2012 Reno Rankings

[Therewillbeluke]

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/11/ranking-theology-programs/rr-reno

 

This has been done in the past with previous Reno rankings, but what do you all think about this?

Edited February 19, 2013 by Therewillbeluke

[VictorEremita]

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2012/11/ranking-theology-programs/rr-reno

 

This has been done in the past with previous Reno ranking, but what do you all think about this?

 

Ah, a fellow First Things reader. I don't have much to contribute other than to say that Reno has rather narrow interests in mind when compiling these lists, and that one could probably work within the confines of any of these departments and leverage their relative strengths to tailor an excellent course of study. But, coming as I do from a background in the humanities and the history of ideas, I don't know too much about theology departments or their reputations, and am eager to hear others' thoughts.

 

On a related note, I impulsively wrote Reno asking him for his opinion of a theology program not listed in his published assessment. He answered immediately with thoughtful feedback, which I appreciated. 

Edited February 19, 2013 by VictorEremita

[Seatbelt Blue]

Hey, cool, BC made the list, and he namechecked my principal POI (presuming I am using that acronym correctly)

Edited February 19, 2013 by Seatbelt Blue

[Neem217]

He's been ranking schools for a while. His rankings are pretty consistent. The list tends to veer towards more conservative programs as well as Catholic institutes, though he is aware of that. The question should be asked, what does Reno consider to be theology? What type of theology do you want to do? It is clear he is interested in orthodoxy. While Notre Dame is good for Catholic systematic theology, a person who is interested in constructive theology would do better at Drew or GTU. A ranked list in no way indicates fit. 

 

I think one thing Reno does not know is how these programs' masters students fare during doctoral application. How are students at Harvard doing in their doctoral applications, even in theology (as overall, the Harvard masters students fare pretty well in religious studies, and here I include HB/NT/Ancient Christianity as well as other religious traditions and comparative theology), compared with students who are doing their masters at BC STM? I would say Notre Dame masters students do well also. Funding is also another factor. Can Dayton grant you the same stipend as Yale? Probably not. I find Marquette to have an overwhelming male faculty, thus, for someone who was admitted to their masters program under the Trinity Fellowship ($18K stipend also with free tuition), but am interested in feminist theology -- it simply was not a good fit. A faculty member of a well-known Catholic institution who attended Catholic University advised me not to apply their for my masters or PhD. She didn't think their program was strong. As mentioned, they have no money. 

 

There are a lot of questions to be asked. I wouldn't take this list as the law. If you are interested in Orthodox systematic theology, then I would say, yes, overall, he's correct. But, I just think there's so much more to the equation and future of theology than orthodoxy. 

[Theo-Be]

I don't know if you've seen this plus it's super complicated, but interesting:

 

http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/

[sacklunch]

His list is rather shortsighted. But I guess he does qualify the list as "theological' schools, whatever that even means these days. 

[Lux Lex Pax]

Reno's rankings seem completely impressionistic and biased. See for instance this post: http://tacet.wordpress.com/tag/graduate-theology/

<<A brief recap: Marquette in 2006 suffers from the “liberal-revisionist agenda” of the Jesuits, but in 2009 it has “avoided the narrow parochialism of the now old and often narrowly liberal Catholic theology.” In 2006, it is not quite cut out for the top ten, but in 2009 it is number five in the country. Onward.

Fast forward a bit to 2010, where Marquette drops from fifth to sixth: “alone among Jesuit doctoral programs, the theology department at Marquette has as its greatest strength the fact that it is not hobbled by the increasingly superannuated agenda of liberal Catholic theology. The faculty in historical theology and systematic theology don’t necessarily jell into a corporate personality, but professors such as Ralph Del Colle and Susan Wood are pushing forward, trying to discern the possibilities for Catholic theology in North America after the collapse of the short-lived but once ruthlessly dominant Rahnerian consensus. Some of the avatars of the declining Rahnerian approach still teach at Marquette, but the theologies of Hans Urs von Balthasar and St. Thomas are also well represented … Marquette’s biggest liability is Marquette. It’s a fine institution, but it lacks the overall atmosphere of academic excellence that one finds at most elite universities, and this invariably holds back the theology department as well.” While I take issue with the final comment, that Marquette “lacks the overall atmosphere of academic excellence that one finds at most elite universities” (we do just fine, thank you), not much has changed between 2009 and 2010.

