Thinking about quitting phD program... Need advice!

[ImmunologyGrad]

I apologize for the long post....whoever reads this and gives advice, I thank you SO MUCH in advance.

I've been in my immunology phD program for about a month. I'm absolutely miserable. The classes are super fast-paced, which is fine, IF I actually had time to study. Right now I am working with my PI about 8-10 hours a day in lab in addition to class time, so by the time I get home around 8 pm, eat dinner, take a shower, etc, I have NO time to study much less relax, talk to my husband, or generally enjoy free time and hobbies. I have not been allowed to take lunch breaks or any breaks at all during the day. I have already lost weight (which I did NOT need to do.) Also, I feel completely incompetent in lab. I have no prior immunology experience, so everything is brand new to me. I love learning new things, but my PI is not patient with me at all. He rolls his eyes and gives looks of disgust when I can't answer his questions. My anxiety has gotten so high and I am so afraid to screw up, that I am screwing up even simple things that I've done 100000 times in my old lab. Basically, I have too much on my mind to think straight. I felt this way after only the first day in the lab. I thought it would get better with time, but it is only getting worse. Next month I will have to speak at 2 meetings and attend a conference. The next month I will have to present my research at a 2 hour poster session. Just thinking about these things makes me sick to my stomach. When will I have time to prepare posters and talks when I don't even have time to study for my next exam?

This bad experience has made me wonder if I am on the right career path at all. I know my life will be like this for the next 4-5 years in this phD program, then postdoc, then first "real" job.... The thought of writing grants and publications is just awful. The writing itself isn't so bad, but not the time constraints and the competition/pressure. I see what long hours these PIs work, and that isn't for me. I need a 9-5 type job with weekends off to actually enjoy life. I have recently realized that life is too short to not enjoy it, and working 24/7 is not enjoying it. I miss my husband and the time we used to spend together, and he is getting depressed about this as well. I think I would rather be poor and happy than semi-rich and stressed. I realize that I should have thought about this before ever joining a PhD program, but the small state school that I came from did not have enough of this environment for me to truly see this. Now, I am at one of the best immuno phD programs in the country, and I am terrified of what will happen when and if I leave the program (will they even let me go? will they ask for the stipend back?)

What are my options? What jobs are available for someone with a B.S. ? I do still love immunology and love lab work in general, just not in such a high stress environment. If I quit now, how easy would it be for me to find a lab job such as a research associate? Would I ever have to take work home, or would most jobs allow me to work 9-5 and then be done for the day? I don't mind hard work, I just need a break every now and then. I have an excellent GPA, 3 years of research experience in undergrad, and 3 solid references, if that would help my job search at all. I'm afraid if I quit the phD program, I am going to end up in a miserable stressful job that takes up just as much time as the program. If that is the case, I might as well get a PhD out of the misery if I can stay long enough.

As you can see, I'm going through a bit of an identity crisis. I've known I wanted to go into science since I was a little kid and everything has always fallen magically into place for me. For the first time in my life, I am completely at a loss.

Helpppppppppppppppp

[Hatem]

Can you change your PI?

If he/she is the problem, why don't you find another and "more flexible" PI. We are all humans and we all need breaks with working hours.

Your words make me feel that you are on the right path but it's your advisor who makes things harder than it's.

[Tall Chai Latte]

Hey ImmunologyGrad,

I went through a period like what you are experiencing right now. I had 4 unsuccessful rotations in a roll and was full of doubts. So I understand how you feel.

Since you've only been in your program for a month, what you are experiencing right now is what new students experience: much faster pace, many more things to juggle at the same time, and feeling incompetent. You are not incompetent! Your program wouldn't have accepted you if you were really bad.

I'm assuming this is your first rotation (and your program requires you to do rotations). If it is, I wouldn't worry too much on how your PI's reaction. This is a period of time for you to see if you can work with the guy, if the atmosphere of the lab suits you, and if the research is interesting. Some PIs are like that, rolling their eyes when students don't know something or answer something wrong. Just don't let that get to you. On your end, try your best to complete what you are asked to do. By the end of the rotation, you'll get to move on to a new lab. I ran into similar situation as yours during one of my rotations, where I just couldn't work well with the PI (one of the PIs basically called me lazy/a fraud, just because I didn't get the protein prep working the first couple tries!).

Career prospect-wise, yea this is where everyone worries. To be honest, I'm on the same boat as you on this one, so I don't really have any good advice. With the prospect being bleak, I sometimes wonder if remaining in my program is worthy at all. But I suppose I'll roll with things..

