Begging for money

[patapata]

So... I got a sweet deal to my number three school. And, my top choice gave out awards and did not include me.

I was planning to write top choice and ask if they were going to give out additional scholarships/fellowships. Then, I was going to remind them how much I love Top Choice and how much I want to go there. And, finally, I was going to mention that despite my boundless love for Top Choice, Number Three U has given me such an enormous package, that the decision has been made for me, unless I can get at least a little bit something from Top Choice..

I figure, if they really want me, they will cough up some money. If they don't really want me, well, they won't give me a dime, but then I go to number three. Is it worth it to try this? Or will it backfire on me if I mention to Top Choice that I already have $$$ from Number Three?

[thepoorstockinger]

This is what I wrote to try to leverage more money out of an MA program... it worked: ("sshrc" is a large external funding award for one year offered by the federal gov in Canada)

Hello Dr. X,

*Some other stuff unrelated for a few paragraphs*

Is the financial offer flexible at all? I have an offer from another program that I am considering that is about $8k (if I get a shrrc) or $12k (If I do not) higher over two years than School U's. While I do understand that the cost of living in SMALL TOWN is lower than in many other areas, School U's graduate tuition fees are also higher than many other schools ($2000 a year higher than the aforementioned program). I understand that the history program at School U is new and that money is tight at every university at this point but is there a possibility for an even slightly larger financial offer?

I certainly don't expect an offer of the same size as the one I mentioned above but even a bit more (either the option to to still hold the Graduate Fellowship in year 1 if I am awarded a SSHRC or a slightly larger Entrance Award) to close the gap between the two offers would be ideal of something like that is possible. I am very interested in School U's program but it is hard to walk away from that amount of money. If there is anything that can be done to close the gap I would greatly appreciate it.

They ended up giving me more money. School U was my top choice but I would have been happy at the other place I mention as well. Just be honest and polite, but maybe not mention the other program by name.

[RKSim]

Short answer:

YES!

Long:

A friend/advisor told me at the beginning of the application process that he typically advises students to apply to more schools than necessary in order to try and line up a good financial aid package to use as leverage at the school they really want to go to.

It's all a bargaining process. Don't forget how much money you are going to pay to go to school. Along with the fact that the school wants your money! Make THEM beg for it.

[RF237]

I would also say yes, bargain your heart out. I've had my potential adviser at one school I've been accepted at strongly encouraging me to negotiate when I've gotten funding info from everyone and saying that he'd help. They expect it, and if they really want you, they'll go to bat.

[liszt85]

Well, I guess then that Northwestern really doesn't want me then, because they said "There's absolutely no possibility for additional funds" to my query. :|

[polisci09]

I finally gathered up the courage to send my "more please!" email. The wait to hear back is almost as nerve wracking as waiting for decisions!

[anyli_t]

Well, I guess then that Northwestern really doesn't want me then, because they said "There's absolutely no possibility for additional funds" to my query. :|

I wouldn't worry too much about that. Many programs (and I think NWU linguistics is one such program, if I remember correctly) give everybody the exact same package, so as to avoid competition between students for money. I'd imagine those schools resist chances to bargain up, so as to keep all the students on a level playing ground. (This is speculation, but it makes sense to my mind.) In addition, some places really just *don't* have more money available.

Anyway, what that means is that they definitely do want you, because they accepted you! It might be a tough fit monetarily, but don't think of your finances as tied to your worth in the department in a program like that.

[liszt85]

I guess.. He had initially told me that as much as they want me to come, they understand that I'd have to respect external constraints. Then he again sent me an email:

Dear liszt85,

One last message before I leave town. I re-read your message several times, thinking about the amount of money you've calculated would be available.

On deeper reflection, this amount of money is clearly insufficient to support two people. This is not surprising, as the stipend is meant to provide modest support to a single individual.

I would strongly recommend that you do not try to support yourself and your wife on our stipend. It will not be a good situation for either of you. If this prevents you from coming to our program, I do believe that's for the best.

Thanks again for your compliments on our program, but it is critical that these other factors be taken into account.

best

So I think that was a frank evaluation of the situation that he gave me so that I could make a well informed choice. NU has been thoroughly professional and was one of my top choices. I have to however arrange for some personal funds if I'm to make this work. Mom's very generously trying to sell off some ancestral property to help me with this! I'm also awaiting a funding decision from OSU and McMaster. Hope one of them offers me a slightly better financial deal.

[40404]

I got into a school but the letter mentioned I was not chosen for financial aid. I emailed the admissions councilor and she advises I email the program director. You think that's a good idea? I would like to try and I don't think it will cause harm since I already am admitted anyway....

