ETS

[msphdhopeful]

I must agree that $20 per score report is insane.

[llcooln6]

Hey feisty,

your scores were below 500 or 600 and you still got into Berkley.......really?? what program??

[feisty]

Hey feisty,

your scores were below 500 or 600 and you still got into Berkley.......really?? what program??

PhD in History (British). My scores were probably somewhere between 500 and 600 but I don't remember where exactly (rage blackout perhaps?)

I don't know how I got in and I'm afraid to ask or dwell on it too much.

I think for PhD they care less about GREs.

[llcooln6]

Congrads, I am jealous .....psychology I guess they care alot...maybe i should apply to history

[Tonights]

I think for PhD they care less about GREs.

In the back of my mind I'm like "please let this be true, please let this be true!"

I can offer some evidence of it being true for anthropology, at least. Out of ten DGS that I emailed to ask about the importance of my quant GRE, nine were like "Pfft, we barely look at it," and I didn't apply to the tenth.

[llcooln6]

I am making a list of Phd program to apply to, History and anthro , lol....any others that dont care about the GRE?

[ewurgler]

One prof I talked to in a top 10 sociology department said "try to get in the 90th percentile in all 3 sections."

I was shocked to hear they expect soc people to have 90th percentile in math. That is nuts.

[michigantrumpet]

Don't forget the subject test... that's an extra $130 or whatever (ETS has eaten up enough of my life... don't need to look up the pricing again). I paid ETS over $500 this year for GRE general/subject and 12 score reports. Vomit!

The only way this will ever change is legislative action. ETS is supposedly a non-profit 501©(3) organization. There is absolutely NO WAY that they are non-profit charging these kinds of fees! I think the way they circumvent the law is by having for-profit branches (e.g., The College Board), and funneling a lot of the services through them (scores by phone, etc). Convince a few high profile members of congress that this is a national crisis, and the loopholes will close. Of course, last I checked there is no grad student lobby... a $15-25k stipend doesn't cover $20,000 luxury boxes at a Wizards game!

The GRE has been around for decades, and it will be around for decades more... sadly :cry:

[llcooln6]

If America can "Kill the electric car", we can certainly "kill the GRE " so to speak....

[pikatopia]

I've noticed that for PhD programs in history, a few program websites (Chicago and Stanford, I remember) say, in not so many words, that they don't actually care about the GRE. From these I get the impression that it might bolster an otherwise weak application, but won't destroy an otherwise strong one.

.

I'm not in History, but I do agree with this...

My GRE scores barely BARELY broke into 4 digits and I was accepted to two "Public Ivy" schools...other than those tragic scores, my application was about as strong as it could be! So my GREs didn't destroy me...WHEW.

[Tonights]

The only way this will ever change is legislative action. ETS is supposedly a non-profit 501©(3) organization. There is absolutely NO WAY that they are non-profit charging these kinds of fees! :

My partner is into student organizing, student power and rights, etc. Conveniently he also has experience in politics and law. I'm going to raise this issue with him, see what he thinks. I wouldn't mind doing a little organizing about this.

[fenderpete]

Oh the irony, as I sit reading this in one tab and look at GRE General booking dates to retake the GRE in the summer in another...

[llcooln6]

Lol I might have to retake it too.....but we should organize something........

[lycoris]

I was a broke college student working part time as an SAT tutor (on the verbal sections) when I signed up for the GREs (I wasn't going to apply right out of undergrad, but figured - rightly - that while still in school and with all the test-taking tips for the SAT still fresh in my mind, I'd be in a position to get my best possible score without paying for a test prep course). I familiarized myself pretty thoroughly with the CD they sent me for free, but that, combined with my tutoring, was the extent of my preparation. My undergrad professors told me that as an English applicant, no one would care about my math scores, but I figured it was best not to blow it off entirely - so, when the writing and verbal sections were done and math questions started popping up on the screen, I answered them as best I could. I think I got through four or five before time ran out - that got me a 610, which is also like 50th percentile. As it turns out, a couple of the schools I applied to use the full score to qualify/disqualify admitted students for fellowships, so it's good I didn't fail to answer questions entirely (but of course now I wish I had done at least a LITTLE studying for the math section, instead of the absolutely none that I did do).

I get why it's necessary. What I don't get is the subject test in Literature that I had to take. Michael Berube had a great article in the Chronicle of Higher Ed recently about the relative uselessness of the test for judging applicants' level of preparedness for graduate study: http://chronicle.com/weekly/v55/i22/22b00501.htm (subscription required); what he misses, I think, is how poorly prepared most undergraduate English majors are for this kind of thing. I mean, I get making it hard, but did they have to make it THAT hard? I've never felt worse about myself than while I was studying for, taking, waiting for, and reviewing my GRE subject test. Despite my lousy score, of course, I've been admitted with funding to a top-10 (inasmuch as rankings are worth anything) program. Some of the schools I'm waiting to hear from specifically told me NOT to send my subject test scores, so my fingers are crossed a little harder on those.

