Applying to grad school after 2yrs undergrad?

[meguca]

Hi,

 

I haven't done much research into the grad school application process. I'm definitely going to finish undergrad in two years. I'm currently in my 1st year of undergrad (but I'm *very* advanced for a 1st year student). Would it be viable to apply to graduate schools for a PhD *directly* after undergrad? Here's some basic info about me:

 

- I have two fields of interest: (1) slowing and delaying aging and the onset of aging-related diseases, especially using C. elegans as a model to explore particular ways to combat oxidative stress, and (2) applying novel stem cell-based research to combat Alzheimer's and other neurogenerative diseases. (Can go into more detail but would rather not.) I am *strongly* biased towards working on the former but I will admit that (2) has been on my mind for a while so I just thought I'd list it here as well.

- I have been working with two research groups/labs. The first one focuses on aging and the second one is a physical chemistry lab (I have done projects with EPR, studying the effects upon the anisotrophy of the g factor when the molecule possesses various functional groups/changes/etc.). Both PIs will be willing to give me a good LOR. I don't know about a 3rd LOR - is that usually required? I can definitely find one of my course instructors who will be willing to write me a good LOR, but it would definitely not be as good as the other two LORs.

- My GPA is above 3.9, my general GRE score is above 95th percentile for both verbal and math, and my GRE subject test in Biochem is above 95th percentile. Majoring in Biochemistry.

- I go to a large public state university strong in research.

- I am 18 years old and will graduate at 19 - I don't know how much graduate schools care about age.

- NO PUBLICATIONS YET, UNFORTUNATELY! But hopefully that will change next year...

 

I have been considering taking a "gap year" after I graduate but I want to get into a top PhD program ASAP for personal reasons. Would it be a waste of time for me to start thinking about applying or should I do the gap year?

 

Again: I *absolutely* do not want to waste my time applying to graduate programs if I don't have a good chance of getting into universities/departments/programs which are strong in my research interests (especially (1)) and are good/prestigious. I want to get into a HIGH-QUALITY graduate program and definitely do not want to "rush" getting into grad school and end up at some mediocre program with a PI who doesn't really care about my research. I'm just VERY curious to know if it's even worth my time applying next year or if there's ABSOLUTELY NO CHANCE that it's worth it.

 

Schools that have PIs who I would be interested in working with (I just did a cursory search, this isn't very refined): Caltech, MIT, Stanford, UC-Berkeley, UWashington, UCSF, Harvard, JHU

 

On that note - how many programs/schools do people usually apply to?

 

Thanks, everyone!

Edited January 24, 2013 by meguca

[Biohopeful]

GRE scores are good for 5 years, and I think those look great.

 

If it were me, I would take a year off and work in a laboratory to get more experience.

 

Is there any reason why you're focused on prestigious programs?  I would like to point out that just because a program isn't top 10 doesn't necessarily mean the PIs there don't care about research.  You'll be surprised at how many PIs are passionate about their research at even mid or low-tier universities.  What it comes down to is who you work with, and you'd be surprised at who you find at lesser-known universities.

 

Also, grad school admissions are more than just numbers.  There are a plethora of applications with outstanding GPA/GRE scores who get turned down for one reason or another.  You need strong LORs and a strong SOP stating your reasons for going into your field and why you want to get a PhD.  Most schools will require 3 LORs, and it looks like you have 2 strong ones already.  On that note, it wouldn't be a bad idea to take a year or two off (especially since you're still so young) to work in a lab, get more research experience, and also get a 3rd strong LOR from a PI.

 

As for the number of schools to apply to... there really isn't a set amount.  The Biological Sciences field is highly competitive, and I would suggest applying to at least 5 schools, but I have seen successful applicants who only applied to 1 or 2 schools.  It depends on your financial situation (since applications can cost anywhere between $25-$100+ depending on the school), and how many programs you would genuinely be happy to attend.  Throwing money at a university because you want to get in somewhere, but probably won't be happy in the program is a waste, really.

