Established Professor vs. New One

[msphdhopeful]

Hey guys....There are two schools that I'm choosing from mainly because of the great research match. One school has a really established professor in the field, the other a younger, newer, but very promising, and already regarded brilliant by fellow faculty and grad students.

I'm not sure which professor could give me better training or if this even matters. I have received advice both ways. Some say the established professor has more experience with mentoring students, more publications etc, and therefore has more clout. It probably sounds crass but I will probably have an easier chance getting publications with him. Some say the other because this professor is young and will be more productive because she needs to get tenure, etc. They also say that she can relate to me better and is still fresh and excited.

Anyone else dealing with the same tough choice? Any advice?

[socialpsych]

The danger with the new one is that she might end up moving. Try to feel out whether she is likely to stay for the duration of your degree--maybe by asking current grad students?

From what I have heard, the best thing is to have multiple professors you want to work with, and if possible a combination of younger and older. Is there another prof at either school who offsets the academic age of your main POI for that school, whom you'd also like to work with? I think that would be an important thing to consider.

Also, have you visited both schools? Asked advisees of each prof how they like working with that prof?

[msphdhopeful]

So far I've only visited one school, the one with the younger prof. I do have intersecting interests with several other faculty, 2 of which are also new and 1 who will pretty much retire there. I feel like this is too blunt of a question to ask the prof whether or not she will be staying the next 4 or 5 years...I'm not sure how to go about asking her.

[Andorin]

I was just sat around googling for opinions on this matter, as I've got the same problem. You talk to the famous guy, and he sits there throwing big names at you, saying that he can introduce you to these people, and set you up doing collaborative research with them. Then there is the junior professor... when I first encountered his work I was stunned because it was exactly what I wanted to be doing, and no one else in the world was doing it quite the same way. It is a really hard call to make, but I am leaning towards the side of the famous guy.

Anyone able to make a cogent argument for chosing the little guy?

[ewurgler]

For the new one: does he/she have tenure? If she does, and has had it for 1+ years, they are most likely sticking around. If they don't have tenure and your program is great but not very top, they may end up moving.

FOr the older one: how old? Is there a chance they will retire in the next 4-5 years?

FOr me, I prefer younger ones who are energetic, want a "protege," aren't jaded and/or sick of advising, and are still in their most productive years. The ideal time would be soon after they get tenure, as they are secure, not so crazily busy, and can now focus on mentoring.

[t_ruth]

I'll be facing a similar decision. My area of focus is pretty small though, so most Universities only have one prof working on it...

I have no problem asking the young/newer one(s) if they plan on sticking around. I've also heard of professors taking graduate students with them if/when they move...does this really happen?

[UnlikelyGrad]

I would go with the little guy. Admittedly, it is a bit of a risk, as you may end up losing an advisor if he doesn't get tenure.

My current PI is a "little guy"--in his very first year as a professor. The nice thing about working for him is that he hasn't established much of a group yet (unlike some tenured professors who have 10 students--at my school--and 20+, as I've seen in big-name schools). So I get most of his attention. Lots of hands-on training, lots of time to chat--he's been very helpful in guiding me through the admissions process, etc. I can't imagine an established professor with lots of students ever knowing me as well as my current PI knows me.

I'm afraid that working with my PI has spoiled me. I don't know what I 'd do in a big group.

[socialpsych]

I have no problem asking the young/newer one(s) if they plan on sticking around. I've also heard of professors taking graduate students with them if/when they move...does this really happen?

Yeah, it does--I know multiple cases where it's happened.

Also, OP, if you don't want to ask the prof directly (although it's a fine question to ask), you can also, as I suggested, ask the grad students.

Andorin, here is an argument for choosing the little guy: that person might be a better connection in the long term if his/her work is really viewed as up-and-coming. Careers depend (to an unfortunate degree) on what is trendy in the field, and to the degree that the more established prof's work may be viewed as passe in a few years, it may be better to jump on the new-and-hip train.

[psycholinguist]

I'm in a similar position for one of the schools I applied to; I'm leaning towards the newbie, though, since his interests correspond better to mine than the more-established professors' all do.

[MacDuff]

In addition to what the other posters have said, I'll also add in that you may want to find out if the younger prof is married and whether her spouse is also employed by the university. This seems to be a more common occurence in our field, where there are several husband-wife professors working at the same school. The relationship pairs tend to move around less. Another advantage to working with a younger prof. is she will be more familiar with, and able to offer assistance with, statistical modeling. And, it's unlikely she'll be entrenched in the inevitable department politics.

The pros of working with a more senior professor have been noted by earlier posters so I won't comment further.

GL with your decision and congrats on your acceptances!

[msphdhopeful]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice....I guess I should wait to until visiting weekend at the other school (w/ senior prof) and then make a list of pros and cons...Thanks again!

[dysmetria]

If the newer one is that brilliant, he will likely get recruited to another school before you have the chance to finish your dissertation. This is not a dealbreaker, but I would go with someone more established.

[flyinglion]

oh...I met the similar situation...

and the young prof happened to be the senior's student years ago!

[pikatopia]

oh...I met the similar situation...

and the young prof happened to be the senior's student years ago!

Same here! And the Senior's U is saying to me, "Why study with the student, when you could work with the real deal?"

It's a pretty compelling argument...(at least for me!)

[rising_star]

I think what matters most is who will give you the attention, mentorship, and professional guidance you need.

[twocosmicfish]

It is a hard one to answer - the young one is more likely to be doing cutting-edge kind of stuff, but the older one has the network and system already established. The younger one has more risk but potentially more pay-off if he hits big and you are one of his first real students. With the older one it will be easier and less risky, but also harder to stand out.

One quick note: older PI's tend to take a slow approach - they are often in no rush to see a well-trained grad student graduate. A young professor usually has six years from hire to prove himself for tenure - one of the criteria for which is the number of grad students mentored. I know a few PhD's who got through quickly (3-4 years) and well under the new guy, and a few who went 7-8 years under the more experienced prof.

[flyinglion]

I think what matters most is who will give you the attention, mentorship, and professional guidance you need.

it depends... the potential advisor from a third univ told me that, "if u go with prof.* (the senior one, authority in the field), being his student will make a difference in your life! but maybe he will have a lab of big size and he will be busy, so u are just receving guide from the post-doc there"

so that's the trade-off.

[socialpsych]

Something that reminded me of this thread: at a school visit day, the prof giving the welcome speech highlighted the presence of several active junior faculty as one of the program's biggest draws.

Also, I was talking to a different prof about a particular department and the prof said he thought it wouldn't be a great place to go for grad school because there were too many old famous researchers who were no longer doing anything new or interesting.

[doctoraldude]

it also depends on what you want from the program - if you already have some research ideas and need the guidance to see them through- then maybe the senior advisor is the better bet (say, to get you on the right methodological track, without actually micromanaging you ).

on the other hand, if you want to be closely mentored through the entire research process - then maybe the junior publication-machine prof would provide you with better opportunities to participate in his/her research agenda

from what i have gathered from existing grad students, i guess there's no 'absolutely-right-type' of professor out there ... each has tradeoffs based on what you're looking for :?

[t_ruth]

Just wanted to update. I asked a couple of younger/assistant profs about their future plans. They didn't seem offended at all by the question and gave me a number of reasons as to why they plan to stay where they are (all reasons made sense to me).

I'm excited about the prospect of the greater attention from being one of only a few students working with a professor, but will be talking with one of the more experienced professors I'm considering later this week and will let you know how I feel after that