Register at two institutions?

[Andean Pat]

@Andean, I think a Euro-PhD is a bit different from a US-PhD. I can commute to the UK from just about anywhere in Europe with an airport and a library as my only responsibility is to meet with my supervisor once a month. I'm also, frankly a bit surprised at how moralistic everyone is! I understand Zabius's point that I'm withholding a place from another candidate, but other than that I really don't see the harm. Didn't you Americans coin the phrase 'business, not personal'? TakeruK's comments about full disclosure are aimed solely at intellectual integrity - and indeed, my major concern initially was was plagiarism! Anyway, I feel that maybe the whole idea and process of doing a PhD in the States is maybe too different to really make a good comparison. Do any Europeans have ideas/feedback?

 

OP, As you have seen, I am not neither European nor American. What I've learned in life, and apparently several would agree with me, universal values such as the truth have no geographical boundaries. Probably you read about this in your Political THought classes. Likewise, dishonesty has no geographical anchor. Thus it is not a matter of relative truth, it's a simple question of taking someone's money to do something that you know you are not going to do. Theft is theft here, in China, in Europe and in the US. 

 

Let me strengthen my argument: here (in Argentina) PhD programs are more open than in the US and Europe. You enrol in one university buy you are only required to take a minimum of courses there, most of them you take them in other places, wherever they are available. Furthermore, your advisor does not need to belong to that university, although he/she usually thus. Moreover, in some cases you can enrol in one university in one city and work in another. This is all agreed, it is all one paper and all the people involved know about this (advisor, committee, DGS, you, etc.). As Kira said, why don't you try telling both institutions about your plan and then you come and tell us how wrong we all are? 

[Andean Pat]

Can't edit, so PLEASE mind my typos. Serious spelling mistakes! Sorry!!!!!!

[bamafan]

The OP is obviously trolling, because no one with half a lobotomized brain would even conceive of doing this let alone actually do it. Everything about this idea reeks of sheer stupidity and immorality, and I'm willing to bet real money the OP is just here to jerk everyone's chains.

 

Move along, folks. If this idiot actually is considering doing this, then he/she deserves to get be screwed later on, blacklisted professionally, and kicked out of both PhDs. So simboxon, if you want to do it, by all means go ahead. 

[fuzzylogician]

The OP is obviously trolling, because no one with half a lobotomized brain would even conceive of doing this let alone actually do it. Everything about this idea reeks of sheer stupidity and immorality, and I'm willing to bet real money the OP is just here to jerk everyone's chains.

 

Move along, folks. If this idiot actually is considering doing this, then he/she deserves to get be screwed later on, blacklisted professionally, and kicked out of both PhDs. So simboxon, if you want to do it, by all means go ahead. 

 

I think it's a legitimate question that stems from either misunderstanding what some professors were advising (e.g., an arrangement that does not involve secrecy) or receiving bad advice. People can think up crazy solutions to serious problems, including ones like those the posters here have warned against. Either way, your language here is uncalled for.

[bamafan]

I think it's a legitimate question that stems from either misunderstanding what some professors were advising (e.g., an arrangement that does not involve secrecy) or receiving bad advice. People can think up crazy solutions to serious problems, including ones like those the posters here have warned against. Either way, your language here is uncalled for.

 

I strongly disagree. I don't think this is a legitimate question at all, unless it comes from someone who has a seriously lacking understanding of right and wrong and an equally lacking ability to analyze potential risks and consequences that stem from bad behavior. Perhaps my language was strong, but the OP's stance is just so far beyond the limits of reasonable adult behavior that it is unbelievable to me. The assertion that an advisor, let alone a professor, would suggest this is equally outrageous. Under no circumstances could I even imagine an academic, regardless of nationality or origin, giving such advice. 

[fuzzylogician]

I strongly disagree. I don't think this is a legitimate question at all, unless it comes from someone who has a seriously lacking understanding of right and wrong and an equally lacking ability to analyze potential risks and consequences that stem from bad behavior. Perhaps my language was strong, but the OP's stance is just so far beyond the limits of reasonable adult behavior that it is unbelievable to me. The assertion that an advisor, let alone a professor, would suggest this is equally outrageous. Under no circumstances could I even imagine an academic, regardless of nationality or origin, giving such advice. 

 

Actually the concept of a joint PhD between two departments is not uncommon in Europe, which is why I think it's a well-intentioned question. These things are done quite often; since there are not course requirement in a European PhD, sometimes you will get people who spend some (lots) of time in some other university (e.g. in the US) and then end up with a joint degree. It's not unheard of, and I think that's what the OP's professor was suggesting. My concern was about the need for secrecy and resigning one program at the end, which indicates that something is not right with this plan the way it's being conceived of by the OP right now.

