What would you do differently?

[bluecheese]

It is totally a numbers game, especially when it comes to those top programs (but also when it comes to second tier schools) - I got into Brown, NYU, Michigan, Madison, etc. and was rejected from UC Boulder, Chicago Loyola, etc. (I was also rejected from top programs that I thought I was a better fit for me than the one's that accepted me--I assumed I stood the best chance at U of Chicago, U Penn, and Duke out of the top 20 programs I applied to, and I didn't get into any of those). 

Edited March 20, 2013 by bluecheese

[practical cat]

Whenever I think about this, it drives me nuts, because I have no idea.  I have zero acceptances, but I still feel good about my application.

 

I was just coming off an MA program that I completely pwned, and had presented at several conferences and published a paper (with another in the pipeline). I had solid undergrad grades, my subject test went great, and while the regular GRE scores weren't stellar, they were fine (710/math/6.0). My writing sample was adapted from my MA dissertation, which won a prize against 100+ others. I researched schools ahead of time, picked the ones that seemed like good matches, and contacted professors with similar research interests.

 

I just chalk it up to a numbers game so that I don't tear my hair out.

You have a phenomenal wait list which means you SHOULD still feel good about your application. It is a numbers game, yes (and there's stuff going on in departments that we couldn't possibly know) -- sometimes qualified applicants get shut out from schools that are good fits. For all we talk about what we'd do differently, stuff on our end might not actually be the thing that makes a difference.

[Taco Superior]

Girl Who Wears Glasses: you will decline the Buffalo MA no matter what?

[practical cat]

Girl Who Wears Glasses: you will decline the Buffalo MA no matter what?

Yes.

[champagne]

Yikes! Blueberryscone's story really frightens me (as if I wasn't already frightened enough). I don't have nearly as impressive of a resume. Then again, I only have a BA. I'm wondering about how that will affect any success I have in this process.

 

 

As far as advice I can give, there isn't much. I definitely think it was a numbers game with you. Those programs you applied to are top-notch. So much so that the second coming of T.S. Eliot probably couldn't get into them. I would spread out my applications to "less prestigious" programs next time, but, then again, all I've heard since I've started this process is that it's not worth it unless you can get into a top twenty Ph.D. program.

 

Le sigh...

[ComeBackZinc]

As far as advice I can give, there isn't much. I definitely think it was a numbers game with you. Those programs you applied to are top-notch. So much so that the second coming of T.S. Eliot probably couldn't get into them. I would spread out my applications to "less prestigious" programs next time, but, then again, all I've heard since I've started this process is that it's not worth it unless you can get into a top twenty Ph.D. program.

 

Le sigh...

 

It's a sticky conversation. I think one thing that we have to remember is that for most people here, the goal is not just "get into a PhD program," but rather "get into a PhD program and go from there to a tenure track job in English." And those odds are very, very low. What's more, most of those who want to get tenure track jobs don't want to be teaching 4/4s for the rest of their lives, so their goal is actually "go from there to a tenure track job in English at a research institution where I'll only teach a handful of classes a year." And the odds of that are far worse than the odds of getting into the most exclusive English PhD programs in the country. And they're only getting worse.

 

For myself, I have a very strong chance of getting a tenure track job, given the numbers game within rhet/comp writ large and Purdue PhDs specifically. I am aware that the job I get is likely to be at a teaching university, not considered prestigious, where I will teach 3 or 4 classes a semester. Not that I won't reach for a job at a research university, and I have a shot; we place people in those jobs all the time. But I'm perfectly happy to work at an open-enrollment  teaching university. But then, I love to teach, and I love to teach composition, and I'm looking forward to being a Writing Program Administrator. So my goals are different; what I'm hoping for is exactly what a lot of people here are trying to avoid.

 

If your goal is to get a TT job in literature at a prestigious research university, I think it's a dream worth pursuing if you are totally mercenary and realistic with yourself and still decide to go for it. But you have to understand it as a dream in the same way that becoming a celebrity or professional athlete is: reserved for a tiny fraction of the people who pursue it.

Edited March 21, 2013 by ComeBackZinc

[dazedandbemused]

Yikes! Blueberryscone's story really frightens me (as if I wasn't already frightened enough). I don't have nearly as impressive of a resume. Then again, I only have a BA. I'm wondering about how that will affect any success I have in this process.

 

 

As far as advice I can give, there isn't much. I definitely think it was a numbers game with you. Those programs you applied to are top-notch. So much so that the second coming of T.S. Eliot probably couldn't get into them. I would spread out my applications to "less prestigious" programs next time, but, then again, all I've heard since I've started this process is that it's not worth it unless you can get into a top twenty Ph.D. program.

