LBJ School

[Burnt Orange]

For those folks considering the LBJ School at the University of Texas at Austin, please post comments, thoughts, questions, concerns, advice, etc., here.

Anyone attend today's open house and willing to share?

[texpat]

really, no one? i'm curious about this too.

[Burnt Orange]

Well, I'll prime the pump, as it were, and throw out some pros to the LBJ School. Please feel free to chime in with your own pros/cons/perceptions of the program.

1. Flexible curriculum that allows students to avoid generic courses in advanced economic/policy analysis and learn all of that same material in the context of individual areas of interest, e.g. Political Economy for National Security, International Trade & Finance etc.

2. Option to write a Professional Report (Thesis) for those interested.

3. All the resources of a major research university with top 20 programs in not just Public Affairs, but Business, Law, and Education, among others. LBJ is also home to some very exciting research centers with interesting faculty.

4. Small community (relatively speaking) within a large university with a vibrant culture and close-knit feeling

5. Minimal to no undergrads taking courses at LBJ. A current student told me only undergrads with advanced standing can register for LBJ courses

6. The University of Texas at Austin is one of the eight original Public Ivies with a very strong national brand name. UT grads are everywhere. That coupled with state/Longhorn pride will go along way in places like DC, LA, or NY, even among non-UT or LBJ grads.

7. Tons of activities, sports, lectures, events, clubs, and organizations available to add to the academic experience

8. I've only been a couple of times, but Austin is a great city that balances metropolitan and outdoor lifestyles

[Esquared]

LBJ was my first choice and I'm planning to attend in the fall. The Public Affairs program seems really solid overall - I get the feeling that I'll come away actually being able to apply learned skills to a career and that's what I want.

I like that they have quantitative prerequisites - makes me feel like the program's got a little more weight behind it (although I'm not sure why I feel that way - I think I might be a superficial person).

They have a bunch of specialization classes which is really nice. I've looked at the courses and a lot of them seem both interesting and useful. I want (actually need) a degree I can use in a job, but I don't want to be bored for two years either.

UT has a great national reputation, but an especially good rep in Texas. In my high school in Houston people didn't get why I went to the University of Chicago instead of UT (to be fair, neither do I at this point).

I don't know, it seems like a great program to be a part of. I'm looking forward to it.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Esquared

[wasistdas]

My Issues with LBJ:

1. Ability to work/intern during the program. Class times are all over the place, more akin to undergrad scheduling than a professional degree program. This is not only a opportunity loss income but also important experience.

2. Language development support. Not 100% sure of what support is offered to get language skills from good to great.

3. Support for the MGPS program. Most everything seems geared towards the more established MPAff, will the approach be as international as I want, especially when it comes to security studies.

[Burnt Orange]

@godlessgael, all vaild concerns. I'm in for MPAff and will do a lot of courses in Security Studies too. Given your interest in the field and concerns about funding and work, are you giving the Bush school a serious look now? They're pretty strong in Security Studies.

[JAubrey]

6. The University of Texas at Austin is one of the eight original Public Ivies with a very strong national brand name. UT grads are everywhere. That coupled with state/Longhorn pride will go along way in places like DC, LA, or NY, even among non-UT or LBJ grads.

Just an aside, does anyone else loathe the term "Public Ivies"?

Let's be honest here of the "original" public ivies there were, W&M, Miami of Ohio, UC, UMich, UNC, UT, UVa, and Vermont. While all are fairly good schools, though one could argue with Vermont, rightly or wrongly, only W&M, UMich, UNC, and UVa along with UCB and UCLA are nationally regarding as strong universities and really only UMich, UVa, and UCB have elite or near elite level grad programs. The idea that these schools are in anyway related to one another or as a group on par with the real Ivy League or even at an undergraduate level, the potted Ivies, is misleading to say the least.

My point is, if you intend on staying in Texas, than UT is a fine choice. If however you intend on working in DC or internationally then you are much better served in aiming for SFS, SIPA, HKS, WWS, and SAIS of course. But also GW, UVa, or even Fels (the latter if you are primarily interested in domestic / local policy). The alumni are better placed, their locations are better, and the universities have far more experience in placing their students and have more in-depth relationships with organizations and agencies.