[Reinventing]

I think you should do what he/she suggested, maybe explain that so-and-so suggested you contact him/her in the e-mail you write to the director.

Both my letters had no word about funding. One department has already directed me to scrounge, the other will probably do so soon. It's log-in, click, refresh until that point. Not so motivating.

[emmyphil]

I received a scholarship for 80% of tuition from the school of my dreams. However, I still will need to take out at least 20,000 a year to pay for fees and living expenses... Should I ask for more money or do I just need to eat my ramen and shut up?

[sonnyday]

Well, I guess then that Northwestern really doesn't want me then, because they said "There's absolutely no possibility for additional funds" to my query. :|

I couldn't help but feel the same way. I tried negotiating a bit for a higher stipend, to no avail. The response seem to be along the lines of "the other schools offer is so much better, there is no way we can compete, so why bother? Sorry."

I'm not sure if that means "No" outright or what, but the unwillingness to even come up a little is enlightening yet disheartening for me (I was set on choosing them before I realized that the funding would take a lot to stretch). I was also in a position like the OP: having one school with a great package, but lacking a little in other areas while the other is better (with a higher ranking) but has a very low stipend.

I don't want finances to control my decision, but then again I don't want to have to struggle either. And I get the feeling I would be with the package I was given. Both are great schools (that's what makes it so hard!) too.

*sigh...* :-(

[rising_star]

I couldn't help but feel the same way. I tried negotiating a bit for a higher stipend, to no avail. The response seem to be along the lines of "the other schools offer is so much better, there is no way we can compete, so why bother? Sorry."

I'm not sure if that means "No" outright or what, but the unwillingness to even come up a little is enlightening yet disheartening for me (I was set on choosing them before I realized that the funding would take a lot to stretch).

FWIW, a lot of schools aren't in the position to negotiate because they're seeing their budgets cut, their endowments fall, etc. That doesn't mean that they are unwilling though. It likely means that they looked into it before replying to you and they actually can not. I don't understand why people take this personally (unless you invented these credit-default swaps, in which case a lot of this is your fault). You're interpreting unwillingness without even knowing if the school tried behind the scenes. For example, my department cannot compete with people getting offered $2-3K more than our stipends. I mean, we could but it's our policy to pay all students the same, not to mention that the money would have to come out of someone else's stipend. Why? Because we're doing everything we can just to stay around at a University that's majorly in the hole. And we aren't the only university in this position.

If you want to let money make your decision, that's up to you. Money isn't everything. Having an advisor with connections to people you need to know, with experience getting grants and helping students get grants, and invested in your education is far more important than whether you have to take out a couple thousand in loans each year so you can live more comfortably.

[liszt85]

If you want to let money make your decision, that's up to you. Money isn't everything. Having an advisor with connections to people you need to know, with experience getting grants and helping students get grants, and invested in your education is far more important than whether you have to take out a couple thousand in loans each year so you can live more comfortably.

I'm sure you're quite proud of yourself for the decision you made to let go of the higher financial offer. Some of us are not quite in that enviable position. It is not because we want to live a luxurious life. I am 23, going to be newly married and in grad school, supporting my wife on my stipend alone (as she would be on a F2 visa that strictly forbids her from working). $1500 per month in Chicago may be enough to live a REALLY frugal life in Chicago (after the $800-900 I'd pay for a 1BR apartment in one of the cheaper, shadier areas) but what happens if say one of us has to go see a doctor and have to pay some cash up front? We won't even have enough for that.. sometimes a reimbursement from the insurance comes much later. There are issues that some people have to worry about that may be non-issues for other people. So its not fair to preach "money isn't everything" to other prospective grad students. Taking a loan is not an option for me for various different reasons (my family's annual income is about $6000 (India)). I do know that investing in my education is a good idea (who wouldn't think so?) but like I said, I'm not in this all by myself. Its quite irritating to see insensitive comments like "If you want to let money make your decision, that's up to you. Personally, I turned down.."

[rising_star]

I'm sure you're quite proud of yourself for the decision you made to let go of the higher financial offer. Some of us are not quite in that enviable position. It is not because we want to live a luxurious life.

Let's just be clear. I'm not saying that anyone should be proud of me. I'm saying that I did what made the most sense professionally, rather than solely looking at stipend amounts and using that to decide. I don't think anyone should jeopardize their career just to have a few thousand more to live on for a few years. I'd rather prepare myself to be the best scholar I can be and do all I can to put myself in a position to get a job I want when I finish, and have some student loans, rather than have none and possibly be in a worse position 4 years from now when I apply for a job.

