Where should I go? (Duke, Chicago, Princeton)

[Kluttsjd]

Hello all,

 

I've been reading through these forums for a few days now and I have a question. I was accepted to three different programs:

Duke - MTS (no funding announced yet)

 

Chicago - A.M. (50% tuition)

 

Princeton Seminary - MDiv (80% tuition)

 

And right now I'm really struggling to try and figure out which one I should accept. My background is Philosophy and Government from Houston Baptist University (BA May 2013) and I ultimately would like to pursue a PhD in Philosophy specializing in either Religion or Continental Philosophy (Existentialism, Postmodernism, Phenomenology, etc). I also do not have a huge financial pool to draw from (shocker, I know.) so I'm a little stuck.

 

On the one hand, Princeton's financial offer is tantalizing and Chicago's smaller offer coupled with their high tuition really weighs on my mind. On the other hand, Chicago's faculty (Hector, Marion, etc) is right in my wheelhouse and would do the most to help me in my long term goal.

 

And then Duke is just a wonderful program with some of the top Christian theological minds in the world (I'm specifically thinking of Hauerwas here) and the atmosphere/aesthetic appeal of NC is a big factor for my fiancee and I.

 

Obviously all three are strong programs and I was blessed to be accepted into all three and faced with a dilemma that I'm sure others would be excited to have. But as of right now, I could really use some insight and advice.

 

So, anything anyone had to say would be extremely welcome and appreciated

[coffeekid]

As someone with very similar interests to you, I can say that uChicago seems like a natural fit. Even if you have a trust fund to draw from, you're looking at $40,000 in tuition plus chicago living for an academic risk (as are all religion masters for those looking to do a PhD eventually).

What I can say is that in recent years, philosophy programs have become increasingly difficult. Even continental programs, which have historically been less competitive than top 25 analytic programs, have become nearly impossible to penetrate without a philosophy masters. I say this as someone very attracted to the continental ones.

That sad, I had the same offer you had from uChicago three years ago, and would have killed to study with Marion (on whom I've written two theses now), but went where more money was offered. I can say that after the fact, I am very happy I made the decision I did.

All your options are good. If money is not an object, do Chicago. If it is, wait to see what Duke says. Their philosophy and religion programs are solid, but their comp lit department is probably most suited to address your philosophical interests.

[Sparky]

If your goal is a PhD in philosophy, why not check with each program to see what kind of PhD placement its students obtain? I agree with coffeekid that a religion M* might not be the best path to a philosophy PhD in many cases. My very vague impression of philosophy PhDs is, somewhat like coffeekid, that there are a handful of "top" MA programs and that's pretty much it. (Heh--like theology!)

 

That said, two things about Duke:

1. Hauerwas has just about got to be retiring soon. If he's the main draw, make sure that's not, like, this semester.

2. When I did my master's, the PhD students (basically the rest of the cohort...it was an interesting experience) with the best philosophical background had done M*'s at Duke. Seriously. They really, really knew their stuff.

 

I followed the money rather than academics/faculty rep and things have worked out fantastically for me, but in religion I'm not sure this is always the case. 

[indefiniteintegral]

Hauerwas retires this semester (Spring 2013).

[Guest]

All three are just so fantastic that I would honestly suggest that each school will not disappoint you in the least. But since you are interested in philosophy, you might consider what philosophy dept. at each school best fits your interests because most master programs allow you to take 2+ courses in any dept. or school. I suspect this may be the case even for PTS since it has such close ties with Princeton proper.

 

As for Duke, as others have noted, Hauerwas IS retiring. I don't think this means he will just be gone, though. It is quite possible that he could teach another class or two—not to mention special symposiums/presentations—throughout his retirement. However, others are right in noting that you shouldn't hedge all your bets on this. Might I suggest you look at Reinhard Hutter, Paul Griffiths, and Norman Wirzba? Each deal heavily with philosophy, and I know Wirzba is by training a philosopher. Also, know that funding for ~80% of MTS students is roughly at 22% since there only four merit scholarships. Finally, there is a phenomenal Baptist House of Studies here headed by Curtis Freeman.

 

Anyways, I don't have much to say on Princeton or Chicago but I do believe they are likewise places that will give you a top-notch education. Princeton is incredibly inexpensive, as I'm sure you know. 

[Kluttsjd]

I've been in contact with Dr. Kevin Hector (Chicago) and he informed me that the divinity school there had an extremely close relationship with the Philosophy dept. at Chicago. They even encourage their students to take classes from the department. So that was very good to hear.

 

I sent an email to academics@div.duke.edu asking them the same question of whether or not their was a relationship with the Phil dept at Duke and an opportunity to take classes and have yet to hear back.

 

Does anyone know about that type of relationship between Princeton Seminary and Princeton proper? I know that it's a little different since PTSem is it's own institution and not formally linked to Princeton university

[sacklunch]

The unfortunate reality is you will likely get much less funding at Duke. Isn't average funding for Div students like 25%? The flip side to that is Duke's MTS is one of the most competitive MTS degrees out there (second to ND's, I think). Though the bad thing about Duke is having to take all the required courses for an MTS degree...which I have heard leaves little room for a lot of language work and other prep doctoral programs will want to see. If Chicago's program gives you more flexibility (no idea if it does) I would go with it as my first pick.