[JAubrey]

My Issues with LBJ:

1. Ability to work/intern during the program. Class times are all over the place, more akin to undergrad scheduling than a professional degree program. This is not only a opportunity loss income but also important experience.

2. Language development support. Not 100% sure of what support is offered to get language skills from good to great.

3. Support for the MGPS program. Most everything seems geared towards the more established MPAff, will the approach be as international as I want, especially when it comes to security studies.

Godlessgael I would say do SAIS or GW (is this for security studies I assume?), if you are interested in security...though of course if you can get off the SSP waitlist that would be even better.

[Esquared]

Just an aside, does anyone else loathe the term "Public Ivies"?

I dislike it, but probably for different reasons. The Ivy League is an athletic conference, not a standard (though they are of course wonderful schools). I prefer to call good schools what they are...good schools.

And UT is a good school. Obviously USNews is far from the gospel, but you're talking about an institution with nearly all of its grad programs ranked #20 or higher.

Ivy Plus is also kind of a lame moniker.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Esquared

[wasistdas]

Godlessgael I would say do SAIS or GW (is this for security studies I assume?), if you are interested in security...though of course if you can get off the SSP waitlist that would be even better.

Both would have been great, but they weren't as interested in funding me, and I am very loan-averse, so the relationship just wasn't going to work.

I also think people seriously overplay the value of the name on your degree, so I am not at all worried about either UT-A or TAMU.

[JAubrey]

Both would have been great, but they weren't as interested in funding me, and I am very loan-averse, so the relationship just wasn't going to work.

I also think people seriously overplay the value of the name on your degree, so I am not at all worried about either UT-A or TAMU.

In the US security community, especially in DC, the name on your degree, as you phrased it, is actually quite important.

[Burnt Orange]

@JAubrey, thanks for bringing the thread to life a bit. Actually, I didn't realize UT was a "Public Ivy" until I did a little more research on the school. Like @Esquared called it, it's a good school and among the best Public Universities in America. No doubt Cal, Mich, UCLA, UVa, and the like are more renowned across the country. But as I walk around the campus today, I can't help but appreciate thevibrant atmosphere, nice facilities, and Longhorn pride. I think Austin would be a great place to call home for two years! And the bottom line is that not too many people would look down their nose at LBJers for having gone to Texas. Just my thoughts.

[lbjane]

I disagree with JAubrey. LBJ is a well-established, solid program with a wide alumni network in Texas, DC, and internationally. There are tons of LBJers in DC and a number of my classmates went on to work in IR and Security jobs in DC in government, think tanks, and NGOs. I am not really aware of any of my classmates struggling very much to find an interesting and fulfilling job after graduation.

LBJ is one of the older programs and has plenty of experience placing its students and in-depth relationships with policy employers. In addition to Texas-based employers, we had a lot of federal, NGO, and private sector employers recruiting at LBJ. UT is one of the largest universities in the country, is a well known school with highly ranked programs in a lot of subjects, and recruiters from all kinds of employers will be available to you.

So, as someone who actually went to LBJ, had no trouble finding a great government IR job after graduation, and managed to graduate debt free, I disagree with JAubrey's assessment of LBJ.

[JAubrey]

I disagree with JAubrey. LBJ is a well-established, solid program with a wide alumni network in Texas, DC, and internationally. There are tons of LBJers in DC and a number of my classmates went on to work in IR and Security jobs in DC in government, think tanks, and NGOs. I am not really aware of any of my classmates struggling very much to find an interesting and fulfilling job after graduation.

LBJ is one of the older programs and has plenty of experience placing its students and in-depth relationships with policy employers. In addition to Texas-based employers, we had a lot of federal, NGO, and private sector employers recruiting at LBJ. UT is one of the largest universities in the country, is a well known school with highly ranked programs in a lot of subjects, and recruiters from all kinds of employers will be available to you.

So, as someone who actually went to LBJ, had no trouble finding a great government IR job after graduation, and managed to graduate debt free, I disagree with JAubrey's assessment of LBJ.

I'm glad you were able to find a job. Again your evidence is anecdotal much the same as mine.