[cloudless_climes]

Meguca, I too graduated at 19 years of age with very similar statistics, but decided to take a gap year - mostly due to my chosen field of study (Public Policy). It wouldn't hurt to apply to graduate schools immediately if you're absolutely positive that you want to dive right into an inordinate amount of work. Gap years for science generally serve as breather years from the rigamarole of school - gaining real world perspective might not be as applicable if you're intent on doing lab work for the next seven years.

 

As for how many schools people apply to, it really varies. I applied to 3 policy schools, and one school of education at the time, as well as a few B-schools. I've seen some students apply to one school, and others apply to as many as 15. The average would probably be around seven.

 

Hope that helps.  

[meguca]

The thing about a "break" is that I've managed to do a pretty splendid job of planning out my schedule. Aside from research, here's what my 2nd and last year of school is going to look like:

 

Autumn: biochem, biochem lab, bullshit 4.0 humanities class (required)

Winter: biochem, BS 4.0 humanities

Spring: biochem: BS 4.0 humanities

 

As you can see - not exactly bad.

 

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How much money does it cost to apply to a school, on average?

 

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What about applying to my undergrad university for graduate school? The PI in my lab is a *major* rising star in his field, has *lots* of money, and is doing *very* good research - but I don't know if that's good enough to counteract the fact that a lot of people seem to dislike people who don't go to a different school for their PhD.

Edited January 24, 2013 by meguca

[DropTheBase]

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How much money does it cost to apply to a school, on average?

 

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Biohopeful basically answered this one.

 

On top of that, I'm going to recommend re-reading Biohopeful's post to let it sink in.

 

PI's want to see dependable, mature students because they are more likely to handle the stress of many years of failure. Based on your disregard for humanities classes and fixation on top 10 schools (who happen to have plenty of PI's who don't care about your research), it sounds like you could benefit from a year off to gain perspective.

[VBD]

It's unofficially encouraged to go to a different school from your undergrad so you're exposed to different, broader, and/or newer perspectives. You can gain a lot (not just publications or lab techniques) from working in a different laboratory group. 

[cloudless_climes]

Whoa there Meguca, some of us hippies still like our humanities courses ; )

 

Break could refer to both a psychological one - soul searching - or a practical one - field experience. It looks like you've found your niche and are sticking with it. That's awesome. There's no need to wait around if you're confident, and it sounds like you are. 

 

Application fees vary by school, quickly skimming some graduate program websites will indicate application fees. The PhD programs to which I'm applying this cycle have ranged from $35 to $100 (ish). 

 

If you feel as though you could do some stellar research at your undergrad institution (I'm guessing you're at an R1 school), and you've got a reputable PI, not only are your chances of acceptance infinitely higher, but there's nothing wrong with applying. Speaking for the sciences, it's not as if education ends after a PhD, there are always post-doc fellowships at other institutions etc...Also, a lot of what you do during graduate school will determine your first position, so publishing in high SJR modes, such as Cell, or Nature, will enhance your reputation and graduate school edcuation. 

[VBD]

Regina raises some points about a psychological break. I too graduated a little early (finished both my Bachelors and Masters when I was 22) and was raring to go and continue being awesome at a PhD program. But due to family circumstances, I had to take a gap year. And it gave me some time to really mature. I thought I was mature and confident and ready, but after stepping away from the rushed academia schedule I had, I realized where my true interests were, and grew up a little to the point where I can say I definitely matured a little. Granted, this is just me. I had fellow Masters classmates who were 21-22 also, and they were able to go full-steam ahead. So just take a breather and some introspection time to decide whether 5-7 years of hard-core PhD is what I want now? Or should I take a gap-year break? 

[meguca]

Note that I didn't say that humanities classes in general are BS, but rather I'm saying that I'm picking them specifically so that I choose ones that are BS. No need to misinterpret what I said as an attack on the humanities, which I respect just as much as anyone here...