I would suggest you to stick around for a little bit longer, and then evaluate. It could be impostor syndrome that's making you feel awful about everything. If you still feel miserable after, say, a semester or two, then it is time to look for other options. I know a couple students in my cohort who left the program after their first year and second year, though I'm not sure if the grad program asks for tuition back (I've heard some places that do). It's better to leave early than later on when you have devoted a significant number of years into your work, and your options outside of academia decrease as time goes on. With a B.S., you have more options than someone with a PhD. Once you become smart, you cannot dumb back down.

Grad school is a long journey, with constant setbacks and obstacles. To counterbalance, you have to find something outside of work that you are passionate about. Exercise is great way to release all the negative energy, and don't throw away your old hobbies. Take baby steps and you'll be okay.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Tall Chai Latte

[ImmunologyGrad]

Thanks to both of you for the responses.

Yes, this is my first rotation and my program requires 3. I have considered trying to tough it out for this first rotation and see if the next 2 are any better, but I honestly don't know if I can do it. As I said above, thinking about the meetings/conferences/poster sessions I have to attend in a month or two literally make me feel sick. I feel so far behind in this field that I don't even know how to graph my data, much less create a poster and present it. I think my terrible experience with this rotation has almost ruined it for me---I automatically associate this anxiety and misery with ANY PhD lab rotation, so I don't even want to try another PI. I know making this association is a bit unrealistic, but I can't change how I feel. Analogy: Getting bitten by a dog once and always being afraid of all dogs.

I do know one thing for certain: writing grants, working long hours, and preparing publications is not for me. I love immunology and lab work, but not the "academia" part of it. Would it really be worth staying if I know this from the beginning? Even if I could tough it out and stay, what would be my job options with a PhD that do NOT involve writing grants and working evenings and weekends? I think family is more important than work. Time with my husband, traveling the world, and experiencing new things are what make me happy. I realize money is necessary to survive, so that would be my only reason for having a job (like 95% of the world, I'm sure). But since a job is necessary, a job is science is where I would most like to be.

Does anyone know if lab jobs with a B.S. such as research associates have to work crazy hours or assist in writing grants?

[emmm]

Don't quit based on one bad experience. This PI sounds like a jerk. Perhaps you can ask students ahead of you in the program who they would rotate with if they had to do rotations now. It could be that your entire department is like this, as sometimes a whole program seems to have a certain mindset (but I hope not). However, if you are unable to find a happy home where you are, you do still have options, It IS possible to transfer, and coming from a top program would certainly help you transfer somewhere less intense/competitive and more relaxed. Don't give up on your dreams because of one inept "mentor" who sounds as though he should not be allowed anywhere near first year grad students.

[SymmetryOfImperfection]

I think this may be typical of life sciences. My first undergrad research was also in the life sciences, doing fluorescence microscopy on amyloid protein. My PI was exactly like yours, down to the eye rolling. He also gave me bad grades for the research.

I quit and did my second undergrad research in materials chemistry.

So it might not be you, or your PI, it might just be your field.

Edited September 11, 2012 by SymmetryOfImperfection

[ImmunologyGrad]

I think it is more my field than my PI. My department has a book full of "reviews" for PIs. After every rotation students must fill out a form about their PIs and add to the book. My PI actually has some of the best reviews in the book. I think he is shocked at my lack of experience and knowledge. Maybe the other students who reviewed him had more experience in the field. I really have no idea who I would rotate with next because this particular PI is the only PI doing research on x at this institution. I honestly believed I would join the lab after the first rotation because everything SEEMED to be so perfect....until I got here.

Most of the other PIs in the book for my department have scary reviews.....so if my current PI is bad, I'm sure another PI would only be worse. I could be wrong, but I just have to make the decision whether to stay long enough to find out.

[Dal PhDer]

HI there,

I am not in your field or do bench work like you...so I don't know about the job prospects or if it'll get better and such...but I did want to echo what the others have said, in that you may be experiencing the difficult transition from ug to graduate school. The transition itself is stressful and hard, and it sounds like you have more added on to it with a somewhat demeaning supervisor who works you like a slave.

It sounds like you are unhappy with several things going on- between lack of time to study, free time, disrespect, overwhelming duties. Perhaps you can talk to other students or even a graduate coordinator about what are the expectations of students in their program. In my program, your first year is dedicated to course work, you cannot move onto your comprehensives until you've completed all your courses. You're also not allowed to do dissertation research at the expense of your courses and/or comps. On top of THAT, you're only allowed to work 10-15 hrs a week...this ensures that a students and the department are aware that your time is spent on your own work.

I think you should try and stay with it a little longer- maybe working with a different PI is all you need...however, I know what it's like to hate going into work/school everyday, and it constantly being a source of anxiety. Encase this isn't the route you want to take, maybe you could make an appointment with a career counsellor at your school to discuss potential paths for you to take. This might help relieve some anxiety around thinking you have no other options.

