Problems with PI? Advice?

[The Graduate]

Alright so I'll keep this short, or at least try to. I'm a year and a half into the grad program, started in Masters, but am switching to PhD. I'm in a big lab (40-50 people at one point, but now ~20-25) and my PI is quite renown, which is really intimidating to me. I get really nervous around him and seem like I lack confidence. He said I wasn't communicating well with him for the first year because I wasn't making an effort to contact him and set up meetings and that he wasn't sure if he wanted to take me on as a PhD student if I didn't fix it. It caught me by surprise since I'm a quite and more reserved person, and he never said anything to me about this up until a year into the program. 

 

I tried my best, set up a meeting to discuss my project, tried to talk to him more. I got a scholarship which I guess helped out, and he said that he would take me on as a PhD student. 

 

I don't know if I'm being paranoid or not, but I feel like he doubts me somewhat. Anyone in a similar situation or have been? I really just want to have a good working relationship, I'm not trying to be his friend or anything. It's strange, because I feel like my entire future rests in his hands since he will be writing my letter of reference, and that makes me feel uneasy since we got off to a not so great start. 

Edited February 7, 2013 by The Graduate

[Physwimic]

I don't think that is a terrible start.  The student-advisor relationship is difficult, and can often lead to horrible failure.  But like most things, it takes a little work, on both sides, to cultivate.  When your advisor told you communication was off, he probably didn't mean anything negative by it other than to let you know what his expectations were and how the problem could be fixed.  By addressing those issues, you are back on the right track.

Everyone has their own personal styles, and as a PI of many students, your advisor has got to realize this.  As a fellow introvert, I can sympathize with your plight.  It can be difficult to talk with PIs, particularly when they are big names.  That being said, they are usually understanding that this whole process is a learning experience for you.  If you continue to make the same mistakes, then he may doubt you, but probably you are being a little paranoid.

[The Graduate]

I don't think that is a terrible start.  The student-advisor relationship is difficult, and can often lead to horrible failure.  But like most things, it takes a little work, on both sides, to cultivate.  When your advisor told you communication was off, he probably didn't mean anything negative by it other than to let you know what his expectations were and how the problem could be fixed.  By addressing those issues, you are back on the right track.

Everyone has their own personal styles, and as a PI of many students, your advisor has got to realize this.  As a fellow introvert, I can sympathize with your plight.  It can be difficult to talk with PIs, particularly when they are big names.  That being said, they are usually understanding that this whole process is a learning experience for you.  If you continue to make the same mistakes, then he may doubt you, but probably you are being a little paranoid.

Yea I think so too. I know it isn't a terrible start, but like I said my future is somewhat in my hands. I guess one thing that really got to me was that I sent in a progress report before a committee meeting to my committee members. He e-mailed me right away saying he wasn't happy about it since he didn't get a chance to make corrections. He then sent me a bunch of corrections and comments some of which were blunt, but that's just the way he is I guess with others too.

I know you need a backbone to take the criticism, but things just haven't been going my way lately. Simple experiments not working for a month or two, almost broke, eating milk and oatmeal for supper. etc etc. But such is life. 

[fuzzylogician]

Sounds like your advisor would like to be more hands on than you are letting him be. Despite the difficulty, this big-name professor is inviting you to learn from his expertise by meeting with him (more) regularly and getting his advice. You need to learn to get over your shyness and take advantage of this, or you'll find out soon enough that your professor doesn't trust you and/or doesn't think he knows your work well enough, and that will hurt the letters you could get from him when you graduate. Going over his head to your committee also doesn't help -- you need to give him time to comment on your work and you need to start approving plans with him. This sounds like a pretty typical expectation of a new PhD student; maybe you need to have a chat with your advisor to coordinate your expectations of each other.

[The Graduate]

Sounds like your advisor would like to be more hands on than you are letting him be. Despite the difficulty, this big-name professor is inviting you to learn from his expertise by meeting with him (more) regularly and getting his advice. You need to learn to get over your shyness and take advantage of this, or you'll find out soon enough that your professor doesn't trust you and/or doesn't think he knows your work well enough, and that will hurt the letters you could get from him when you graduate. Going over his head to your committee also doesn't help -- you need to give him time to comment on your work and you need to start approving plans with him. This sounds like a pretty typical expectation of a new PhD student; maybe you need to have a chat with your advisor to coordinate your expectations of each other.

Yea I wasn't trying to "avoid" him by sending in the progress report. I sent it to them all, and if I knew he wanted to look it over I would have done it for sure. The thing that gets me is that it's not like I'm trying to do these things, they just unfold by themselves.

[fuzzylogician]

I understand and I wasn't trying to blame you of anything. I was very serious when I proposed you meet with your advisor to talk about your expectations of each other (this should have been long ago, but better late than never!). Different advisors have different expectations and this one clearly knows what he wants. Find out what it is -- either by asking other grads about their day-to-day interactions with him, or better, by going to the source.

[Dal PhDer]

I really agree with fuzzy about setting up expectations, and Physwimic about the student-advisor relationship being difficult. 

 

I have been through some rough times with supervisors, but they've turned out for the positive. I have learned that setting up concrete, clear, and upfront goals are important. And it sounds like your supervisor is encouraging you to do that- which is great! Some supervisors prefer never to see their students! And in a lab that size, that's pretty good!