Working in DC for a number of years, I have yet to run into a single LBJ or even UT grad in the security and defense sector. Loads of SFS, Elliott (GW), SAIS, SIPA, HKS, and WWS. Outside of these usual suspects, I have come across a fair few with UG degrees from Yale, Princeton, Duke, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell, UVA, Stanford, Notre Dame, Cal, W&M, UCSD, Chicago, and UCLA (as well as from West Point and Annapolis), and even the odd American, UNC, Vandy, W&L, and Maryland grad, but again no LBJ or UT. Just my experience and 2 cents.

[texpat]

I can see how security studies might draw someone to the DC schools.

But what about something like education policy.. anyone have insight on LBJ? I'm interested in studying it from domestic and international perspectives. I know the Ed school at UT is tip-top, and LLILAS is also great (I have a Latin America background), so maybe that's a good sign, but if anyone knows about LBJ students going into the education sector I'd love to hear details.

[taquinas]

I largely agree with USMA06 points, especially on the dynamic cross-disciplinary options at UT. But I'll give half a nod (and half a rebuttal) to JAubrey as well.

A few interpretative points of my own:

1) Look at the faculty LBJ has been poaching. In both the growing MGPS program and the wide-ranging MPAff, they're getting top practitioners. And they're getting them to teach full-time. That's huge. You go to WWS or HKS (or SIPA for that matter), and you have a lot of academians who'd frankly rather be somewhere else. When you go to Austin, you go to teach. LBJ faculty publish and speak at conferences, yes, but they're not blowing off students to rush to a cable news studio.

2) Finances. Seriously, this is a factor. While HKS blanket-claims their endowment is poor, go fund your own damn education, and other programs (SFS, SIPA, Fletcher, etc.) will leave you massively indebted even with help, LBJ and other public programs give you a chance at financial freedom after graduation. Given the emotional burden that debt puts on graduates, this isn't an idle consideration. It also leads to my next point...

3) Actual Public Affaris Focus. Many grads of top programs go into the private sector, and JAubrey, it sounds like you've worked with many of them in Clearance World. This isn't always a good thing. Some feel forced into the private sector because of debt. At LBJ, there's a strong desire to form leaders and public servants. Somewhere about 8-10 years ago, they started pulling out of their TX-heavy, domestic issues focus, and LBJ is now a varied powerhouse in its own right.

So clearly I'm a big fan of the LBJ School, of both masters programs actually. But it's rational cheerleading. I will admit that JAubrey is right: LBJ grads don't saturate DC. But they're here. I've met them. There's more than a few, and UT's Archer Center is building momentum here as well. And I'll disagree on one statement: the name of your degree doesn't matter as much 5-7 years down the road. People care about what you've been up to lately. What you've accomplished.

People don't get hired at the WH because they went to SIPA or SAIS; they get hired because they ran a steering committee on the campaign, or because they were the Hill staffer riding point on a landmark issue, or because they proved themselves big time and someone owes them a favor. Love it or hate it, that's DC.

Hope this helps the applicants/admitteds out there...

[JAubrey]

I largely agree with USMA06 points, especially on the dynamic cross-disciplinary options at UT. But I'll give half a nod (and half a rebuttal) to JAubrey as well.

A few interpretative points of my own:

1) Look at the faculty LBJ has been poaching. In both the growing MGPS program and the wide-ranging MPAff, they're getting top practitioners. And they're getting them to teach full-time. That's huge. You go to WWS or HKS (or SIPA for that matter), and you have a lot of academians who'd frankly rather be somewhere else. When you go to Austin, you go to teach. LBJ faculty publish and speak at conferences, yes, but they're not blowing off students to rush to a cable news studio.

2) Finances. Seriously, this is a factor. While HKS blanket-claims their endowment is poor, go fund your own damn education, and other programs (SFS, SIPA, Fletcher, etc.) will leave you massively indebted even with help, LBJ and other public programs give you a chance at financial freedom after graduation. Given the emotional burden that debt puts on graduates, this isn't an idle consideration. It also leads to my next point...

