Job versus School?

[jogatoronto]

I've been lurking and posting on this forum for almost 2 years and I'm finally getting ready to submit PhD applications. I'd like to enroll in a PhD in African History starting in Fall 2013.

I completed my undergrad degree in Canada (UofT) in 2011 and this school year I've been working on a masters degree at the London School of Economics.

I've been offered a place in Columbia University's 1 year MA in History and Literature @ their European campus in Paris this fall. Funding is not an issue because I'm covered for 75% of my tuition and Housings costs. The Columbia MA program is also very small and unique, with a cohort of just 7 to 10 students and courses offered at Ecole Normale Superieure and EHESS.

I've also applied for jobs but I have not had any luck in that department yet.

Can someone who has taken time off to work between their masters and PhD offer some advice as to the pros and cons of that experience please?

I see the Columbia masters degree as an opportunity to strengthen my French language skills and to also gain experience with French archives, which I know would be assets for someone interested in West African history. However, I am wondering if there are benefits to working for a year that outweigh the French language and French archive opportunities.

Thanks for reading this! Good luck to everyone applying for PhD's in the coming cycle.

[jogatoronto]

I guess nobody works between their masters and phd. oh well.

[Sigaba]

@jogatoronto--

IRT the broader issue of taking time off from graduate student in order to work, as an undergraduate, I participated in a research program in which aspiring graduate students were mentored by graduate students, many of whom had not taken a direct route from college to graduate school. For our benefit, they debated the pros and the cons. Among the cons was the tendency for life to get in the way. That is, you say you're going to work just for one year. Then one year becomes two. Then you meet someone then it is four years later and you're raising a family.

A second issue was the different mindsets one needs for the private sector compared to the Ivory Tower. One graduate student in particular made it clear that he had a hard time downshifting from having a boss in the private sector who was results oriented and going back into an environment that tends to be process oriented.

Another issue can be discerned from many threads on this BB: people taking a break and losing touch with professors who can write meaningful LoRs. If you take off a year and manage that relationship well, this should not be a problem. But if one year becomes two....

IRT the Columbia option, bear in mind that even with a MA, a PhD program will basically say "So what?" and insist that you jump through some (if not all) of the hoops again. This happened to me--even though the department that awarded me a MA was more prestigious. In my case, I did not mind--the more training the better/your house your rules were my thoughts.

However, if you're at a stage in your life where additional hoop jumping--no matter how beneficial--doesn't float your boat, Columbia could be a step in the wrong direction for you.

HTH.

[jogatoronto]

@jogatoronto--

IRT the broader issue of taking time off from graduate student in order to work, as an undergraduate, I participated in a research program in which aspiring graduate students were mentored by graduate students, many of whom had not taken a direct route from college to graduate school. For our benefit, they debated the pros and the cons. Among the cons was the tendency for life to get in the way. That is, you say you're going to work just for one year. Then one year becomes two. Then you meet someone then it is four years later and you're raising a family.

A second issue was the different mindsets one needs for the private sector compared to the Ivory Tower. One graduate student in particular made it clear that he had a hard time downshifting from having a boss in the private sector who was results oriented and going back into an environment that tends to be process oriented.

Another issue can be discerned from many threads on this BB: people taking a break and losing touch with professors who can write meaningful LoRs. If you take off a year and manage that relationship well, this should not be a problem. But if one year becomes two....

IRT the Columbia option, bear in mind that even with a MA, a PhD program will basically say "So what?" and insist that you jump through some (if not all) of the hoops again. This happened to me--even though the department that awarded me a MA was more prestigious. In my case, I did not mind--the more training the better/your house your rules were my thoughts.

However, if you're at a stage in your life where additional hoop jumping--no matter how beneficial--doesn't float your boat, Columbia could be a step in the wrong direction for you.

HTH.

Thank you so much Sigaba and please forgive my late response

[CageFree]

I don't have an MA but I am going back for a PhD after several years. It was the right thing for me to do.

After I finished my BA I was burned out. I couldn't even pick up a book for pleasure. I was 23 and didn't know what I wanted to do in life... to me, grad school was a "logical next step," but looking back at it now with 12 years of perspective, I was a baby! Honestly, I don't think I would have made it through. I was too burned out to keep going, so went to the business world for a year to clear my head and figure things out.

I realized I was not cut out for corporate work within that year. I hated it. I became a teacher because teaching was one thing that had always been a constant in my life (most of my jobs involved tutoring or teaching in some capacity), and I was NOT ready for academia.

