How Bad is an A-?

[DontHate]

I don't think any of my grades are awarded based on points. I'm in seminars, and my papers are what determine my grade. They're just given letters.

[JosephineB]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="DontHate" data-cid="1057888216" data-time="1356046797"><p>

I don't think any of my grades are awarded based on points. I'm in seminars, and my papers are what determine my grade. They're just given letters.</p></blockquote>

?

GPA stands for "grade point average." You don't get a gpa at your school?

Edited December 21, 2012 by JosephineBeuys

[DontHate]

Each letter grade corresponds to a point on the scale. A = 4.0, A- = 3.7 etc

[delimitude]

Psh. Especially if you're in a PhD program already, just be sure to maintain your mandated minimum GPA (so as to avoid losing your fellowship, assistantship, place in the program, etc.). If you're in an MA, I wouldn't sweat it. Statement of purpose and writing sample are going to mean more than the quantitative measures (at least at schools that know how to properly invest in their future). Of course, grades lower than an A are often thought to be "indicators," but a grade in a seminar is a piss-poor way of determining your potential future in academia. 

[bfat]

At my school, what constitutes a letter grade in terms of percentage is set by the instructor. For example, I took a French course with one professor who set 92 as an A (with 90-91 as an A-), and another who set 96 as an A. The difficulty of earning certain grades varies enormously between departments and colleges. I now work in the Registrar's Office, so I see the finishing GPAs for grads and undergrads, and they actually had to restructure the honors system for undergrads because so many people in the College of Education had a 4.0, and it was unfair to students in other majors (they were never earning honors, despite the fact that their programs were obviously more rigorous). In the grad programs, nearly everyone in the College of Ed has a 4.0 (seriously, I ran the numbers once for one of the programs and it was like 84% of students). In the sciences, however, the average GPA is closer to 3.5. In Humanities/arts, I'd say it's closer to about 3.7.

[wildviolet]

Here is the way grades work at my institution (granted, I just finished the first semester of my PhD program):

 

1. You get a 4.0 in the course unless you are not making satisfactory progress.

 

I suppose this is one of the official ways your quality of work in the program is evaluated. In one of my courses this semester, the professor gave me the lowest 4.0 possible on all my assignments, so I ended up with a 4.0. What mattered were the comments she made on my papers showing me how to improve my writing. In my other course this semester, I received 3.5s on all my assignments leading up to the final paper. I got a 4.0 on the final paper, and my professor gave me a 4.0. So... she clearly didn't calculate my grade based on the percentages in the course syllabus. If so, I would have received a 3.5. My conclusion, therefore, is that she gave me an overall grade for where I ended up in the course (which is still not great in the grand scheme of things, but I suppose is satisfactory for a first-year PhD student).

 

2. If you are making satisfactory progress and you get all 4.0s (and everyone else gets 4.0s), then grades don't matter.

 

So what matters? Research, teaching, writing, presentation skills, teamwork skills, technical skills, strength of methodology, creativity, originality, perseverance, flexibility, determination, and congeniality (to some extent; some people can be assholes and still considered excellent scholars).

[anti]

I've been lead to believe that GPA doesn't mean a whole lot in graduate school.

I have a couple of A-'s. I also have a B+, you guys! It was from my first semester, when I came to my MA program as an MFA student and had pretty much never read literary theory, and I took a pretty difficult professor - since then, I got an A in another of his classes and he is my thesis advisor. I do not worry about that B+ because I learned so much in that class. I've also chosen to take courses with notoriously difficult graders as I tend to learn the most from them. There are some courses of 15ish people where a professor gives out almost all As, and there are other classes of this size where a professor gives out 0-2 A's, a few A-'s, a lot of B+'s and B's, and a few grades lower. I think (hope?) that adcoms know this. There are also people who do things like check myedu.com for the easiest graders so that they can maintain a 4.0 while doing the least amount of work possible. I'll pass on that strategy. My grades of less than A have (in most cases) come with excellent professor feedback that has made me a better writer, scholar, researcher, everything. I am not grade-focused or status-hungry. Also, I don't know anyone in my program with a 4.0, though I imagine there are a few. Grade inflation isn't that common here.

I am also concerned about this topic. I am in my first semester as a PhD English, creative dissertation student after coming from an MFA. I received a B in a seminar course, which I expected and felt I deserved. As creative writing students, we're never taught how to write a graduate level academic paper (nor many other skills, but that's a different conversation) so this course was the greatest challenge I've ever encountered as a graduate student. I'm concern about receiving a B, but at the same time, I'm not sure what more I can do about it other than use this as a learning experience on how to better my academic writing. I also received this grade from a hard professor, who told another first year PhD (while she was an MA at this school) that her thesis wasn't a thesis because it was "too long".