[sonnyday]

FWIW, a lot of schools aren't in the position to negotiate because they're seeing their budgets cut, their endowments fall, etc. That doesn't mean that they are unwilling though. It likely means that they looked into it before replying to you and they actually can not. I don't understand why people take this personally (unless you invented these credit-default swaps, in which case a lot of this is your fault). You're interpreting unwillingness without even knowing if the school tried behind the scenes. For example, my department cannot compete with people getting offered $2-3K more than our stipends. I mean, we could but it's our policy to pay all students the same, not to mention that the money would have to come out of someone else's stipend. Why? Because we're doing everything we can just to stay around at a University that's majorly in the hole. And we aren't the only university in this position.

If you want to let money make your decision, that's up to you. Money isn't everything. Having an advisor with connections to people you need to know, with experience getting grants and helping students get grants, and invested in your education is far more important than whether you have to take out a couple thousand in loans each year so you can live more comfortably.

While I understand your POV, I'm a little tired of hearing this same response whenever someone mentions a need for more funding. You have a great understanding of the University's perspective, but not a good one of other people that are different from you, or even an acknowledgement that we all come from different backgrounds.

Unwillingness on their part is no different than not being able to. Either way, a school is unwilling to negotiate. There is no way for me to know what happened behind the scenes, as according to the school's response, nothing happened (if so it would be in their interest to say so). And I am left to make this decision in light of that. Its great that you were able to give up so much money for school, that clearly was doable and workable for YOU, and hopefully it will pay off. But not everyone is in the same boat.

Believe me, I have had ample experience living on much less than most and less than the stipend actually, and have no problem managing my finances. I doubt there is any amount of stretching left that I could do that could "amaze" me. This experience is why I am trying to AVOID ever doing this again, especially while working and studying for 5+ more years of my life. I am married (we are both applying for Ph.D programs) and also have plans to have children (and I don't plan on putting them off any longer while struggling). We've sacrificed the health care, the leisure time, worked full-time while attending school, took turns supporting each other while spending more years in school... it is NOT cute, nor is it a badge of honor.

During campus visits, I talked to a few graduate students about how they live off of their stipends. The typical response: yeah, its low but if you find a roommate, and eat ramen you'll be fine. Many have parents and family to back them up if they fall, no debt, no children/spouse to support, and all sorts of "cushioning" so to speak. Although uniform stipends/funding seems fair, to pretend that those with a wealthy/middle class background (as most grad students are) don't have an advantage over those without is a little offensive.

Anyway, the lack of funding is a bummer and I have a right to be bummed.

I'm saying that I did what made the most sense professionally, rather than solely looking at stipend amounts and using that to decide. I don't think anyone should jeopardize their career just to have a few thousand more to live on for a few years.... I'd rather prepare myself to be the best scholar I can be and do all I can to put myself in a position to get a job I want when I finish, and have some student loans, rather than have none and possibly be in a worse position 4 years from now when I apply for a job.

Wow, I'm surprised you've made so many assumptions about other people's choices. BTW, it might help you to know that both schools are very good (there is no one advisor that's much better than the others), and if money was my only deciding factor, I would have instantly rejected the lower one. I think that to NOT try and ask for more funding when you need it would be stupid. While I don't blame them if they don't have any more funds, or if I am not as competitive as those students who they've offered fellowships (the funding is not equal across the board), I'm going to do what's in my own interests. That only makes sense, right? And I'd say not having to work during school and stress out over finances also helps to make one the best scholar they can be.

[belowthree]

I also hope you won't be required to take an EQ test when you apply for jobs. I suspect you'll be a tad under-prepared.

And here I thought faculty candidates got more points for scoring lower on EQ tests! You learn something new every day...

(No, I really don't have an opinion on this thread, I'm just butting into your argument to provide some humor that's in poor taste but might serve to provide a break in the conversation anyways.)

[glasses]

Didn't you hear the man? He has medical bills too!

Seriously?

Wait . . . seriously?

I guess that the sad truth of any forum is that someone invariably turns any discussion into a who-hurts-worse contest. I completely sympathize with people who want larger financial packages for whatever reason--money's not everything, it's true, but having enough to get by relatively comfortably (i.e., fed, housed, so on, so forth, with adequate supply of whatever helps you get through the day) makes a great deal of difference regarding quality of life. I hear you.