In the meantime, my interests evolved... I switched continents and time periods due to a combination of personal growth and exposure to new areas of knowledge (from teaching subjects outside of History, such as Poli Sci and Geography). Two years ago, I decided I was ready for grad school... at first I only considered MA programs, but then got a little encouragement to try for PhDs, and now it just feels right. I feel a strong connection to what I want to pursue... looking back, I was kind of going from one stage to the next, just clearing hurdles, like it was something else to check off from a list. I was a stronger candidate than I would have been at 23, and landed in a program that is a much better fit for me.

In terms of getting letters, I had no real problems. My professors still remembered me and wrote me amazing letters (at least, that's what I was told after I got in). I did better in the GRE than I would have done back then... I didn't spend months studying... I was just able to focus better. My writing sample was from undergrad but the years of teaching kids how to write made me a better writer, so I was able to go back and rework it.

I taught for eight years, total. And yes, life got in the way... I got married, divorced, and remarried (about three weeks ago). But you know what? I don't regret my path. It was right for me. I think of my experience as an asset. I have teaching and grading experience. I know how to develop a curriculum. I am used to dealing with students and being a bit older will give me a little "gravitas" when dealing with juniors and seniors. For most people it might have been "too much" time off, but for me, it was the right amount, and now I'm finally ready Having worked full-time for years has given me a different perspective and work ethic, too. My time-management is much better, I feel excited but I don't feel overwhelmed (even looking at the 30 books I have to read this fall for just two courses, in 10 weeks!), and I have a better support system in place. I even have former students I am still close to who attend the same school as undergrads, so I have built-in friends!

Now, my experience is not the same as everyone else's. I have no doubt that many people are ready to go straight from undergrad to grad. But I will say that if you're questioning your readiness, you might benefit from a little time off. Me? I am glad I waited.

Edited July 17, 2012 by CageFree

[Riotbeard]

I am not going to write a short dissertation on what you should do, but if it were me, I would go for the MA at Columbia, if money is truly not an issue. Go live it up in New York. For me, my time spent at a normal job after college, only proved to me how unfit i was for the real world and the dull life of office work. I think this was a good experience, as it helped me empathize with people who have real jobs, and give myself a sense of distance from graduate students who talk about how difficult their life is (making the library seem like a coal mine or even a cubicle). You will meet people like this, but they are everywhere (some of them are on this board). So unless you feel like you need a dose of reality, I would say keep riding the train called academia.

p.s. This isn't meant to say I don't work hard, etcetera, but a lot of grad students do not truly appreciate how weird and awesome the academic lifestyle is.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Riotbeard

[jogatoronto]

@CageFree your experience is reminds me of a canadian history prof I knew in Toronto. She also took time away from academia to teach history in high school and says it served her well. I'm not questioning my readiness...I'm just trying to decide whether to spend a year on a second masters degree or to get a research related job since I'm applying for PhD's for a fall 2013 start.

@Riotbeard A dose of reality would be interesting...but academia is also a fun train to ride...oh well...I'll decide later

[TMP]

Well, I did! But not by choice (long-time forumites know it). I simply did not receive offers for 2 cycles straight before landing a couple in my third try.

It was really difficult... there were VERY few jobs in the US for someone with a MA (and not much work experience) and zero teaching experience (not to mention that there's an abundance of people with social studies teaching certifications). First year out of the MA, I looked for jobs for 5 months and decided that there were just no jobs for me, so I went off to Germany to study German and live in Europe for a while. I loved it and it really did help me figure things out- what did I really want to study? What aspect of social history was I interested in? What topics in BOTH German and American news was I interested in? (Ethnicity, immigration, and national identity) It helped me to create a sharper SOP.

After I was rejected everywhere (well, nearly, had an unfunded offer and a waitlist) and came back from Germany, I searched for jobs again while working as a camp counselor (highly recommended!). In my last cycle of job search, I think I applied to like 10 jobs and landed at least 6-7 interviews. But I think every interviewer realized that though I'd do well, I simply wouldn't fit in and be 100% happy. What did I do? I landed an internship at my old workplace. It was the best professionalization experience that I could ever ask for. I was around colleagues who cared about scholarship and education in our field. They boosted my morale and helped me believe that I could do the process again and get back into academia. Some of them worked with me to teach me academic writing on my writing sample. Others taught me new skills. The internship paid next to nothing but I came out of it as much better prepared for the PhD rpogram that my new adviser hardly needs to teach me anything right now like publishing a journal article or how to create a syllabus.

