M.A. with no thesis

[CrazyCatLady80]

I just found out that my MA program is no longer letting its grad students to do a thesis. Rather they want us to write a highly polished 25-page paper. I am furious. Personally, I think it dumbs the program down. Do you think this will affect my admission into a top PhD program? In my opinion, what makes a MA is the thesis - not a paper.

[CageFree]

The MA program at many CSUs is geared toward part-timers (like teachers), many of whom won't do a thesis (they do have the exam option?). Still, it's not fair to you to change your program the year you're supposed to finish.

You need to speak to your adviser because you agreed to go into the program knowing you could do a thesis... you wouldn't have gone to the program if you couldn't, right? I can see changing it for the incoming class (don't agree with it, but I understand), but not to people who are almost done. What if you'd already started?

[CrazyCatLady80]

I don't know all details. They are getting rid of comps as well. All you need to do is write a highly polished 25-page paper. Those who are graduating this spring can still do a thesis, but I am graduating Spring 2014. I am just starting to do my research. What I am mostly worried about is how this will affect my admission to a PhD program. Will the top programs look down on me for not doing a thesis?

[CrazyCatLady80]

I don't know all details. They are getting rid of comps as well. All you need to do is write a highly polished 25-page paper. Those who are graduating this spring can still do a thesis, but I am graduating Spring 2014. I am just starting to do my research. What I am mostly worried about is how this will affect my admission to a PhD program. Will the top programs look down on me for not doing a thesis?

[Shep]

Like Cagefree said, speak to your adviser. This sounds more like a project for a terminal degree rather than one that prepares you to go on to a PhD. Most papers, 25 pages or less, are pretty standard for graduate courses. It would be no different than writing a term paper! I don't know if this would affect your chances of going on, it all depends on the quality of your finished product. Consider BA to PhD applicants who do not have a thesis to present. However, since you are an MA student, there might be expectations.

[Simple Twist of Fate]

Shep makes a good point about expectations, and if you end up having to follow this new rule (which sounds very unfair given your own expectations entering the program) it might be something to address somewhere in the application process - whether in your SOP, or by making sure a LOR explains the situation, or something else.

The good thing is that most writing samples for PhD apps are set at around a 25-pg limit, so you may not have to go through the nightmare of cutting your blood, sweat and tears down to size.

[TMP]

SToF is right. you don't really need a MA to enter in the PhD program. Remember, the MA is there to help you fill in the gaps like more coursework in a new area of interest, languages, research...

Look at your 25 page "thesis" as a potential journal article. Most journal articles have to run less than 10,000 words (about 30 pages). You can use discursive footnotes (lit review in the notes rather than the body). My MA program required a thesis of no longer than 40-60 pages because there's an expectation of cutting it down to make it a publishable article. A good lit review in a regular thesis can run up to 12 pages anyway. So in other words, a "highly polished" 25 page paper is a very tight form of a regular thesis.

If you're that concerned, let your LOR writers speak for you- they have room in their LORs, you have little room in your SOP.

Definitely discuss your concerns with your adviser and see what s/he says.

[truthfinder]

In some places, the trend is starting to turn against a thesis in the MA. This is even coming from one of the top universities in my country. While it is a blow to what you expected, there really are advantages to not writing the thesis. You might easily be able to publish your MA paper which looks better on a CV than just getting a thesis done. Having an article published ranks far higher in most PhD admissions committees than having a thesis completed.

[CrazyCatLady80]

OK....I spoke to my unofficial advisor. Turns out that my actual advisor had it wrong. This 25-page paper option is only required for this new class. Since I started my MA a while back I have the choice of doing the thesis or the 25-page paper. Thank god. I just didn't think it is fair for the rules to suddenly change in the middle of the game. As for what I am going to do, I really don't know. A highly polished, publication quality 25-page paper does allow me to focus on producing a good writing sample - not a monster of a document that probably no one will ever read. However, like I said, I am worried how this will play out among the PhD programs. My unofficial advisor said they probably wouldn't care, but I still want to do some research before I make a decision.

[CageFree]

I won't be doing a MA thesis in my program. Granted it's a Ph.D. program but traditionally you would still have to do a thesis and pass qualifying exams before advancing. We're doing a year-long research seminar in which we are to produce a journal-quality article, so similar to what CSUN is requiring.