 

There has been a discussion in another thread about MDiv verses two masters. I chose the latter route because it allows you to spend the 3 years (or 4 in my case) on 'pure' academic work. I would urge you to consider the same. Perhaps doing an MTS/AM and then another year or two (philosophy MA, for example) to complement your theological training. Many of the folks I know with MDiv's haven't been terribly benefited from the specific MDiv training in their respective doctoral programs, unless of course their research is directly related to something pastoral. 

 

My .02.

best

[Lux Lex Pax]

Students at PTS are allowed, within certain limits, to take courses at PU. It's definitely possible to do some coursework in the philosophy department. The PU religion department is also very philosophically oriented. In fact, although Hector got his Ph.D. at PTS, he worked closely with Stout at PU, whom he credits for his philosophical chops.

[Kluttsjd]

Students at PTS are allowed, within certain limits, to take courses at PU. It's definitely possible to do some coursework in the philosophy department. The PU religion department is also very philosophically oriented. In fact, although Hector got his Ph.D. at PTS, he worked closely with Stout at PU, whom he credits for his philosophical chops.

 

Lux, you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about PTS. Reading the bios, Graham seems to have an interest in Wittgenstein and Theology and Johnson has an interest in Levinas. While these are just briefly mentioned in their bios, both of these piqued my interest. I have a large interest both in Levinas' phenomenology and Wittgenstein's understanding of language/logic. Can you confirm/deny that they are knowledgeable in these areas? These are very specific areas that I want to study and a major draw to Chicago.

[Lux Lex Pax]

Lux, you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about PTS. Reading the bios, Graham seems to have an interest in Wittgenstein and Theology and Johnson has an interest in Levinas. While these are just briefly mentioned in their bios, both of these piqued my interest. I have a large interest both in Levinas' phenomenology and Wittgenstein's understanding of language/logic. Can you confirm/deny that they are knowledgeable in these areas? These are very specific areas that I want to study and a major draw to Chicago.

Graham has taught Wittgenstein in the past at the Ph.D. level. I'm not sure if he's done anything at the M.Div. level. Graham is sharp and knows his stuff. The issue with him, like most philosophers or theologians for that matter, is his personality. Johnson does work in Levinas and has taught Levinas at the M.Div. level in his course on Postmodern, Post-holocaust, Post-9/11 theology (referred to as his "post, post, post" class). I think Johnson has also written stuff on Levinas. There are also knowledgeable people in those areas at PU. Leora Batnitzky is teaching a seminar this semester on Heidegger, Ricouer, and Levinas (with a healthy dose of Kant and Descartes). Stout knows his Wittgenstein as well; for instance, see the volume he edited titled "Grammar and Grace." Although the website doesn't list it, I would imagine John Bowlin at PTS would also know a fair bit about Wittgenstein and theology since he did contribute an essay to the "Grammar and Grace" volume and was trained by one of the big Wittgenstein/Aquinas scholars at the time (Victor Preller). There are definitely the resources at PTS and PU to study Wittgenstein, Levinas, and just about anyone else you want. My suggestion would be to befriend Bowlin while at PTS, who'll then connect you with the resources at PTS and PU that you need.

[Yetanotherdegree]

You're looking at three different degrees. If you have any interest in possible ordination at a future, maybe-one-day point, take the MDiv. It's best to just get it over with now and have the possibility in place if it might be a real possibility. They are all good institutions, and your education and opportunities coming out of them will all be fine. The money is a big deal. The less you will end up owing, the better. If I were you, I would 1) think seriously at the MDiv/ordination piece and decide if that is important, and 2) crunch the numbers (once you hear from duke) and figure out how much you'll owe at the end of the degree.

[Kluttsjd]

You're looking at three different degrees. If you have any interest in possible ordination at a future, maybe-one-day point, take the MDiv. It's best to just get it over with now and have the possibility in place if it might be a real possibility. They are all good institutions, and your education and opportunities coming out of them will all be fine. The money is a big deal. The less you will end up owing, the better. If I were you, I would 1) think seriously at the MDiv/ordination piece and decide if that is important, and 2) crunch the numbers (once you hear from duke) and figure out how much you'll owe at the end of the degree.

 

I don't have a direct interest in ordination but I am open to the possibility. My ultimate goal is a PhD and a teaching position, but I'm assuming ordination isn't a very large detour from that goal. So, it's a possibility but neither a driving force nor a large weighing factor

Edited March 18, 2013 by Kluttsjd

[Kluttsjd]

Thank you to everyone who has helped and offered advice!

After hearing back from the offer at Duke (the standard ~22% that people said it was on here), I have decided to go to Princeton Seminary.

[coffeekid]

Thank you to everyone who has helped and offered advice!

After hearing back from the offer at Duke (the standard ~22% that people said it was on here), I have decided to go to Princeton Seminary.

Congrats! I'm sure you're going to do awesome there.