But, rising_star makes a great point--and I do agree with him. (Or her--I don't know, I'm new to this forum, though I've lurked for a while!) It simply may not be feasible from the university standpoint, forcing us to pull other stunts to get enough money to live off of or somehow make do, which is something that many of us are familiar with. People who share rising_star's opinion don't necessarily have mommies and daddies to bail them out--I certainly don't, having become a legal independent when I was fifteen--and are certainly not necessarily single--a partner of five years, two cats, and a dog is a hell of a lot of mouths to feed. No cushions: I'm flat-out lower class, way below the poverty line, and none of this is to say that I have it "worse" than anyone or don't "understand" why someone would want--or even need--more money. Rising_star's reminding us that it's a long-term game, which of course we all know, given that we're gearing up for almost a decade of study to get the degree we're pitching for in the first place, and then some to get where we want to get with that degree.

[liszt85]

And here I thought faculty candidates got more points for scoring lower on EQ tests! You learn something new every day...

Oh yea, you're right! I stand corrected.

[liszt85]

But, rising_star makes a great point--and I do agree with him. (Or her--I don't know, I'm new to this forum, though I've lurked for a while!) It simply may not be feasible from the university standpoint, forcing us to pull other stunts to get enough money to live off of or somehow make do, which is something that many of us are familiar with. People who share rising_star's opinion don't necessarily have mommies and daddies to bail them out--I certainly don't, having become a legal independent when I was fifteen--and are certainly not necessarily single--a partner of five years, two cats, and a dog is a hell of a lot of mouths to feed. No cushions: I'm flat-out lower class, way below the poverty line, and none of this is to say that I have it "worse" than anyone or don't "understand" why someone would want--or even need--more money. Rising_star's reminding us that it's a long-term game, which of course we all know, given that we're gearing up for almost a decade of study to get the degree we're pitching for in the first place, and then some to get where we want to get with that degree.

Like sonnyday said, we were not comparing places like Harvard and some community college. We were comparing places that were more or less equal (with obvious little differences) research fits (or else we wouldn't have applied in the first place). Now as much as you talk about long term prospects, its important for some of us to be relatively free of financial trouble, especially in a foreign land, so that we can concentrate on our work. It doesn't help if I have to have worries at the back of my mind about how much I'd have to spend on groceries or how I'd manage in case we accidentally have a baby (we do not believe in abortions and I do not expect somebody to come here and preach me about that) while working on a research problem. Though you have been a legal independent since the age of 15, you do have people in the country you can turn to in times of deep trouble, don't you? Would you have to turn to the streets if you violate terms of a lease because you were short by $100 in one particular month? Do you have friends from whom you can borrow a few hundred bucks to pay unexpectedly for hospital bills for which you simply don't have the savings to fall back on?

So no, I don't agree the least bit with rising star's ignorant generalization. I am passionate about my subject too and am not a moron not to wish to study at the best possible place (solely academic considerations).

[TulipOHare]

Though you have been a legal independent since the age of 15, you do have people in the country you can turn to in times of deep trouble, don't you? ... Do you have friends from whom you can borrow a few hundred bucks to pay unexpectedly for hospital bills for which you simply don't have the savings to fall back on?

Maybe not. Why would he? (I get the point you were trying to make with the lease example, but U.S. law provides some hedges against that particular situation; PM if you want details.)

I guess that the sad truth of any forum is that someone invariably turns any discussion into a who-hurts-worse contest.

Yup. Call me ignorant and overprivileged (and pay off my heap of loans from undergrad while you're at it), but I am really not getting what the fight is about. Far as I can tell, rising_star said "sometimes schools really just don't have money" and "I think it's worth sacrificing money for a career boost," and people heard "I'm rich and I have it easy, so I say you're all idiots for not putting yourselves a zillion bucks in debt to go to the best school you got into."

[sonnyday]

Seriously?

Wait . . . seriously?

I guess that the sad truth of any forum is that someone invariably turns any discussion into a who-hurts-worse contest. I completely sympathize with people who want larger financial packages for whatever reason--money's not everything, it's true, but having enough to get by relatively comfortably (i.e., fed, housed, so on, so forth, with adequate supply of whatever helps you get through the day) makes a great deal of difference regarding quality of life. I hear you.

But, rising_star makes a great point--and I do agree with him. (Or her--I don't know, I'm new to this forum, though I've lurked for a while!) It simply may not be feasible from the university standpoint, forcing us to pull other stunts to get enough money to live off of or somehow make do, which is something that many of us are familiar with. People who share rising_star's opinion don't necessarily have mommies and daddies to bail them out--I certainly don't, having become a legal independent when I was fifteen--and are certainly not necessarily single--a partner of five years, two cats, and a dog is a hell of a lot of mouths to feed. No cushions: I'm flat-out lower class, way below the poverty line, and none of this is to say that I have it "worse" than anyone or don't "understand" why someone would want--or even need--more money. Rising_star's reminding us that it's a long-term game, which of course we all know, given that we're gearing up for almost a decade of study to get the degree we're pitching for in the first place, and then some to get where we want to get with that degree.