If I had my way really, I would've gone straight to PhD from the MA because I KNEW what I wanted to do and had the energy to keep going (I had that fire in my belly).

So I kind of see these two years as a mixed and bittersweet blessing.

But you have a bird in hand and there are no jobs... TAKE IT.

[Cliopatronus]

I was in a very similar situation as you are now. In the end, I decided to take a year off between Masters and PhD. I have been working for the last year, and will now be starting a PhD this fall.

My main reason for taking a year off was that I wanted to work and pay off some student loans. That worked out well, and I now feel much more financially secure going into a PhD. But, even if finances weren't an issue, I think taking the year off was the right thing for me. It just gave me some breathing room after a very demanding Masters program, and a chance to clear my head, refresh, re-charge, etc. Stepping away from it for a year convinced me that academia was what I truly wanted to do. I think I might have burned out if I had gone straight through.

In terms of downsides, I would say that it's challenging to apply for a PhD when you are not a student. As a student, you are in close proximity to libraries, professors, campus resources, etc that can all be very helpful when applying. Not only that, but as a student your schedule is more or less flexible if you need to study for the GREs or prepare applications. This is not necessarily the case if you're working a 9-5 job in a non-academic environment. In my case, even something as simple as arranging transcripts or calling references became a major pain because I had to leave work early so I could get it done during business hours. Or, if I needed to look up a book or a journal article for my application, it became a major chore as I was no longer close to a university library.

But, these annoyances are in no way insurmountable. And, personally, I would still take the year off if I could choose again.

[bkohn4]

I don't have an MA but I am going back for a PhD after several years. It was the right thing for me to do.

After I finished my BA I was burned out. I couldn't even pick up a book for pleasure. I was 23 and didn't know what I wanted to do in life... to me, grad school was a "logical next step," but looking back at it now with 12 years of perspective, I was a baby! Honestly, I don't think I would have made it through. I was too burned out to keep going, so went to the business world for a year to clear my head and figure things out.

I realized I was not cut out for corporate work within that year. I hated it. I became a teacher because teaching was one thing that had always been a constant in my life (most of my jobs involved tutoring or teaching in some capacity), and I was NOT ready for academia.

In the meantime, my interests evolved... I switched continents and time periods due to a combination of personal growth and exposure to new areas of knowledge (from teaching subjects outside of History, such as Poli Sci and Geography). Two years ago, I decided I was ready for grad school... at first I only considered MA programs, but then got a little encouragement to try for PhDs, and now it just feels right. I feel a strong connection to what I want to pursue... looking back, I was kind of going from one stage to the next, just clearing hurdles, like it was something else to check off from a list. I was a stronger candidate than I would have been at 23, and landed in a program that is a much better fit for me.

In terms of getting letters, I had no real problems. My professors still remembered me and wrote me amazing letters (at least, that's what I was told after I got in). I did better in the GRE than I would have done back then... I didn't spend months studying... I was just able to focus better. My writing sample was from undergrad but the years of teaching kids how to write made me a better writer, so I was able to go back and rework it.

I taught for eight years, total. And yes, life got in the way... I got married, divorced, and remarried (about three weeks ago). But you know what? I don't regret my path. It was right for me. I think of my experience as an asset. I have teaching and grading experience. I know how to develop a curriculum. I am used to dealing with students and being a bit older will give me a little "gravitas" when dealing with juniors and seniors. For most people it might have been "too much" time off, but for me, it was the right amount, and now I'm finally ready Having worked full-time for years has given me a different perspective and work ethic, too. My time-management is much better, I feel excited but I don't feel overwhelmed (even looking at the 30 books I have to read this fall for just two courses, in 10 weeks!), and I have a better support system in place. I even have former students I am still close to who attend the same school as undergrads, so I have built-in friends!

Now, my experience is not the same as everyone else's. I have no doubt that many people are ready to go straight from undergrad to grad. But I will say that if you're questioning your readiness, you might benefit from a little time off. Me? I am glad I waited.

Thank you so much for this. Up until about a month ago I was planning on pursuing a post bac certificate in Classics on route to an Ancient History PhD. I was pushed, pulled and prodded by professors and my parents to get a PhD but I just was too scared... too scared of the job market, the idea of going into debt so young, etc. I decided to teach high school at a local private school, but up until I read this post I felt as though I was letting so many people down. I know I'm making the right decision for myself. Grad school will still be there a few years from now. Thank you so much Cage!

[jogatoronto]

If any of you are wondering, I decided to take the offer. Thanks for all of the responses!