Goodluck, and know you're not alone. Grad school can be a really difficult time for many students, where they are in environments that beat them down. We're all here for ya and are wishing you the best!

[Tall Chai Latte]

I think it is more my field than my PI. My department has a book full of "reviews" for PIs. After every rotation students must fill out a form about their PIs and add to the book. My PI actually has some of the best reviews in the book. I think he is shocked at my lack of experience and knowledge. Maybe the other students who reviewed him had more experience in the field. I really have no idea who I would rotate with next because this particular PI is the only PI doing research on x at this institution. I honestly believed I would join the lab after the first rotation because everything SEEMED to be so perfect....until I got here.

Most of the other PIs in the book for my department have scary reviews.....so if my current PI is bad, I'm sure another PI would only be worse. I could be wrong, but I just have to make the decision whether to stay long enough to find out.

Well, student evaluations aren't accurate sometimes, as people have concerns about speaking the truth. There are PIs who are so nice outside of lab, but once you are in, rotating or not, you see the ugly side. If people are outspoken about other PIs, how come your PI gets the nicest reviews? Are there other students in your lab whom you can talk to?

It's probably just your PI. Every field has its own little thing, whether you come in experienced or not, you are bound to feel overwhelmed as a new graduate student. Don't give up! Although my current projects are based on 80% of my past trainings, I still feel I'm falling short knowledge-wise all over the place all the time. You are not alone!

[ImmunologyGrad]

Are there any job prospects out there for PhD graduates that DON'T involve long hours, grant writing, and publication preparation? Like I said, this is the part that I know I will never be able to tolerate. If I will not have any options like that after getting a phD (obviously academia is out, but I'm not sure about industry options), then I know getting a PhD isn't right for me. I don't want to waste any time if I know what lies at the end is not worth it.

I have a meeting with a career counselor in 30 minutes. We'll see how it goes. Luckily my PI is out of town today so I have the freedom to leave lab for an hour to meet with her.

[victor.s.andrei]

I apologize for the long post....whoever reads this and gives advice, I thank you SO MUCH in advance.

I've been in my immunology phD program for about a month. I'm absolutely miserable. The classes are super fast-paced, which is fine, IF I actually had time to study. Right now I am working with my PI about 8-10 hours a day in lab in addition to class time, so by the time I get home around 8 pm, eat dinner, take a shower, etc, I have NO time to study much less relax, talk to my husband, or generally enjoy free time and hobbies. I have not been allowed to take lunch breaks or any breaks at all during the day. I have already lost weight (which I did NOT need to do.) Also, I feel completely incompetent in lab. I have no prior immunology experience, so everything is brand new to me. I love learning new things, but my PI is not patient with me at all. He rolls his eyes and gives looks of disgust when I can't answer his questions. My anxiety has gotten so high and I am so afraid to screw up, that I am screwing up even simple things that I've done 100000 times in my old lab. Basically, I have too much on my mind to think straight. I felt this way after only the first day in the lab. I thought it would get better with time, but it is only getting worse. Next month I will have to speak at 2 meetings and attend a conference. The next month I will have to present my research at a 2 hour poster session. Just thinking about these things makes me sick to my stomach. When will I have time to prepare posters and talks when I don't even have time to study for my next exam?

This bad experience has made me wonder if I am on the right career path at all. I know my life will be like this for the next 4-5 years in this phD program, then postdoc, then first "real" job.... The thought of writing grants and publications is just awful. The writing itself isn't so bad, but not the time constraints and the competition/pressure. I see what long hours these PIs work, and that isn't for me. I need a 9-5 type job with weekends off to actually enjoy life. I have recently realized that life is too short to not enjoy it, and working 24/7 is not enjoying it. I miss my husband and the time we used to spend together, and he is getting depressed about this as well. I think I would rather be poor and happy than semi-rich and stressed. I realize that I should have thought about this before ever joining a PhD program, but the small state school that I came from did not have enough of this environment for me to truly see this. Now, I am at one of the best immuno phD programs in the country, and I am terrified of what will happen when and if I leave the program (will they even let me go? will they ask for the stipend back?)

What are my options? What jobs are available for someone with a B.S. ? I do still love immunology and love lab work in general, just not in such a high stress environment. If I quit now, how easy would it be for me to find a lab job such as a research associate? Would I ever have to take work home, or would most jobs allow me to work 9-5 and then be done for the day? I don't mind hard work, I just need a break every now and then. I have an excellent GPA, 3 years of research experience in undergrad, and 3 solid references, if that would help my job search at all. I'm afraid if I quit the phD program, I am going to end up in a miserable stressful job that takes up just as much time as the program. If that is the case, I might as well get a PhD out of the misery if I can stay long enough.