Fast forward two more years, to 2012, and it would appear that we (Marquette) have barely made Reno’s cut. We place ninth overall, just before the University of Dayton: “in the past I’ve given Marquette University good marks. Lately staffing has changed. Ralph Del Colle passed away earlier in the year, and Alexander Golitzen left to become an Orthodox bishop. This tilts the program in the direction of dead-end liberal Catholicism. There are still good folks there (Mickey Mattox, Stephen Long), but it’s less congenial than it once was.”>>

It's all going to come down to who you want to work with and how much money the school has to offer. Look for the scholars that you want to work with, apply to those schools, hope you get in and that they can provide you full funding plus a stipend. When looking for whom to work with, consider not only the kind of work they do but also the kinds of students they produce, how much attention and support they give to their students, and their track record of placing students in desirable jobs.

And let's be honest, for the benefit of those new to the field, the top candidates in theology and ethics year-in and year-out tend to come from a handful of schools: Yale, Duke, U. Chicago, Notre Dame, UVa, Princeton U., Harvard, and maybe Emory and Vanderbilt. People can dispute it all they want, but these 7 (9?) schools tend to dominate the field. Does it mean you can't make it if you're coming from the GTU or Drew or CGU? No, it'll just be much harder.

[Theo-Be]

Reno's rankings seem completely impressionistic and biased. See for instance this post: http://tacet.wordpress.com/tag/graduate-theology/

<<A brief recap: Marquette in 2006 suffers from the “liberal-revisionist agenda” of the Jesuits, but in 2009 it has “avoided the narrow parochialism of the now old and often narrowly liberal Catholic theology.” In 2006, it is not quite cut out for the top ten, but in 2009 it is number five in the country. Onward.

Fast forward a bit to 2010, where Marquette drops from fifth to sixth: “alone among Jesuit doctoral programs, the theology department at Marquette has as its greatest strength the fact that it is not hobbled by the increasingly superannuated agenda of liberal Catholic theology. The faculty in historical theology and systematic theology don’t necessarily jell into a corporate personality, but professors such as Ralph Del Colle and Susan Wood are pushing forward, trying to discern the possibilities for Catholic theology in North America after the collapse of the short-lived but once ruthlessly dominant Rahnerian consensus. Some of the avatars of the declining Rahnerian approach still teach at Marquette, but the theologies of Hans Urs von Balthasar and St. Thomas are also well represented … Marquette’s biggest liability is Marquette. It’s a fine institution, but it lacks the overall atmosphere of academic excellence that one finds at most elite universities, and this invariably holds back the theology department as well.” While I take issue with the final comment, that Marquette “lacks the overall atmosphere of academic excellence that one finds at most elite universities” (we do just fine, thank you), not much has changed between 2009 and 2010.

Fast forward two more years, to 2012, and it would appear that we (Marquette) have barely made Reno’s cut. We place ninth overall, just before the University of Dayton: “in the past I’ve given Marquette University good marks. Lately staffing has changed. Ralph Del Colle passed away earlier in the year, and Alexander Golitzen left to become an Orthodox bishop. This tilts the program in the direction of dead-end liberal Catholicism. There are still good folks there (Mickey Mattox, Stephen Long), but it’s less congenial than it once was.”>>

It's all going to come down to who you want to work with and how much money the school has to offer. Look for the scholars that you want to work with, apply to those schools, hope you get in and that they can provide you full funding plus a stipend. When looking for whom to work with, consider not only the kind of work they do but also the kinds of students they produce, how much attention and support they give to their students, and their track record of placing students in desirable jobs.

And let's be honest, for the benefit of those new to the field, the top candidates in theology and ethics year-in and year-out tend to come from a handful of schools: Yale, Duke, U. Chicago, Notre Dame, UVa, Princeton U., Harvard, and maybe Emory and Vanderbilt. People can dispute it all they want, but these 7 (9?) schools tend to dominate the field. Does it mean you can't make it if you're coming from the GTU or Drew or CGU? No, it'll just be much harder.