Definitely no contest, but unless I state that fact, some will assume that I am some spoiled person who doesn't know how much they really need and asks for too much. I assume you didn't want to come off that way either, hence your need to state your background and experiences feeding your cats and dogs. I don't think you're trying to fight for who's who of the most poor, but I acknowledge your experiences.

The problem is that rising did not need to remind us of any of this in the way that it was done, without even knowing enough about the schools we are choosing from, our background, etc. I wasn't saying that you or rising had cushions, but pointing it out that some do and some don't, and it makes perfect sense for those that don't to at least try and negotiate for what's best for them. I completely agree that money isn't everything, that there are long-term decisions and sacrifices to make, blah, blah. We are all adults and most of us understand these difficulties, else we wouldn't be agonizing over the decision for school and spending hours refreshing this forum (yes, I admit, I am pathetically addicted )

The condescending tone of this quote was the problem. Especially the bolded part. Up until that, everything rising said was fine and understandable:

If you want to let money make your decision, that's up to you. Personally, I turned down a lower cost of living and $5K more/year to work with the best possible mentor that I could. Money isn't everything. Having an advisor with connections to people you need to know, with experience getting grants and helping students get grants, and invested in your education is far more important than whether you have to take out a couple thousand in loans each year so you can live more comfortably.

P.S. I think people would be amazed at how little you can live on if you try. I actually live on less than what I make on my stipend, and it's not like I've got one of those huge stipends that you see in the sciences.

Funny, I assumed rising was a woman.

[liszt85]

The problem is that rising did not need to remind us of any of this in the way that it was done, without even knowing enough about the schools we are choosing from, our background, etc. I wasn't saying that you or rising had cushions, but pointing it out that some do and some don't, and it makes perfect sense for those that don't to at least try and negotiate for what's best for them. I completely agree that money isn't everything, that there are long-term decisions and sacrifices to make, blah, blah. We are all adults and most of us understand these difficulties, else we wouldn't be agonizing over the decision for school and spending hours refreshing this forum (yes, I admit, I am pathetically addicted )

The condescending tone of this quote was the problem. Especially the bolded part. Up until that, everything rising said was fine and understandable:

P.S. I think people would be amazed at how little you can live on if you try. I actually live on less than what I make on my stipend, and it's not like I've got one of those huge stipends that you see in the sciences.

Funny, I assumed rising was a woman.

[Reinventing]

I think it's a very different year--it may be fair for someone to respond to this, "if you love it, take it." They may just be trying to keep you from making what they might see as a mistake. Of course, every story is more complicated, and it can be hard to get advice from someone who doesn't seem to understand your situation.

I found the arguments made here somewhat like the discussion that goes on in my head.

1) To go, and go with far less funding than I had hoped for (also applied to schools well known for funding)--or

2) To not go, and deal with the realities of what that will mean for me (like a career change, and feelings of resentment)

I know my situation is more extreme because it's "go" or "not go," but I've still had a few people who've advised me to just go for what I want, regardless of the financial element. Do I bristle at that advice? Absolutely. (I also have no fallback cushion.) But then, I feel so dark and downtrodden when I think of all the unwanted changes I'll have to make if I don't go. There's no easy answer.

As for advice on asking for more money, I think that's all you can do is ask for it; but I think this year, if we get turned down for these kinds of things, I don't think we can take it as a reflection on how far they're willing to go for us--because it is a very different year. Many departments are looking at cuts to their operations and staff, so they may feel strongly for us, but can't do much to help.

But you do absolutely have the right to be bummed. It stinks.

[sonnyday]

As for advice on asking for more money, I think that's all you can do is ask for it; but I think this year, if we get turned down for these kinds of things, I don't think we can take it as a reflection on how far they're willing to go for us--because it is a very different year. Many departments are looking at cuts to their operations and staff, so they may feel strongly for us, but can't do much to help.

But you do absolutely have the right to be bummed. It stinks.

Sadly, this is probably very true for many schools. I guess it would help if they conveyed that to students though, because I've heard from too many faculty (including faculty at the exact school I was trying to bargain with--a person on the adcom) that I should try to negotiate and that they can be flexible in the long run.