3) Actual Public Affaris Focus. Many grads of top programs go into the private sector, and JAubrey, it sounds like you've worked with many of them in Clearance World. This isn't always a good thing. Some feel forced into the private sector because of debt. At LBJ, there's a strong desire to form leaders and public servants. Somewhere about 8-10 years ago, they started pulling out of their TX-heavy, domestic issues focus, and LBJ is now a varied powerhouse in its own right.

So clearly I'm a big fan of the LBJ School, of both masters programs actually. But it's rational cheerleading. I will admit that JAubrey is right: LBJ grads don't saturate DC. But they're here. I've met them. There's more than a few, and UT's Archer Center is building momentum here as well. And I'll disagree on one statement: the name of your degree doesn't matter as much 5-7 years down the road. People care about what you've been up to lately. What you've accomplished.

People don't get hired at the WH because they went to SIPA or SAIS; they get hired because they ran a steering committee on the campaign, or because they were the Hill staffer riding point on a landmark issue, or because they proved themselves big time and someone owes them a favor. Love it or hate it, that's DC.

Hope this helps the applicants/admitteds out there...

First I will say that I agree with taquinas on point #2 and your final paragraph. Overall a very cogent argument for LBJ. With that said, while people may not get hired on to mid-level posts at the WH due to their prior education (though education very much matters for interns and PMFs), they get in the positions that get them hired via their degrees. While having a SIPA, SAIS, SFS, HKS, WWS, etc. degree will not get you a position in the WH, it does get you into the jobs that the WH may draw from, more so than LBJ. This I don't think is arguable.

The one point I will expound upon which taquinas mentioned was cost. Personally I think it is utter bunk what schools like HKS and SIPA in particular do. Are these schools successful in placing graduates in the private sector and public? Absolutely. But they need to come off claiming they intend to develop people for service jobs / the public sector when people have $120k in loans coming out. Of the top / near-top programs only WWS, Elliott, and to a certain extent Fletcher, actually seem to provide significant merit based aid that enables their graduates to confidently take those 52k GG/GS 09 jobs straight out of graduate school.

In the end if you are serious about:

1) working internationally

2) getting into security and defense

3) getting into the more high profile / prestigious government departments

You will be better served by going to one of the elite (WWS, HKS, SFS, etc.) or near-elite (Fletcher, Elliott, Fels, etc.) than LBJ. These schools have far more name recognition, established pipelines, and stronger alumni networks than LBJ. Can you get in to some government jobs or have a good career coming out of LBJ? Without a doubt. And as taquinas mentioned, where you went to school matters less as time goes by say 5-7 years down the road (though I would posit from my experience it still does matter and for networking can still be quite important), however positioning yourself in that first role or two is crucial and it can be a much more difficult to do so coming out of LBJ versus the others I mentioned.

In regard to the aforementioned fiancial issues. I would say if you are a competitive candidate or have an aim to go into certain fields in government / policy, you should be able to get into an elite school or two and even if you don't have the money to attend or don't wish to take on the debt, then you should be able to get aid from a near-elite.

[texpat]

JAubrey, we get it. You don't like the fly-over states. Meanwhile, I'm probably turning down SIPA for LBJ...

[JAubrey]

JAubrey, we get it. You don't like the fly-over states. Meanwhile, I'm probably turning down SIPA for LBJ...

Never said that at all, but take it whatever way you like.

[lbjane]

My info is a bit more than anecdotal since I'm in touch with a lot of LBJ grads. I know recent grads working at as both civil service and foreign service at DOS, working at DOD, CIA, NASA, DIA, FERC, GAO, OMB, USAID, HHS, DOT, CBO, NSA, Brookings, CSIS, FCC, NRC, Deloitte, Gallup, Facebook, UNDP, the World Food Programme, National Defense University, National Governors Association, etc. So, take that as you want about the ability of LBJ grads to find work in DC and in international affairs.

[JAubrey]

My info is a bit more than anecdotal since I'm in touch with a lot of LBJ grads. I know recent grads working at as both civil service and foreign service at DOS, working at DOD, CIA, NASA, DIA, FERC, GAO, OMB, USAID, HHS, DOT, CBO, NSA, Brookings, CSIS, FCC, NRC, Deloitte, Gallup, Facebook, UNDP, the World Food Programme, National Defense University, National Governors Association, etc. So, take that as you want about the ability of LBJ grads to find work in DC and in international affairs.