 

Le sigh...

 

I know this discussion has been had countless times on this forum, but I think it's ridiculous to limit oneself to the top twenty. Instead, limit yourself to the schools with the best tenure-track placement at the kind of institutions that you want to end up at. This was my second application season, and though I think my applications "fit" much better this time, I wish I had thought to focus on placement. There are a good number of schools outside of the top 20 who have placement rates much higher than the national average of 40% and there are schools in the top 20 that have the majority of their students placed in lectureships. Plus, when we consider the ridiculous arbitrariness that is the rankings system anyway...better to have a name on your diploma that will get you a job than a name that will impress people. Of course, if you can get both, even better.

Edited March 21, 2013 by dazedandbemused

[Fishbucket]

It's a sticky conversation. I think one thing that we have to remember is that for most people here, the goal is not just "get into a PhD program," but rather "get into a PhD program and go from there to a tenure track job in English." And those odds are very, very low. What's more, most of those who want to get tenure track jobs don't want to be teaching 4/4s for the rest of their lives, so their goal is actually "go from there to a tenure track job in English at a research institution where I'll only teach a handful of classes a year." And the odds of that are far worse than the odds of getting into the most exclusive English PhD programs in the country. And they're only getting worse.

 

For myself, I have a very strong chance of getting a tenure track job, given the numbers game within rhet/comp writ large and Purdue PhDs specifically. I am aware that the job I get is likely to be at a teaching university, not considered prestigious, where I will teach 3 or 4 classes a semester. Not that I won't reach for a job at a research university, and I have a shot; we place people in those jobs all the time. But I'm perfectly happy to work at an open-enrollment  teaching university. But then, I love to teach, and I love to teach composition, and I'm looking forward to being a Writing Program Administrator. So my goals are different; what I'm hoping for is exactly what a lot of people here are trying to avoid.

 

If your goal is to get a TT job in literature at a prestigious research university, I think it's a dream worth pursuing if you are totally mercenary and realistic with yourself and still decide to go for it. But you have to understand it as a dream in the same way that becoming a celebrity or professional athlete is: reserved for a tiny fraction of the people who pursue it.

 

Yeah i have to agree that getting tenure track in rhetoric and composition is a whole different animal from tenure track literature jobs, especially at R1 schools. But I feel like the dreamy image of professorial life doesn't usually encompass an R1 school, it's more of a small liberal arts college tucked away in some scenic meadow

[ComeBackZinc]

Yeah i have to agree that getting tenure track in rhetoric and composition is a whole different animal from tenure track literature jobs, especially at R1 schools. But I feel like the dreamy image of professorial life doesn't usually encompass an R1 school, it's more of a small liberal arts college tucked away in some scenic meadow

 

Right, that's a good point. And while we get a few of those, to be the sole compositionist at a school like that, we place far more people in mid-tier state schools, with huge student populations and a need for remediation vertical integration with high school. It's a different professional life, for most of us, than that which many people think of when they think "English professor."

[champagne]

If your goal is to get a TT job in literature at a prestigious research university, I think it's a dream worth pursuing if you are totally mercenary and realistic with yourself and still decide to go for it. But you have to understand it as a dream in the same way that becoming a celebrity or professional athlete is: reserved for a tiny fraction of the people who pursue it.

 

It's funny you should mention this. When explaining to people how ridiculous it is to say I want to be a tenure track college professor, my go-to analogy is either wanting to be a professional baseball player or an astronaut.

[Fishbucket]

It's funny you should mention this. When explaining to people how ridiculous it is to say I want to be a tenure track college professor, my go-to analogy is either wanting to be a professional baseball player or an astronaut.

 

Oh please, that's not true. I think some people say that in order to make their academic goals seem more valiant. 

[champagne]

Oh please, that's not true. I think some people say that in order to make their academic goals seem more valiant. 

 

I don't say it to be self-serving nor to state fact. I just say it because the funnies. 

[ComeBackZinc]

Oh please, that's not true. I think some people say that in order to make their academic goals seem more valiant. 

 

If it's an exaggeration, it's only by a very small amount. Fishbucket: the vast majority of the people who read and post here will never get tenure track jobs. Never. The numbers are staggering. Getting a tenure track job in literature is punishingly bad odds. If you've convinced yourself that that isn't true, you should do some research and reconsider.