Lux Lex Pax:  do you know anything about loyola chicago?  i'm totally regretting not having applied to duke and vanderbilt.

[sacklunch]

Reno's rankings seem completely impressionistic and biased. See for instance this post: http://tacet.wordpress.com/tag/graduate-theology/

<<A brief recap: Marquette in 2006 suffers from the “liberal-revisionist agenda” of the Jesuits, but in 2009 it has “avoided the narrow parochialism of the now old and often narrowly liberal Catholic theology.” In 2006, it is not quite cut out for the top ten, but in 2009 it is number five in the country. Onward.

Fast forward a bit to 2010, where Marquette drops from fifth to sixth: “alone among Jesuit doctoral programs, the theology department at Marquette has as its greatest strength the fact that it is not hobbled by the increasingly superannuated agenda of liberal Catholic theology. The faculty in historical theology and systematic theology don’t necessarily jell into a corporate personality, but professors such as Ralph Del Colle and Susan Wood are pushing forward, trying to discern the possibilities for Catholic theology in North America after the collapse of the short-lived but once ruthlessly dominant Rahnerian consensus. Some of the avatars of the declining Rahnerian approach still teach at Marquette, but the theologies of Hans Urs von Balthasar and St. Thomas are also well represented … Marquette’s biggest liability is Marquette. It’s a fine institution, but it lacks the overall atmosphere of academic excellence that one finds at most elite universities, and this invariably holds back the theology department as well.” While I take issue with the final comment, that Marquette “lacks the overall atmosphere of academic excellence that one finds at most elite universities” (we do just fine, thank you), not much has changed between 2009 and 2010.

Fast forward two more years, to 2012, and it would appear that we (Marquette) have barely made Reno’s cut. We place ninth overall, just before the University of Dayton: “in the past I’ve given Marquette University good marks. Lately staffing has changed. Ralph Del Colle passed away earlier in the year, and Alexander Golitzen left to become an Orthodox bishop. This tilts the program in the direction of dead-end liberal Catholicism. There are still good folks there (Mickey Mattox, Stephen Long), but it’s less congenial than it once was.”>>

It's all going to come down to who you want to work with and how much money the school has to offer. Look for the scholars that you want to work with, apply to those schools, hope you get in and that they can provide you full funding plus a stipend. When looking for whom to work with, consider not only the kind of work they do but also the kinds of students they produce, how much attention and support they give to their students, and their track record of placing students in desirable jobs.

And let's be honest, for the benefit of those new to the field, the top candidates in theology and ethics year-in and year-out tend to come from a handful of schools: Yale, Duke, U. Chicago, Notre Dame, UVa, Princeton U., Harvard, and maybe Emory and Vanderbilt. People can dispute it all they want, but these 7 (9?) schools tend to dominate the field. Does it mean you can't make it if you're coming from the GTU or Drew or CGU? No, it'll just be much harder.

 

Thank god(s) for the Jesuit's “liberal-revisionist agenda"!   

[11Q13]

I don't know if you've seen this plus it's super complicated, but interesting:

 

http://chronicle.com/article/nrc-religion/124664/

 

It looks really interesting, I just don't have a clue what was going on in that chart...

[Lux Lex Pax]

It looks really interesting, I just don't have a clue what was going on in that chart...

This (http://graduate-school.phds.org/rankings/religion) is probably a little more helpful. It's all the same data, but this allows you to place more value on things you think are more important, for instance, student outcomes versus faculty productivity.

[Lux Lex Pax]

Lux Lex Pax:  do you know anything about loyola chicago?  i'm totally regretting not having applied to duke and vanderbilt.

Sorry, I don't know much about the program, so anything I'd say about it would be pure speculation. However, as I said before, faculty and funding are the two most important criteria. If they have faculty that are doing work that interests you, that are supportive and care about your theological formation, and that have a good record of placing people in desirable jobs, and the school is willing to fund you, then I say go for it.