Perhaps you want to look up the definition of anecdotal evidence.

Edited April 9, 2012 by JAubrey

[Esquared]

I think I'll hijack this thread to a happier place.

Where is the best place to live in Austin (preferably within walking distance to the campus)?

Anybody know anymore info about Camp LBJ?

[lbjane]

I apologize, I used the wrong word to describe my info. My point is that I know a bit more about what LBJ grads get up to after graduation since I'm in touch with a lot of them, especially those who graduated 3-5 years ago. Many LBJers have gone on to find work in DC and in international affairs, regardless of whether or not you have met them in your work.

Esquared, you might want to take a look at the Hyde Park and North Campus areas. Both are north of campus, have bus routes to campus, and are accessible by bicycle. Both are within walking distance, though Hyde Park might be a little too far to walk, depending on where exactly you decide to live and how far you're willing to walk.

Camp LBJ is fun and I recommend attending, if you're able to make it. It may have changed some, but it was a good way to get familiar with Austin, some of the professors, and meet some of your classmates before school started and everyone got stressed and busy with classes. That said, there are plenty of people who don't participate in Camp LBJ and things are still fluid enough at the beginning of the year that they don't feel left out or excluded because they didn't attend.

[taquinas]

I've been remiss in replying this past week, what with work, Easter, and baseball games. It's a tough life, I know.

JAubrey, I'm glad we agree on the scams of HKS and SIPA. But they're very high-quality scams, so it's tough to dismiss them outright. They each have a few shining faculty that I'd love to work with in the future. Hey, I'd love to do a PhD at Harvard too, but I'd want it funded.

Getting back on case, as we used to say...

I think there's legitimate room for discussion on how a degree effects your hirability. The overall question is: will people recognize this degree, and what's their five second reaction to it, either on a resume or during an elevator speech. I think LBJ has that name. Your circles are probably different than mine, but among Hill staff, most know of (or at least have heard of) LBJ; that's partially because it's named after a president, but partially because they've been a consistently reliable, strong program over the years. (I'm speaking of the MPAff, obviously.)

Now in the field of security, I do know some MGPS people who went on to great placements in DC. But it's still a growing program, so there's that. One thing I'm curious about is the idea of a "pipeline" - maybe that exists more in your subfield than mine, but I was always skeptical of this concept. The idea that there are certain offices preconditioned to hire SAIS or SIPA grads... I get the concept, but I've never seen that occur in our generation. Maybe our parents' generation.

Conversely, I've met SIPA grads who struggle to find placement. I've met SAIS students who work at World Bank, who feel trapped because they can't seem to find jobs outside of international finance. I've meet HKS grads who extol the program, but admit to me that it didn't help them get a job immedately after school. (The HKS argument is your classmates will be very high-level people in 10 years' time, and they'll remember you then.) I mean, this is all anecdotal.

But LBJ is a tremendous program, and Austin is a super city. That's just my imprimateur of confidence on this conversation.

[Burnt Orange]

I just love how much attention LBJ has been getting on the forum! Thanks everyone for you contributions.

My take on this is as follows - all of the MPA/MPP programs I applied to had either national security or international affairs concentrations in the curriculum. That was very important to me as I didn't want to cobble together a specialized concentration with limited resources. So I too am very interested in the field. And while I did consider SAIS, Elliott, and Gtown SSP, I ultimately want a degree that will enable me to pivot to domestic / local policy should my career take me down that route post military. After visiting each school I applied to, I felt that the core courses would give me some great exposure to domestic policy issues while allowing me to focus on defense, security, etc. So with LBJs common and flexible core, I really do feel like I am going to get everything I want out of a graduate education. But I do concede, I won't be in the job hunt immediately after graduation as Uncle Sam already has something lined up for me.

Like the folks who mention "Johns Hopkins SAIS" or "Havard Kennedy School" in their elevator pitches, I'll simply be saying "The LBJ School at UT-Austin." I'll be just as prepared, just as competent, and just fine. And so will you all!