 

Also - like I said in the OP - I've identified specific PIs with whom I'd like to work in the universities that I listed, and of *course* I know that there are PIs elsewhere doing good research and I know that there are many PIs at those generally prestigious universities with whom I'd like to work - and yes, I'm aware that departmental prestige matters a lot more, etc.,etc.

 

So if you're going to accuse me of being fixated on top 10 schools then I invite you to re-read my original post and cite specific parts of it which explicitly demonstrate that I am aiming for general top-10 universities because they are in the general top-10 rankings.

 

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The purpose of my gap year would be to strengthen my application for grad school.

 

Please - don't second-guess what I said and tell me to relax or do soul-searching or whatever.

 

I don't mean to be rude, and I appreciate the advice - I truly do - but I've had 18 years of soul-searching and relaxing and thinking about what I TRULY want to do thus far. I hope you can understand how irritating it can be when I'm asking for direct advice and a significant portion of the stuff that's posted is about whether or not I'm mature enough.

 

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Apologies for any rudeness or incoherence - I haven't slept in *quite* a long time, I just spent an entire night dealing with a laptop that decided to BSOD/crash 5-10 minutes after booting consistently and corrupted one of my homework assignments, I have multiple commitments to worry about today and tomorrow, and again, I am rather fatigued.

Edited January 24, 2013 by meguca

[cloudless_climes]

Meguca, I didn't mean to infuriate you by any means. In fact, that little "winky" face was meant as a slight poke back - not as accusatory. To be fair, we've all taken our fair share of BS social science, humanity, education and hard science courses. We've also all taken courses not so BS in all areas for the purpose of education and pursuit of knowledge. 

 

As far as the whole soul searching bit, VBD interpreted my remarks correctly. I'm not saying that you necessarily need to take a step back and look at your life...blah blah blah. After all, I even conceded that you seem to know exactly what path you want to take. I've stated this several times, so you're confronting contrived arguments with the fury of a woman scorned. Nobody is accusing you of lacking maturity, in fact, VBD and I both contend that you're just as mature and capable of making decisions. You're going to ultimately do what you want - I did - and that's fine. GO FOR IT and stop getting so defensive. Take the advice that's pertinent and ignore the rest. No need to attack me or any one else on this thread. I don't think anybody was intending to offend you, just offering their perspectives. 

 

[Word to anybody else who may have an inkling of a doubt in their chosen field (purposefully excluding meguca here), however, and I'm sure VBD can relate, what I wanted at 18 or 19 is different from what I want now (at 25). If I had gained perspective then, perhaps I wouldn't have rushed head first into an MPP, which while educational and enjoyable, wasn't exactly what I wanted to do with the rest of my life...or perhaps it's because of teaching, completing an MPP, doing a post-bac pre-med program, and then working in policy that I re-discovered my love for psychology.]

[Biohopeful]

Again: I *absolutely* do not want to waste my time applying to graduate programs if I don't have a good chance of getting into universities/departments/programs which are strong in my research interests (especially (1)) and are good/prestigious. I want to get into a HIGH-QUALITY graduate program and definitely do not want to "rush" getting into grad school and end up at some mediocre program with a PI who doesn't really care about my research.

 

Although you didn't explicitly state you were aiming solely for prestigious programs, you pointed out that you only want to get into a high quality program, and then proceeded to imply that mediocre programs have PIs that don't care about someone's research.  If that wasn't your intention, I apologize.

 

It appears getting into a prestigious program is secondary to complementary research interests, and I think you're on the right track with that.  Ultimately, it's going to be your decision on what you do.  Regardless of personal reasons for going into a PhD program directly from undergrad, I still think it's a good idea to take at least a year off -- not for soul-searching or that, but to help strengthen your application and make you more competitive for the programs you want to get into.  It can't hurt you; it can only help you.

 

I apologize if my wording seemed terse.  I'm not ashamed to admit that I would prefer a mid-tier program over a prestigious one, maybe it's something in my nature.  In general, I dislike seeing people who want to attend a program with the aim to have a shiny name on their diploma, but if you're considering applying to those schools (all top 10 Biological Sciences graduate programs, aside from UWashington) for interesting research, I can't blame you for that one.