As you can see, I'm going through a bit of an identity crisis. I've known I wanted to go into science since I was a little kid and everything has always fallen magically into place for me. For the first time in my life, I am completely at a loss.

Helpppppppppppppppp

I'm in a totally different field, but here are my thoughts on your situation.

1. Beware of impostor syndrome. Just because you feel incompetent does not necessarily mean you are incompetent.

2. You might be burned out or overloaded. Perhaps you could investigate the possibility of taking a semester off - or at least backing off on a few things that you are doing this semester?

[bamafan]

I hope you've gotten the situation figured out. If not, you should consider just sitting down with your PI and talking about all of your concerns. Touch base, find a mutual understanding, and work from there. Honestly, complaining about your situation online won't help it get solved. Talking to your PI will. I'm sure he's just frustrated due to a gap between expectations and production, but if you two discuss it, I think it can work out quite well. He's human too, you know.

Edited November 29, 2012 by bamafan

[ScaryGoose]

I know I'm replying to this a little late and, like the previous poster, hope you figured out your situation.

But just a couple of words - you are going to mess up in the lab. This is absolute. It's the mistakes that teach you how to do things. So if your PI is getting angry and you for messing up your experiment in your first couple of tries, then I would steer clear from that PI.

As previous posters suggested - this sounds like a rotation, so just don't pick that lab for your graduate studies and move on - I'm surprised students would actually pick this lab with such a horrible and unsympathetic PI. Part of their JOB is to teach and guide you through your studies not knock you down through your efforts.

Your problem sounds like you are on the right track, just haven't found the right lab. There are labs out there that have a 9-5 type schedule (including lunch hours). However you should know with your previous experience that sometimes you will have to arrive early / stay late for your experiments. My first rotation was intense - I worked so often that I could not find the time to study except for the weekends.

Post back and let us know how things turned out for you.

[ScaryGoose]

On a side note I am currently in a rotation where not the PI but a 4th year graduate student is making my life difficult. You get them in all shapes and sizes. The great thing is that I don't particularly like the research so my decision to not choose this lab for my graduate studies has already been made. It's just a matter of learning different techniques at this point.

[Mandalpaca]

This may sound too simplified but life is too short to be that miserable. What is important in your life -your husband and doing what you love. I am not in your field so I am not familar in dealing with PIs but I will say I would NOT tolerate that treatment. I have always enjoyed school and cannot imagine being in a lab for 8-10 hrs a day and dealing with that. It's demeaning and you should not have to put up with that.

[The Graduate]

Join the club I guess. I know how you feel and I'm going through exactly the same thing. Luckily I'm done my course work, but my project seems to be going nowhere and the results I get are mediocre. For the last 2 months the simple experiments that I did everyday just stopped working, literally just stopped working at all and I have no idea what the hell is going on as I've kept everything the same. I feel terribly incompetent, as though everyone else is grinding out results and publishing, while I'm just struggling to get the simplest thing to work.

 

On top of that I have feelings that my PI doubts me and thinks I'm incompetent. He also said I have communication problems and almost didn't accept me as a PhD student because of it. To make things worse, I moved away from home, from all my friends and my girlfriend. I'm in a new city and haven't made any new friends, and I'm in a long distance relationship. I'm going broke and live in an empty apartment with nothing but a mattress, a small laptop desk, and a chair. I can't cook, nor have time to, so many of my meals consist of milk and oatmeal. I would be lying if I said I'm not completely miserable.

 

But I am hopeful things will get better. I think this is just something all grad students have to go through. Grinding through experiments that don't work, resolving conflicts with your PI, and finally getting some kind of balance in life.

 

Cheers hopefully things get better for us all

[LMac]

I'm not in your field, but my first rotation was in an Immunology lab and they were lovely. The work is hard, and complicated, and I was in over my head most of the time, but a PI/lab that understands that a PhD is a training degree and that sets realistic expectations will make all the difference. 

 

My only advice would be to just hang in through this rotation. It really might be that it's just this lab that sucks, and you might miss out on things you'd love based only on them. You worked hard to get where you are. For your other rotations, talk to students in higher years that rotated or joined those labs. Maybe they aren't comfortable writing what they really think in those reviews. You might get a more realistic idea of what a lab is like if you can get a face-to-face. When I started my program they told us that most of us would consider quitting more than once, and that's just because a PhD is really hard. If you make that decision, just make sure it's for the right reasons for you. Best of luck to you.