I doubt a program will look down upon you for not having a MA thesis, personally, especially if by skipping that you've been able to produce something that is publishable and will fit nicely as a writing sample in its entirety.

[Shep]

Think of it this way. How likely is it that you will publish? People on these threads seem to indicate that this is an easy task. This is an extremely grueling task that meets with much rejection before acceptance. Also, at the MA level, what options are open to you besides Graduate journals, conference publications, etc? I still contend that a large written work, shows substance rather than a smaller work. If you can get your project published, then great, but keep your options open. For my thesis, I wrote a substantial work of over a 100 pages. I am currently retooling each chapter at a time for publication. This gives me a much larger body of work at my disposal. Consider the options. I really dislike how there seems to be a dumbing down of higher ed, especially the humanities. Not to sound disagreeable....though seminars in producing a journal-quality articles are great learning tools, this in no way guarantees being published.

[CrazyCatLady80]

To be fair to CSUN, the History Department got rid of thesis/comps due to a union grievance. The union said professors weren't being paid to supervise thesis/comps so they were told from up above to get rid of them. It does meet the needs of the students better. Most aren't looking to get a PhD, but rather earn their degree and leave. That being said, I do think it dumbs down the program. It is funny how all the professors are trying to sell it as this brand new idea that they created to help students, never mentioning the whole union issue. Of course, my unofficial advisor is a straight shooter and doesn't believe in spinnging. Still haven't decided what to do. I have plenty of time to think about it, which is nice.

[Riotbeard]

Actually, this is happening in a good couple of PhD program MAs. We no longer have traditional comps or a traditional thesis (my "thesis" was 35 pages and supposed to be of journal article quality), and our new program was based on changes Duke made to their program, and I believe (although I could be wrong) UT Austin has done something similar. The 100 page thesis is fairly archaic and useless. Unless you use it for your dissertation or think you can break it up into 3-5 good articles (show me a PhD student with 3-5 good peer-reviewed articles..., they are pretty rare), its just a big projet done for the sake of it. Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but in the context of average 8 year time to completion for humanities PhDs, it doesn't make a ton of sense to devote so much time to a paper that is not that useful in the long run. Also a lot of programs might make you pick up an MA at their institution anyways, so it probably won't affect you that much.

[CageFree]

Think of it this way. How likely is it that you will publish? People on these threads seem to indicate that this is an easy task.

I, for one, didn't mean to imply that the article would actually BE published. I said "publishable" and "journal-quality." Just to clarify.

[CageFree]

Actually, this is happening in a good couple of PhD program MAs. We no longer have traditional comps or a traditional thesis (my "thesis" was 35 pages and supposed to be of journal article quality), and our new program was based on changes Duke made to their program, and I believe (although I could be wrong) UT Austin has done something similar. The 100 page thesis is fairly archaic and useless. Unless you use it for your dissertation or think you can break it up into 3-5 good articles (show me a PhD student with 3-5 good peer-reviewed articles..., they are pretty rare), its just a big projet done for the sake of it. Not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but in the context of average 8 year time to completion for humanities PhDs, it doesn't make a ton of sense to devote so much time to a paper that is not that useful in the long run. Also a lot of programs might make you pick up an MA at their institution anyways, so it probably won't affect you that much.

This is exactly what we were told at UC Davis as well.

[Shep]

So, I was right. Publishable does not mean published and therefore, misleading. This process is truly dumbing down academia. This whole process should be rigorous. Only the best should succeed and therefore deserve their spots in the field. Call me archaic, but I know that I can produce a lengthy work. This will come as no surprise to me when I have to research and write a dissertation. By the way Riotbeard, I am published and so my thesis is far from useless.

[Riotbeard]

Congratulations Shep. I am also published and not from a thesis. It's not to say that a thesis has never been useful but that as a one size fits all system, it is suspect at best. You clearly used your thesis in a way that is highly advantagous, but not having a thesis doesn't mean that a program is not "rigorous" or intellectual. And having a thesis in a program does not mean the program is rigorous. There are plenty of programs with poor intellectual trackrecords that have theses, and places that have dropped them have not dropped off the face of the earth. I am going to stop here, but all I will say is the academic history system is clearly in crisis, and continuing with business as usual is probably not the solution. Maybe no thesis isn't the answer, and maybe it is, but clinging to tradition (as far professional aspects) is kind of what got the profession to this point. This is off-topic now...