 

Overall, I think your intentions are right, and you're definitely on the right track, and a great candidate as well.  I would also talk to your professors about this and get their opinions on things.  Good luck with your computer issues, and I hope you get things figured out!

Edited January 24, 2013 by Biohopeful

[VBD]

The purpose of my gap year would be to strengthen my application for grad school.

 

Please - don't second-guess what I said and tell me to relax or do soul-searching or whatever.

 

I don't mean to be rude, and I appreciate the advice - I truly do - but I've had 18 years of soul-searching and relaxing and thinking about what I TRULY want to do thus far. I hope you can understand how irritating it can be when I'm asking for direct advice and a significant portion of the stuff that's posted is about whether or not I'm mature enough.

Firstly, thanks Regina. You basically took the words out of my mouth. [Regina, I definitely didn't picture myself down this path. I walked off the beaten path xD No regrets though!]

Meg, the part that I highlighted will be a good point to raise during interviews for PhD programs, because I definitely did get questions about my age. Is it fair? No. But it could happen. So I can cite that from this, you are a determined, confident, passionate researcher. All good qualities. Yay. 

So regarding your potential gap year. Would you look for work at your current lab or another lab completely? Also, don't worry about publications, they certainly DO help strengthen your application, but people are not expecting you to be able to publish in 2 years. If you do.. wow, that's impressive and I will hail you xD. Most programs DO ask for a third LOR, and you certainly don't want a simple 'does well in class" letter. Is there someone you collaborated with or a thesis advisor of sorts during your tenure at the aging or Pchem lab? If you can find someone, I'd say there's no reason to not apply for programs and skip the gap year business.

 

[Also, everyone can relate to being sleep deprived/nasty computer issues. Hope it all works out!]

Edited January 24, 2013 by VBD

[meguca]

Ah - sorry about the vitriol. It's just that there are some places on the Internet where genuinely asking for advice with an unconventional/unorthodox situation leads to 90% of the replies questioning the premises of your inquiry...

 

Thank you all for the advice. It's much appreciated, and I will reply later with a more thorough response/more questions after I am more rested.

 

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"I've stated this several times, so you're confronting contrived arguments with the fury of a woman scorned. Nobody is accusing you of lacking maturity,"

 

Again, I really am sorry... I definitely overly misinterpreted your statements.

 

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- I'd be continuing at my current (aging) lab if I did a gap year. The professor is well-known and has a ton of grants.

- For my 3rd LOR, I did very well in a theoretical mathematics course my 1st quarter so I would probably ask that professor for a LOR next year. If I decide to apply next year then I'll, in all likelihood, start approaching the professor soon, asking him the occasional math question and making sure he remembers me - and while it won't be as strong as actual research, I think that if I'm able to demonstrate a pretty high level of genuine mathematical curiosity (which I do possess! it's just that there are only so many hours in the day...) I'd be able to get a fairly strong LOR.

Edited January 24, 2013 by meguca

[Biohopeful]

Are there any opportunities to help out with teaching at your school?  If you can get a LOR from someone who supervised you as a lab aide or undergraduate TA, that would help out as well.  I know research is your focus, but depending on the school you matriculate into you'll likely have to work as a TA for a semester or two, so any teaching/tutoring experience you can get now will certainly help you out with that.

 

It doesn't matter as much who writes a LOR for you, as long as they can attest to your abilities to succeed in graduate school and speak on your behalf, you should be fine.  If you do want to have that professor write a LOR for you, I would suggest getting to know him better so he can write more than the typical "she got an A in my class...etc etc".

[meguca]

I will be sure to look into TA opportunities - I believe they do exist.

[cloudless_climes]

Thanks, Meguca.

