter in the absolute sense. Of course going to U of Chicago (currently #3 MsW program as rated by USNEWS & World) would give you better oppurtunities than going to a local state school for your MsW. However, the the difference in salary is only marginal..so thinking about school costs (and cost of living) should be a more important factor than school ranking imo. Additionally, social work is expected to rise faster than average over the next several years (according to the BLS) so you don't really have to worry too much about finding a job after graduation.

[michigan girl]

^ Sometimes, attending the local program is the better decision if the person plans to remain in the state/region after graduation.

Edited September 8, 2012 by michigan girl