[simboxon]

The OP is obviously trolling, because no one with half a lobotomized brain would even conceive of doing this let alone actually do it. Everything about this idea reeks of sheer stupidity and immorality, and I'm willing to bet real money the OP is just here to jerk everyone's chains.

 

Move along, folks. If this idiot actually is considering doing this, then he/she deserves to get be screwed later on, blacklisted professionally, and kicked out of both PhDs. So simboxon, if you want to do it, by all means go ahead. 

Well obviously bamafan is trolling... nevermind.

 

Thanks for all the advice, it's helpful to hear non US perspectives. I've made an appointment with the head of the doctoral school in EuroUni next Thursday to discuss, and with UKUni in the 1st week of May. I think that an open hand is probably best, and hope that EuroUni will let me work as 'associate researcher' or student or whatever. I've also decided to submit where I get the money, no need to rock that boat. This decision was made largely on the back of this discussion.

 

That being said, a couple of responses: @wtncffts: I think good schools take graduate students to do good research, to train future academics, and to contribute to academia. Universities serve a public function - the operating concern certainly should not be relative reputations etc.

@Jung&Free: I would not be "taking the money and leaving scot free" I would be putting in the work, for three years. The choice is merely about which institution I would end up wearing a silly dress for and getting a piece of paper from. @Andean Pat: It's not theft! I would do the work, and, as mentioned previously, the money is not even coming from the uni (it's governmental). Money for research is for that, for research. Otherwise we would have to pay it back were we not to complete the PhD.

 

OK, well. Thanks again folks. 

[bamafan]

That being said, a couple of responses: @wtncffts: I think good schools take graduate students to do good research, to train future academics, and to contribute to academia. Universities serve a public function - the operating concern certainly should not be relative reputations etc.

@Jung&Free: I would not be "taking the money and leaving scot free" I would be putting in the work, for three years. The choice is merely about which institution I would end up wearing a silly dress for and getting a piece of paper from. @Andean Pat: It's not theft! I would do the work, and, as mentioned previously, the money is not even coming from the uni (it's governmental). Money for research is for that, for research. Otherwise we would have to pay it back were we not to complete the PhD.

 

You would be basically leaving scot free, because your work would be split between two universities, and therefore, at best, you're being paid twice as much as you should be. 

 

It also is theft because even if it's governmental funds, you are receiving it to do work at the university paying you. Failure to do so would be a violation of the legal agreement. It's like being paid full-time to only work part-time. I did look into this by the way. I don't know what UK university you were planning to scam, but several I checked definitely have legal clauses prohibiting you from being registered anywhere else. If you do, you risk forfeiture to not only your admission but also the funding plus interest. So it is illegal, chum. 

 

The funds may be for "research", but it's for research under specific scenarios and circumstances. There are conditions attached, and these are the conditions you hope to violate by trying to mislead one university.

 

If you work out some sort of cross-admission with the universities, that's another thing altogether. But that is nowhere near the ballpark of what you planned to do originally, which I said then and still say now, was extremely ill-conceived, immature, and selfish (and not to mention, again, illegal).

[zabius]

I've made an appointment with the head of the doctoral school in EuroUni next Thursday to discuss, and with UKUni in the 1st week of May. I think that an open hand is probably best, and hope that EuroUni will let me work as 'associate researcher' or student or whatever.

 

Good on you for deciding to be open about your plan with both universities! That is definitely the only right choice in this situation. The other posters here are right... the original plan was, as bamafan said, "ill-conceived, immature, and selfish (and not to mention, again, illegal)." I hope that you can appreciate why that is the case, and that you'll think twice before attempting plans like that in the future.

 

But if you go through the proper channels and work out a plan that everyone at both universities agrees with (as it sounds like you are trying to do now), then perhaps you can set up a formal collaboration of sorts that would have you working with people at both institutions. Perhaps you can be enrolled at one and a "visiting scholar" at the other? That's not uncommon at all, and could help you achieve the same result you were looking for originally, but without being illegal, unethical, and potentially detrimental to your future. Ironing out the details of the funding is sometimes tricky in these situations, but it's not impossible. There may even be special grants that you can apply for which aim to foster collaborative research across institutions.

 

Good luck with the talks. Remember, disclose all the details and be willing to accept hearing "no" or having to negotiate. I hope you can work out something that meet your needs!

Edited April 13, 2013 by zabius