LORs for "older" student switching disciplines...

[amlobo]

I've been out of undergrad for 6 years...where I was history/polisci. I have been out of law school for 3 years, so not really "fresh" out of any kind of school. I am planning to apply to Sociology phd programs (and maybe a few Social Policy). I have been brainstorming about who to use as my recommenders, based on the fact that I have no profs in the discipline to which I'm applying, and I am so far removed from the academic world. Hoping people can share their thoughts on my current "plan".

LOR 1 - my undergrad History advisor, who I took 3 classes with. He wrote one for me for law school, too.

LOR 2 - law school professor, who I took 2 classes with and worked with for 2 semesters. Got the top grade in both classes that I took with him. (kind of worried because he is not a phd, he's a jd, like me...)

LOR 3 - (this is the one I am wondering most about) I have a friend who is a tenured professor at an Ivy. She is an English phd and teaches in an interdisciplinary program. She is very accomplished. However, she is a peer and I know her socially, not academically. She never "taught" me and is not in any field related to my background or future discipline. BUT, she can write me an amazing LOR and has been instrumental in my decision to enter a phd program.

So.... Thoughts on using my "friend" as a recommender? Or thoughts in general?

[CageFree]

I say no to #3.

Do you have a recent employer? I'm a non-traditional student... finished undergrad in 2000, and a teaching credential in 2004. Since then I've been a high school teacher. Two of my letters came from undergrad advisers that I was very close to back then, and the third came from my principal.

[amlobo]

The law prof I mentioned as LOR 2 was my employer while in law school, and I am currently working for my only other employer I've had since law school (been here 3 years). I can't tell him that I am applying, and he would not be supportive of it.

[TakeruK]

Some schools explicitly mention that you cannot use "personal references", which is what #3 would be.

Depending on the program, a letter like #3 could be viewed negatively or just be ignored. It might be better to submit only 2 letters (if you can't find a third one) and try to explain why you don't have 3 LORs -- what you say above is pretty good. Then, you have to really make sure you prove to them that you are really interested in this PhD in your SOP. Basically, move the "ideas" (if that's the right word) that would be conveyed by letter #3 to your SOP, or Personal Statement, if the schools accepts one.

But if you can get something that isn't a personal reference for #3, that would be better! Is there any other supervisor you have at your current work? Any volunteer activities? Someone else from Law or undergrad?

[amlobo]

There is another law school prof who might do it. I took 3 classes with him and did some research for him. But, I did poorly in one of the 3 classes, so I am a little hesitant. Plus, I know part of the LORs is that they are supposed to assess your readiness for doctoral study. And, having 2 of my 3 LORs be from people without a PhD kind of worries me.

I also do have 2 profs from undergrad who taught my research seminars for my two majors. One was a visiting prof, so I don't know if he would remember me at all. The other was a TA at the time he taught me... though he is a professor now.

[Sigaba]

So.... Thoughts on using my "friend" as a recommender? Or thoughts in general?

MOO, you might do well to keep asking yourself--if not also others--these kinds of questions.

The rules of the road in the Ivory Tower might be drastically different from those you're used to navigating in the private sector.

[amlobo]

MOO, you might do well to keep asking yourself--if not also others--these kinds of questions.

The rules of the road in the Ivory Tower might be drastically different from those you're used to navigating in the private sector.

Thus, why I am here and inquiring. Do you have any specific bits of wisdom you could share?

[TheFez]

Hi amlobo,

Just a couple of questions not directly related to your question here, but which bear on the issue.

1) Why are you going into a sociology PhD after having been in law?

2) What other preparation for a sociology PhD do you have? Have you done any research or coursework in this area?

Just curious; as you will also face the "how do I write a good SOP" question. Is the lack of academic recommenders due to the "older student" problem or the "switching fields" problem? IMO the older student problem is not as difficult a hurdle as the switching fields issue.

[amlobo]

Hi amlobo,

Just a couple of questions not directly related to your question here, but which bear on the issue.

1) Why are you going into a sociology PhD after having been in law?

2) What other preparation for a sociology PhD do you have? Have you done any research or coursework in this area?

Just curious; as you will also face the "how do I write a good SOP" question. Is the lack of academic recommenders due to the "older student" problem or the "switching fields" problem? IMO the older student problem is not as difficult a hurdle as the switching fields issue.

1. Well, after a few years as an attorney, I found myself miserable and looking for a new career. I had these naive ideas (as do many law students) that practicing law was more intellectual and less repetitive than it actually is. I only enjoy my job in those rare moments when I have to *really* think. I have often lamented the fact that I chose to go to law school instead of grad school... but at the time I graduated college, I had an idea of what kinds of things I was interested in but had no idea how to turn those into a job. I took the "practical" route via law, but I think having a job I didn't like really made me sit down and assess my situation... and whether I could suffer through this occupation for the rest of my career. After a lot of thought, I eventually decided that I needed a more intellectually challenging and engaging profession, and I started looking at going back to school. I discussed my research interests with a few friends, and the consensus was that sociology fit those interests best (main interests relate to educational access/quality/achievement issues).

2. I have no coursework in sociology, really. Honestly, if I had known what sociology was when I was an undergrad, I would have done that instead of PoliSci. I was just clueless at 18, coming from a rural high school where I had never even heard the word "sociology". Though, I do have preparation in the subject area that interests me (education). Some of my PoliSci classes actually touched on sociological theory and issues. I took a public policy class, in which I wrote a paper on school choice. I interned for the Dept of Ed's Office of Innovation and Improvement in undergrad. And, I took Education Law in law school and wrote a paper on a certain policy's application re: rural vs. urban schools. I had my law journal article published, and it related tangentially to sociological issues... though perhaps more accurately categorized as public policy. Currently, I am independently "researching" Sociology, with the aid of some friends and people on the Sociology board here, just to get a baseline understanding of the jargon and research areas. I am also interested in some law-related issues in sociology, relating to the penal system, and I obviously have a background in that. Just FYI, I am also looking at dual-degree programs in Sociology and Social Policy.

The lack of academic recommenders is definitely due to the "older student" problem. In undergrad, I never made an effort to get to know many profs because I was not planning to pursue grad school. I only had one professor that I took more than one class with, and he is one of my recommenders. The profs I only had one class with... I can barely remember their names now, so I doubt they remember me at all. I would feel confident asking a few different law profs for recommendations, but, law profs don't go to grad school. So, they are really not in the best position to assess my readiness when they don't know exactly what a PhD program entails.

After posting on here, I looked at some of the schools I'm interested in, and they waive the faculty recommendation requirement for those 5+ years out of school and say you can substitute faculty recommendations. Substitutions may include "work associates or others who can comment on your academic potential for graduate work." This makes me a little less nervous about the LORs. But, I agree the SOP is more important in my situation for conveying why I'm switching fields. Though, that is something I feel I have more "control" over, if that makes sense.

[amlobo]

Ok, that was super long... but thought I might add that from what I have heard and read, it is common for applicants to sociology PhD programs to not be sociology majors. Many programs say they prefer that you have a social science background (which I have), but that a background in sociology is not required. So I am not as worried about "switching" disciplines as I might be if I was applying to, say, a Physics program.

[Sigaba]

Thus, why I am here and inquiring. Do you have any specific bits of wisdom you could share?

@amlobo--

You might find this book useful, especially if you download and read some of the documents referenced in the footnotes.