[Usmivka]

The best thing you can do for grad school apps is have a paper out. Not a necessity by any means, but you are trying to get into top programs and evidence that you can do the whole research arc, from proposal to publication (which is really what a school is taking a bet on when it hires/admits you). Some of your competition, many of whom will be just as motivated or skilled, will decide to stay in school longer not because they couldn't get out after two years, but because they can do exciting research, go to conferences and meet scientists in their fields, and most importantly publish their work.

 

I'll preface the following: I don't know you in person, and I'd like to think that folks are generally more politic face to face, so I'm not making a value judgement on who you are--I am telling you what you may want to avoid. I understand feeling defensive as above, but it does come across as immature and arrogant, whether you think that is fair or not. I wouldn't broadcast your age ( ). An SOP or interviews displaying that defensiveness are a red flag for adcoms, and combined with your age (if shared) could make folks decide you are a higher risk admit than someone with the same resume who is a few years older. I've had some startlingly poor interactions with young applicants--you don't want to come off as socially immature or difficult to work/interact with. Don't give anyone the opening to think you fall into that category.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Usmivka

[GodelEscher]

The best thing you can do for grad school apps is have a paper out. Not a necessity by any means, but you are trying to get into top programs and evidence that you can do the whole research arc, from proposal to publication (which is really what a school is taking a bet on when it hires/admits you). Some of your competition, many of whom will be just as motivated or skilled, will decide to stay in school longer not because they couldn't get out after two years, but because they can do exciting research, go to conferences and meet scientists in their fields, and most importantly publish their work.

 

I'll preface the following: I don't know you in person, and I'd like to think that folks are generally more politic face to face, so I'm not making a value judgement on who you are--I am telling you what you may want to avoid. I understand feeling defensive as above, but it does come across as immature and arrogant, whether you think that is fair or not. I wouldn't broadcast your age ( ). An SOP or interviews displaying that defensiveness are a red flag for adcoms, and combined with your age (if shared) could make folks decide you are a higher risk admit than someone with the same resume who is a few years older. I've had some startlingly poor interactions with young applicants--you don't want to come off as socially immature or difficult to work/interact with. Don't give anyone the opening to think you fall into that category.

 

 

Well said...reading this made me glad I am applying to Counseling Psychology Phd programs, where maturity, collaboration and understanding is highly valued in candidates. I could foreshadow some difficulties in the professional world with that type of..ummm...personality traits. 

 

Introspection and "soul searching" is a vital component that can propel that motivation to be a successful PhD candidate. There are many things you can take advantage of to make you an excellent candidate, especially since you are very young. Some experiences may humble you and some may show you that being in a *top* school is not the objective of the pursuit. Rather it is the best program that fits you....

 

Good luck in your endeavors and I wish you well. And I suggest you pursue more time to refine your skills...and gain some perspective.

[TeaGirl]

Your stats look good on paper. The fact that you have a clear idea of what topic you're interested in working shows academic maturity, also good.

Two strong LORs are of course needed but for the most prestigious programs, they not only need to say that you're good, they need to say that you are amazing.

Publications of course would help a lot.

 

The fact that you're finishing undergrad in just two years (did I understand that right?) could be really great and in your favor as it shows that you are smart and hardworking. On the other hand, it could work completely against you if a program deems that you may be too young/not mature enough to handle the pressures of being a PhD student. This point will completely depend on the LORs and your SOP, and how you come through to someone reading both. You may want to not mention your age in the application as someone noted above.

 

Once you're ready to apply, email professors you'd like to work with (or ask your own professors for contacts at certain programs) and ask if they are taking on students. You don't want to waste money applying to a program and a PI who isn't taking students the next year. I recommend you apply to at least 7 universities all of which you'd be very happy to go to. That way, no matter where you go, you wouldn't feel like you settled.

(Biochem people, feel free to correct me on this point if the field is more or less competitive).

 

Finally, you seem like a smart person who's got their stuff together, but from experience, even smart people can fail. You really will not know whether or not you're good enough to get into a program till you try, and if you're set on your career path, I highly recommend you try.

Edited January 27, 2013 by TeaGirl