[kareneliz]

Why is there so much negativity here? So many posters here are excited to start the next step of their journies -- all knowing that, of course, tenure is hard to come by. No one who has gotten into a PhD program can be a TOTAL fool, right? So why this need to make others feel insecure, uncomfortable and ashamed of their hopes? This is a joyful time for everyone who has been accepted, and a time for picking one's self up off the floor for those who have not. What happiness is there in making other people feel like shit about their future goals? Enough of this "people need to be more realistic" crap as q defense of pure meanness. We all know its a tough market. Why aren't we at least supporting one another at this point?

[ComeBackZinc]

I'm sorry if that's how I've made you feel. It is never, ever my intent to hurt anyone's feelings or degrade them. I apologize for it, if that's what I've done.

 

I have to tell you: that is literally the opposite of what I see here generally. I find the general tone around here to be one of optimism and support. And I'm glad it is. But I also find that there is a broad disconnect between when people say, "I know how bad the numbers are," and their actual behavior. That's fine. People are adults. They can make rational decisions. But I have lots of friends in the humanities at lots of universities, some of them from those "top five" schools we keep talking about. And nobody is getting jobs. Even many of the absolute tippity-top literature programs aren't doing much better than getting two thirds of their PhDs hired in TT jobs. Meanwhile, because TAs are cheap labor, departments are not adjusting the number of acceptances they give out to reflect the market. Departments everywhere are flooding the market with PhDs, making the competition harder on everyone. Ask around, and you'll find departments who can't get their star students hired. That's not me being mean. That's reality. 

 

If you don't want to take my word for it, Google around a bit. You'll find plenty of angry, embittered posts from people who were just like the people here, did their 5 (or 6, or 7, or 8....) years, and found no job. And now they're trying to stitch six sections of adjuncting together or applying to entirely different jobs. I'm not making that up. Look around. Find the numbers. Ask your professors! The realistic ones, the ones who are willing to say the harsh truth. If it's crap to point out what is the plain truth, then I'm guilty of spouting crap. Either way, everyone here can't afford to just think of themselves now. You've got to think of yourself 6 years from now-- older, tired, broke, and facing a brutal (and worsening) job market. I just don't want one of you guys to someday be the ones writing those embittered blog posts about how you were bamboozled, how nobody every told you.

 

Everyone cannot be the exception to the rule. Most people are going to be the rule.

Edited March 21, 2013 by ComeBackZinc

[ComeBackZinc]

Michael Berube, PSU endowed professor and former MLA president:

 

 

A Seamless Garment of Crisis'

Mr. Bérubé opened his remarks by saying that every aspect of graduate education in the humanities is in crisis, from the details of the curriculum to the broadest questions about its purpose. "It is like a seamless garment of crisis, in which, if you pull on any one thread, the entire thing unravels. It is therefore exceptionally difficult to address any one aspect of graduate education in isolation," he said.

 

Among the problems he cited were high attrition rates among graduate students, the many years it takes students to get their degrees, the need to revise the content of graduate courses so that students are prepared for jobs outside of academe, whether alternative forms should replace the traditional dissertation, and if some programs should be reduced in size or eliminated altogether.

 

Mr. Bérubé also noted the glut of Ph.D.'s in the academic-job market and the 1.5 million people now employed as adjuncts, with no hope or expectation of ever getting a tenure-track position.

 

"For what are we training Ph.D.'s in the humanities to do, other than to take academic positions in their fields?" Mr. Bérubé asked the audience. "What does one do with a Ph.D. in philosophy or history, other than aspire to teach and conduct research in philosophy or history?"

 

Some deans here said that one response to the shrinking number of available tenure-track jobs has been to guide graduate students to seek jobs outside of academe. Though that approach has generated much debate in the humanities, Mr. Bérubé said that, so far, there is little sense of what viable alternatives to academic employment might be. There also appears to be a sharp disconnection between student expectations and the realities of the job market.

 

"One criticism is that we can't simply announce that alternative academic careers are now OK without rethinking the graduate curriculum accordingly," Mr. Bérubé said. "If indeed our programs are designed to produce teachers and researchers, perhaps we need to remake them from the ground up if we are going to see them as producing teachers and researchers and something else."

 

Many of the deans were surprised to hear that much of the current opposition to alternative careers has come not from faculty and deans, but from students who are nearing completion of their dissertations. Mr. Bérubé said that Ph.D. students in the humanities feel betrayed because they "have spent their 20s and perhaps their early to mid-30s in graduate programs hoping for tenure-track jobs. They have spent their youth in the lowest reaches of the tax code, and some of them have put off having families."

 

He also acknowledged that some frustrated job seekers have blamed the MLA for not doing more to improve the working conditions of adjunct faculty.