 

I think many graduate students fail to realize/remember that many ivy league universities curve their students grades, which I know for a fact. Because many of these students thrive on the expectation of always getting A's, many are shocked at the thought that a graduate student might ever receive anything less. But it happens, especially from mid-range state schools where there is no curve involved and the teaching loads are higher. As a creative writing student, I'm forced to deal with the fact that I wasn't prepared by my masters for doctoral level work in the same ways that my lit/rhetcomp peers were, and for me a B is just part of the learning process.

Edited December 22, 2012 by anti

[asleepawake]

I am also concerned about this topic. I am in my first semester as a PhD English, creative dissertation student after coming from an MFA. I received a B in a seminar course, which I expected and felt I deserved. As creative writing students, we're never taught how to write a graduate level academic paper (nor many other skills, but that's a different conversation) so this course was the greatest challenge I've ever encountered as a graduate student. I'm concern about receiving a B, but at the same time, I'm not sure what more I can do about it other than use this as a learning experience on how to better my academic writing. I also received this grade from a hard professor, who told another first year PhD (while she was an MA at this school) that her thesis wasn't a thesis because it was "too long".

 

I think many graduate students fail to realize/remember that many ivy league universities curve their students grades, which I know for a fact. Because many of these students thrive on the expectation of always getting A's, many are shocked at the thought that a graduate student might ever receive anything less. But it happens, especially from mid-range state schools where there is no curve involved and the teaching loads are higher. As a creative writing student, I'm forced to deal with the fact that I wasn't prepared by my masters for doctoral level work in the same ways that my lit/rhetcomp peers were, and for me a B is just part of the learning process.

 

I was lucky enough to attend an MFA program that was pretty lit-heavy. That helped me to realize quickly that although I continue to enjoy writing creative work, I do not want it to be the focus of my scholarship. If you attended an MFA that was studio-based, it must be jarring to suddenly have these kinds of classes as a PhD student. However, keep in mind that it is your first semester, and, honestly, most of the jobs available to you will involve teaching creative writing and craft, so you will hopefully not suffer too much if your seminar grades are not up to par with your workshop grades. At the same time, you'll be expected to be well-rounded. Do you feel you learned enough from this class that you can move beyond the B, or do you feel at a loss for what you missed?

[anti]

I was lucky enough to attend an MFA program that was pretty lit-heavy. That helped me to realize quickly that although I continue to enjoy writing creative work, I do not want it to be the focus of my scholarship. If you attended an MFA that was studio-based, it must be jarring to suddenly have these kinds of classes as a PhD student. However, keep in mind that it is your first semester, and, honestly, most of the jobs available to you will involve teaching creative writing and craft, so you will hopefully not suffer too much if your seminar grades are not up to par with your workshop grades. At the same time, you'll be expected to be well-rounded. Do you feel you learned enough from this class that you can move beyond the B, or do you feel at a loss for what you missed?

I definitely feel that I can recover from this course and this grade. It was a great learning experience and a challenge for myself, coming from the MFA and I learned a tremendous amount from this course, even though it was not in my area of interest. I very well could have taken a workshop in place of this seminar, read and commented on workshops and turned in a story and gotten an A that absolutely proved I learned nothing. But I'm so over that, it's not academically challenging nor intellectually stimulating for me anymore. I'm in this program to become well-rounded, because there are so many creative writers who are not. Hopefully, this grade does not slow me down. Thanks for the support!

[AurantiacaStella]

I'm currently in a master's program at an Ivy, and this is what a PhD classmate of mine told me that grades mean here, at least in grad seminars.

 

A = excellent, outstanding, publishable work

A- = good work, meets all basic expectations for a course without really exceeding them

B+ = OK work, but not up to standard; be careful and don't get another one

B = this is cause to be concerned and you should talk seriously with your professor about how to improve your performace

B- = GTFO of the program

 

Obviously, this varies among different types of schools (and among professors), but this is what I've been told about grading at a top program. I am sure AdComs are familiar with the differences between grading at different programs.

 

 

I don't think any of my grades are awarded based on points. I'm in seminars, and my papers are what determine my grade. They're just given letters.

 

Also, totally agree with DontHate. For all of my grad classes, I have NO IDEA what my number grade was. In language courses, I've received number grades for exams, but for the papers in those and other classes, I've only ever received a letter grade.

[Swagato]

I'm currently in a master's program at an Ivy, and this is what a PhD classmate of mine told me that grades mean here, at least in grad seminars.