[michigantrumpet]

My partner is into student organizing, student power and rights, etc. Conveniently he also has experience in politics and law. I'm going to raise this issue with him, see what he thinks. I wouldn't mind doing a little organizing about this.

I'm with you! I'm no stranger to protests and writing letters...

[zhukora]

If this is completely true, then I would expect to see more perfect scores on here because you can buy some pretty comprehensive prep books for under $30 and spend weeks studying for the exam before taking it. But I don't see many perfect scores. Now whether the GRE measures anything worthwhile is debatable, but the blanket statement that you can just study, learn the test and earn a perfect score is a bit overblown.

I'm inclined to agree with this. If it were just a case of learning the method, anyone who is qualified enough to consider going to grad school should be trainable enough to learn it. I certainly don't think that the GRE can show as complete a picture of an applicant as something so widely considered "vital" to an application should, but it does appear to show something beyond how well acquainted you are with standardized testing formats. As synthla says, I can't say whether what it shows is worthwhile, but a majority of grad programs seem to think it is and as a lowly applicant I'm not really in a position to argue.

[sugaku]

I was a broke college student working part time as an SAT tutor

I'm no stranger to protests and writing letters...

Anyone else hear a blues riff all of a sudden?

[RF237]

I agree that schools need some sort of common assessment for all applicants, but the GRE is not the answer. It is ridiculously expensive to take, and ridiculously expensive to get your scores sent out. And they keep raising the price for score reports--I believe it was only $16/report last year when I applied. At least you can order online now: before you had to mail in the form or order over the phone, and they charged you an extra fee for ordering over the phone.

I disagree, however, with those who think the test isn't teachable. I, for one, took the GRE, was unhappy with my scores, paid a ridiculous amount of money for a name-brand course, and raised my score around 150 points. The types of questions that put on the test are so particular and always fit certain types and patterns so that if you understand how they write the questions/what format they're conforming to, what they're trying to test with them, and the best strategy for quickly answering them, you will do much better on the test than someone who merely memorized formulas and vocabulary. I think that, perhaps, is why many people don't improve their scores with books--when self-teaching, perhaps, they tend to focus more on vocabulary and math formulas than on testing strategies. All the major testing companies guarantee that they will raise your score by 100 points, or let you take the class again, and some even refund your money after a certain lack of progress on your part. They're certainly not losing money, so I imagine they're doing something right. Not to mention the fact that newspapers publish articles every year on how the children of middle-class and wealthy parents have an advantage in admissions because their parents can afford test-prep courses. Even my large, city public high school had it's own pathetic version of a test-prep class that it required of all honors students.

[synthla]

I disagree, however, with those who think the test isn't teachable.

I wasn't saying that the test isn't teachable; only disagreeing with the statement that anyone could get a perfect score with enough practice.

[sugaku]

I found the Princeton Review's "Crash Course for the GRE" to be useful just for that reason: they focus on test-taking strategy and point out the major ways that ETS tries to screw you with trick questions. Plus the intro is unbelievably snarky.

[liszt85]

I agree that schools need some sort of common assessment for all applicants, but the GRE is not the answer. It is ridiculously expensive to take, and ridiculously expensive to get your scores sent out. And they keep raising the price for score reports--I believe it was only $16/report last year when I applied. At least you can order online now: before you had to mail in the form or order over the phone, and they charged you an extra fee for ordering over the phone.

I disagree, however, with those who think the test isn't teachable. I, for one, took the GRE, was unhappy with my scores, paid a ridiculous amount of money for a name-brand course, and raised my score around 150 points. The types of questions that put on the test are so particular and always fit certain types and patterns so that if you understand how they write the questions/what format they're conforming to, what they're trying to test with them, and the best strategy for quickly answering them, you will do much better on the test than someone who merely memorized formulas and vocabulary. I think that, perhaps, is why many people don't improve their scores with books--when self-teaching, perhaps, they tend to focus more on vocabulary and math formulas than on testing strategies. All the major testing companies guarantee that they will raise your score by 100 points, or let you take the class again, and some even refund your money after a certain lack of progress on your part. They're certainly not losing money, so I imagine they're doing something right. Not to mention the fact that newspapers publish articles every year on how the children of middle-class and wealthy parents have an advantage in admissions because their parents can afford test-prep courses. Even my large, city public high school had it's own pathetic version of a test-prep class that it required of all honors students.