 

I know being shy is difficult...it took me a long time to just decide to be out there, and I still battle with expressing my needs and opinions to my supervisor - as we're often taught that they are right and we are wrong. But in a PhD relationship, it's really a reciprocal experience and one where both parties need to be happy. It takes effort on both sides, and it sounds like you're trying hard to meet his expectations, and he's trying to meet what he thinks yours are of him.

 

On another note- because you're in a lab of 25+ people, it would be good to start socializing and coming out of your shell with them...I know it's hard, but the graduate school experience can be quite isolating and lonely, and if you have peers that can support you - beit with humour, peer-review, buying you a beer, or bitching with you when you have a bad day- it's important to have that, and a great way to start becoming more comfortable speaking out. Also, talking to other graduate students about their interactions with your supervisor, their experiences with him, and goals/expectations, is another way to understand the relationship you're building with him- and can eliminate you having to engage in uncomfortable situations with him (or at least I'm surmising they're uncomfortable from what you said! )

 

I think you're doing great! Just try and be collaborative and social- I have found that it's helped me a lot.

[The Graduate]

I really agree with fuzzy about setting up expectations, and Physwimic about the student-advisor relationship being difficult. 

 

I have been through some rough times with supervisors, but they've turned out for the positive. I have learned that setting up concrete, clear, and upfront goals are important. And it sounds like your supervisor is encouraging you to do that- which is great! Some supervisors prefer never to see their students! And in a lab that size, that's pretty good!

 

I know being shy is difficult...it took me a long time to just decide to be out there, and I still battle with expressing my needs and opinions to my supervisor - as we're often taught that they are right and we are wrong. But in a PhD relationship, it's really a reciprocal experience and one where both parties need to be happy. It takes effort on both sides, and it sounds like you're trying hard to meet his expectations, and he's trying to meet what he thinks yours are of him.

 

On another note- because you're in a lab of 25+ people, it would be good to start socializing and coming out of your shell with them...I know it's hard, but the graduate school experience can be quite isolating and lonely, and if you have peers that can support you - beit with humour, peer-review, buying you a beer, or bitching with you when you have a bad day- it's important to have that, and a great way to start becoming more comfortable speaking out. Also, talking to other graduate students about their interactions with your supervisor, their experiences with him, and goals/expectations, is another way to understand the relationship you're building with him- and can eliminate you having to engage in uncomfortable situations with him (or at least I'm surmising they're uncomfortable from what you said! )

 

I think you're doing great! Just try and be collaborative and social- I have found that it's helped me a lot.

Thanks for the tips. I do find it hard to socialize with new people in new situations since I tend to be naturally introverted and shy. One thing that definitely makes it harder is that there is a "gap" between me and my lab mates. For example I am quite young in the lab, a lot of them are older even into their 30's, married, and just interested in much different things than I am. I do try to interact though, it's one of the things I'm working on. I know that a huge part of being successful in this field is being able to network and socialize, even though scientists are "notorious" for having bad social skills

[Tall Chai Latte]

Thanks for the tips. I do find it hard to socialize with new people in new situations since I tend to be naturally introverted and shy. One thing that definitely makes it harder is that there is a "gap" between me and my lab mates. For example I am quite young in the lab, a lot of them are older even into their 30's, married, and just interested in much different things than I am. I do try to interact though, it's one of the things I'm working on. I know that a huge part of being successful in this field is being able to network and socialize, even though scientists are "notorious" for having bad social skills

I know how you feel, being at different stages in life from the rest of the lab. I'm surrounded by 5 postdocs, all of them married and well in their 30s, and I'm still in my mid-20s. It was hard to socialize at first, but as time goes on we have more and more things to talk with each other, like... bitching about our bad days together, and we do organize lab BBQ and going out for lunch. Bonding will come with time, albeit being awkward at first. 

 

I agree with what Physwimic said about advisor-student relationship: it's difficult to manage it well. Both parties are trying to meet each other's expectations, at the same time guessing what the expectations are. Setting a clear list of them will help you in the long run.

 

Speaking of trying to communicate with advisors, a funny question that was brought out during my new own student orientation was "So um... I was trying to get more face time with my rotation advisor. Sometimes he has his door wide open, sometimes he has it closed. But what does it mean if he leaves the door open just a little?"

[Dal PhDer]

"But what does it mean if he leaves the door open just a little?"

 

Hahaha...I take that as "bother with caution"!

 

As TCL said, it does come in time. And I'm not talking about BFFs with friendship bracelets...but it is nice to have some kind of relationship with your lab mates so that when you do have a bad day, you have people who can relate to you and you can just vent. For me, age hasn't matter...one of my closest lab mates is a late 40's post-doc who's married and adopting a child...aside from being women and in the same lab together (and liking cute animal pictures) we don't have a lot in common...but we're there for eachother when we need to vent, get feedback on our work, or just need a little favor.

 

I do know it's more difficult for some to jump into socializing, and can totally feel for you...but I'm just trying to give some reassurance that your lab mates would probably also like someone to share venting with and would most likely welcome you with open arms for a bitch session!

 

As for your advisor...it'll take time. It's the same kind of relationship you would have with a new boss...it's hard to understand the boundaries and social dynamics when you first start out. But it will get better!