 

A = excellent, outstanding, publishable work

A- = good work, meets all basic expectations for a course without really exceeding them

B+ = OK work, but not up to standard; be careful and don't get another one

B = this is cause to be concerned and you should talk seriously with your professor about how to improve your performace

B- = GTFO of the program

 

Obviously, this varies among different types of schools (and among professors), but this is what I've been told about grading at a top program. I am sure AdComs are familiar with the differences between grading at different programs.

 

 

 

Also, totally agree with DontHate. For all of my grad classes, I have NO IDEA what my number grade was. In language courses, I've received number grades for exams, but for the papers in those and other classes, I've only ever received a letter grade.

 

Here's hoping adcoms are aware of the difficult, even slightly deflated grading at Chicago...

[DontHate]

Here's hoping adcoms are aware of the difficult, even slightly deflated grading at Chicago...

 

I'm sure they are familiar with Chicago. You can't possibly be the first applicant from Chicago that they'll be seeing.

[Swagato]

I didn't exactly imply that I'm the first applicant from Chicago in my field. I expressed my hopes that they are aware that Chicago's grades tend to be harder-earned in comparison to grades at most other places.

[waparys]

Couldn't this be said of other top-tier schools? I've pointed this out before, but I'm pretty sure a lower GPA at a good school can be higher than a 4.0 at a lower-ranked school.

[bluecheese]

All of this stuff about Chicago sounds annoying. I do know some people who attended the MAPH (? is that the acronym?) program and they never explicitly complained about the grading. I'll ask people about programs again, should I (by some chance of luck) get in. 

 

My experience at a "public ivy" has been that the grading between courses is very dependent upon the whims of the professors. I know someone who got an A- after crying in front of a professor who was threatening to give them a B. I was in a seminar where half of the people didn't write the final paper, and the professor gave everyone an A. I've been in classes with grades that are given after a page of typed explanation (I received an A- on the paper, but I received an A on another assignment... so it worked out). I've been in classes where students have just received a B when the end of the semester came around (with little to no explanation).

 

I have a 4.0 GPA from my graduate education, but I can surely see someone with A- grades being fine. Even someone one or two B grades. Honestly, this stuff ultimately has little to do with publication and teaching. Classes are often unpleasant meat grinders filled with raging egos.

[Swagato]

bluecheese: I'm definitely not *complaining* about the grading. It's just basically true that grading *is* tougher there, and I'm sure the same applies for several other places. What I was expressing was the hope that adcoms are aware of this and take such things into account. I'm sure they do, but then again, most of the debates we're having here are over issues adcoms undoubtedly have a way of resolving.

 

That being said, of course it is true that a lot depends on the whims of various professors--this was true at Chicago too. And yes, all of this has little to do with actual graduate work, but rather a lot to do with getting accepted, it seems.

 

waparys: I certainly hope so!

[bluecheese]

bluecheese: I'm definitely not *complaining* about the grading. 

 

I wasn't saying that the complaining about the grading was annoying. I was saying that it sounds annoying if it is true. Sorry if there was any confusion there.

 

[waparys]

I know we've talked some about British grading on here, but how familiar do you think adcomms are with it? I saw one US school's conversion table say that 70+ was an A, 60-70 was a B, 50-60 was a C. To me this is way harsh (to use Clueless parlance). I would say 65-70 is an A-, 60-65 is a B/+, etc.

I guess I'm just worried how my graduate grades will translate. Urgh.

[DontHate]

I think they're 100% familiar with it.

[bluecheese]

Yeah, I'd assume that they are, and I'm sure that they'll be much more concerned with your statement of purpose, recommendations, and writing sample.

[waparys]

The other day I started freaking out thinking: what if my recommenders wrote really mean things? Or said I was mediocre?!

I basically panicked. This is really getting to me.

Also I wondered if it was a mistake submitting four when the application said they'd accept up to four, though only three were required.

[DontHate]

I know my recommenders wrote nice things, but I don't know if any of those things are true.

[Deadinthewater]

I have a physical recommendation letter from a professor that was meant for a school that I ended up not applying to. So now I just have it, sitting here in my room. I stare at this envelope almost constantly, dreaming about what is inside. Does it say I am the smartest human being ever? Quite possibly.

I have made a little shrine for the letter, right next to my bookshelf. I visit this shrine at least twice a day: when I wake up and before I go to sleep. It strengthens me.

If I get into my dream school, I will immediately tear this letter open and read it. If I get rejected everywhere, I will burn it....
 

[bluecheese]

Yeah, it is kind of rare for someone to write a negative recommendation.

[Swagato]

Worse than a negative recommendation is the fabled 'form letter' that makes it all too clear, between the hyperbolic superlatives, that this is completely a letter written to get rid of a pestering student.