And I, for one, don't think anybody should spend any money on getting tutored for GRE! Its an easy test. All I did was read through 15 word lists (the most important ones like A,E, S, T, etc) a few days before the test. I also did 2 practice tests. I also read through a high frequency word list and I got 2 words on the test from that list. I know I'd have scored much higher on my verbal had I done all the 50 wordlists but its a waste of precious time, and I had better things to do. I got a 610 on the verbal and a 780 on the quant (after screwing it up pretty bad). So I don't see how anybody can score bad on a GRE unless they were not taught enough math at the school level. Most indians (engg and sciences) and all my friends have 800 on their quants. Even the worst students here have 800 on the quant which is why I say I screwed up real bad on the test, so please don't think that I'm trying to boast here. These are just facts as I've observed them.

[synthla]

I know I'd have scored much higher on my verbal had I done all the 50 wordlists but its a waste of precious time, and I had better things to do. I got a 610 on the verbal and a 780 on the quant (after screwing it up pretty bad). So I don't see how anybody can score bad on a GRE unless they were not taught enough math at the school level.

:roll:

[zhukora]

I agree that schools need some sort of common assessment for all applicants, but the GRE is not the answer. It is ridiculously expensive to take, and ridiculously expensive to get your scores sent out. And they keep raising the price for score reports--I believe it was only $16/report last year when I applied. At least you can order online now: before you had to mail in the form or order over the phone, and they charged you an extra fee for ordering over the phone.

I disagree, however, with those who think the test isn't teachable. I, for one, took the GRE, was unhappy with my scores, paid a ridiculous amount of money for a name-brand course, and raised my score around 150 points. The types of questions that put on the test are so particular and always fit certain types and patterns so that if you understand how they write the questions/what format they're conforming to, what they're trying to test with them, and the best strategy for quickly answering them, you will do much better on the test than someone who merely memorized formulas and vocabulary. I think that, perhaps, is why many people don't improve their scores with books--when self-teaching, perhaps, they tend to focus more on vocabulary and math formulas than on testing strategies. All the major testing companies guarantee that they will raise your score by 100 points, or let you take the class again, and some even refund your money after a certain lack of progress on your part. They're certainly not losing money, so I imagine they're doing something right. Not to mention the fact that newspapers publish articles every year on how the children of middle-class and wealthy parents have an advantage in admissions because their parents can afford test-prep courses. Even my large, city public high school had it's own pathetic version of a test-prep class that it required of all honors students.

I don't disagree that the test is teachable to a point. It is. But I think there are many other components besides just learning strategy that go into it too, and the weight these components have on a test taker's final score will vary widely from individual to individual--things like time management, ability to keep cool under pressure, familiarity with the material, quickness of recall, etc. If you don't have these things, no matter how much method and strategy you've memorized, it'll only get you so far. Again, I don't know that these things are worthwhile traits for ETS to be measuring for, or for grad schools to be looking for, and I don't know if these skills are even particularly useful outside the standardized test world, but since I'm not on an adcom it's not my place to say.

That said, anecdata time! This may only be moderately relevant so make what you will of it. I didn't do any prep for the GRE beyond a few days of reviewing formulas for the quant and pretty much ignoring vocabulary. I've never taken a test prep class, and, at that point, had never learned anything about standardized test methodology, even though I'd taken a fair number of them throughout my public schooling days. I think I would be pretty hard-pressed to top the score I got even if I had taken every prep class available. I later trained to be a teacher for Kaplan GRE prep classes, and interestingly, with only a single exception, none of my fellow trainees had ever taken a test prep class or done much book prepping either. Given that you're required to have a combined score in the 90th percentile or higher to qualify to teach for Kaplan, I do think that makes a statement about...something. Maybe the self-selectivity of people who choose to teach these kinds of classes, maybe something about the local educational demographics, maybe something a little more relevant. Either way, I found that to be some interesting food for thought. A good friend of mine who has taught for Kaplan for close to two years now has made similar observations.

[orangepotato]

So I don't see how anybody can score bad on a GRE unless they were not taught enough math at the school level.

Badly. Try to get your grammar correct when you are being derisive to others!

Also, how'd you score on the social intelligence portion? This is a pretty rude comment as some people are very intelligent and successful, but poor test-takers. As far as I know, these types of tests are very poor predictors of scholastic and professional success.

[poiuyt]

And I, for one, don't think anybody should spend any money on getting tutored for GRE! Its an easy test.

Quick! Someone call ETS! They should cancel all their classes so the clearly stupid people who shouldn't bother trying to get their scores up on this easy as pie test won't waste their time!

I know I'd have scored much higher on my verbal had I done all the 50 wordlists but its a waste of precious time, and I had better things to do.

So should we or shouldn't we study for the GRE??? I'm so confused!

Most indians (engg and sciences) and all my friends have 800 on their quants. Even the worst students here have 800 on the quant which is why I say I screwed up real bad on the test, so please don't think that I'm trying to boast here.

That's it gradcafe crowd, pack up your stuff and stat applying to Mickey D's. We should clearly just bow out and make way for the superior race of engg and science majors.

/snark.

Seriously? Wow...