 

At the end of his talk, Mr. Bérubé left the audience with more questions to ponder: In the future, should there be two doctoral tracks, one hard-core, old-school research with a traditional dissertation, and another more like a rigorous four-year master's program? Should academic jobs be confined only to Ph.D. holders to eliminate the "overproduction" problem? Or would that produce a shortage of professors? Should doctoral candidates who stopped short of completing a dissertation be "frog-marched" back to graduate school to finish their degrees?

 

There's no consensus on any of those questions, Mr. Bérubé said. But one thing is clear: "When we look at the academic-job market for humanists, we can't avoid the conclusion that the value of the work we do … simply isn't valued by very many people, on campus or off."

[ComeBackZinc]

But, I will shut up about it all. I don't mean to abuse the forum or make it less pleasant for people who enjoy it.

[Taco Superior]

I just don't want one of you guys to someday be the ones writing those embittered blog posts about how you were bamboozled, how nobody every told you.

 

Everyone cannot be the exception to the rule. Most people are going to be the rule.

 

Indeed. I've been building kitchens and bathrooms for the last 10 years, so if I have to I'll just go back to it in 7 years as the most overeducated tile setter in CA and chalk the PhD up to a quaint 6 year vacation! FTW!

[ComeBackZinc]

Indeed. I've been building kitchens and bathrooms for the last 10 years, so if I have to I'll just go back to it in 7 years as the most overeducated tile setter in CA and chalk the PhD up to a quaint 6 year vacation! FTW!

 

Yes! I always tell my skeptical friends: employers weren't exactly beating down my door before I started a PhD. I'm going to school full time, teaching, learning, and researching, and they're paying me for it. If it doesn't work out for me (and it very well might not), then I will look at these years as some of the best of my life. Which is why I'm so adamant about not taking on any more debt.

[Drol Noryb]

I'm pretty happy with where I ended up, but I did have to compensate for coming from a non-prestigious, small liberal arts college (though I did well there). There's been some talk here as to how general or focused the SOP should be. I think in my situation it was helpful to pitch a really specific research project, because it gave me a chance in the SOP to show engagement with the field without looking heavy-handed or capriciously throwing out names.

 

Also, for what it's worth, I only sent the GRE Subject Test (which was all right—north of 600 but not stellar) to one school and got in there. I don't know whether it would have made a difference to send it out more widely, but it might have.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Drol Noryb

[Datatape]

I'm pretty happy with where I ended up, but I did have to compensate for coming from a non-prestigious, small liberal arts college (though I did well there). There's been some talk here as to how general or focused the SOP should be. I think in my situation it was helpful to pitch a really specific research project, because it gave me a chance in the SOP to show engagement with the field without looking heavy-handed or capriciously throwing out names.

 

I had the same situation: non-prestigious SLAC for my MA, and I compensated by choosing a very specific cross-section of interests and applying to programs that were strong in one or both of those fields.  I definitely do not have a huge number of options, but one of the schools I got into is the #1 school in the country for ecocriticism, so I cannot complain about that.

[Cactus Ed]

Indeed. I've been building kitchens and bathrooms for the last 10 years, so if I have to I'll just go back to it in 7 years as the most overeducated tile setter in CA and chalk the PhD up to a quaint 6 year vacation! FTW!

Thoughts on leaving a 55k per year corporate gig for an english PhD?

[Drol Noryb]

I had the same situation: non-prestigious SLAC for my MA, and I compensated by choosing a very specific cross-section of interests and applying to programs that were strong in one or both of those fields.  I definitely do not have a huge number of options, but one of the schools I got into is the #1 school in the country for ecocriticism, so I cannot complain about that.

 

Though I applied straight from a BA, it looks like we had the same strategy and similar results. And if I had ordered my list according to schools that I honestly felt I fit most easily, it would have been the three I got into. I bet my SOP reflected that in ways I might not have even been thinking about.

[Datatape]

Though I applied straight from a BA, it looks like we had the same strategy and similar results. And if I had ordered my list according to schools that I honestly felt I fit most easily, it would have been the three I got into. I bet my SOP reflected that in ways I might not have even been thinking about.

 

Yep.  When I was applying the first season, there was a SOP workshop I went to at my college where the chair of the Russian Studies Department spoke briefly and said that he wrote a very narrow, focused SOP and did not get into many of the schools he applied to, but all the schools he did get into were exceptional fits and had faculty who were excited to work with him.

[bluecheese]

I mean, I think you can be narrow and focused in a way that also opens you up to work with a lot of faculty.