Choosing between UVa and USC

[WilliamHsieh]

    Hello everyone! I am considering several schools for PhD but am now choosing between UVa and University of Southern California. My research interest is international relations with a focus on U.S.-China relations and international security in East Asia. And I hope to build a theory accounting for the role of China in the international system in East Asia. I would like to ask if someone can offer me advice on how to choose from UVa and USC based on my interests, and considering the reputation of these schools, prospect on the job market, research resources there, and connection in the academic world. The time to make the decision is coming and I simply can’t make up my mind. I appreciate any thought and opinion!

 

    Also, I would like to ask will a stipend of 20,000 Dollars be sufficient for a life as a student of USC?

 

    I am also seeking advice if I should consider choosing other schools not offering me funding. I am also admitted to Ohio State and University of Washington School of International Studies. These places do not offer me funding, therefore they might not be the priority on my list. Yet considering that the two schools seem to be nice options as well, especially that I really want to do researches on international relations theories, Ohio State would be an ideal fit for me. I am wondering, from the perspective of fellow graduate students of political science, is it worthy to take on loans and debt to go to Ohio State? Will a degree from Ohio State give me better chances on getting a job or help me build a career in academia?

 

    Another thing I would like to ask for opinions is, what is the general impression and reputation of UW-Seattle School of International Studies’ three-year PhD? They said that this degree can be completed in three years, but I am wondering does such training in a rather shortened period of timing bring some concerns or doubts, especially on the job market?

 

Thank you.

[ThisGuyRiteHere]

You should ask Ohio state if there is a chance of funding after the 2nd yr. BFB already said in the faculty perspectives that just because they dont offer you funding does not mean they do not want you to come, they just dont have the funds.

[USCoregonian]

I did my undergrad at USC. Even though USC is not in the best neighborhood, rent is still expensive. It's not New York or DC crazy, but it can still be pricey. You could manage on 20K a year, but obviously your dollar will go a lot farther in Charlottesville. 

 

I can't say enough good things about the IR faculty at USC however. 

[ThisGuyRiteHere]

Remember that there are people on the waitlist who are waiting to hear from all of these schools. If you know you will not go unfunded, you should give them up, some people will be willing to pay for unfunded programs, but cannot because you are holding them.

 

Now I can understand taking time to make decisions between UVA and USC... I would think USC does more work with Asia, most of the california schools do...

[UVaSpades]

Let me start by discussing Ohio State and the University of Washington. Personally, I am of the mind that unless you are independently wealthy, it is never a good idea to do a PhD without funding. Ohio State is, indeed, an excellent program, and had you gotten funding there, I would recommend them in a heartbeat. But you did not, and you would have to incur a fair amount of debt by attending there, which would be difficult to recoup once you get a job. But TheMarketMan's point is a solid one, and you should look into the possibility of funding past your first couple of years. But unless it is basically guaranteed at that point, be wary.

 

WIth UW, it depends on what you want to do. If your interest is in political science and international relations theory, I'm not convinced that the Jackson School's PhD is for you due to its interdisciplinary approach. Since it is such a new program, there also will not be any sort of placement information, which makes it difficult to gauge what you should expect for return on investment, as it were (see ). But if your interest is in more traditional IR, I would probably stay away.

 

Now, comparing UVa and USC is a bit more apples to apples. I'm admittedly a UVa grad student, so my advice may be biased, which is something to keep in mind. I would say that from a substantive perspective, UVa is probably the better place to go to if your interest is grand(-ish) theories of international relations, due to the faculty we have that go in that direction. Your interest in China might lessen that comparative advantage, though we recently placed a doctoral candidate at Old Dominion, whose dissertation is on power dynamics and U.S.-China relations, so there's that.

 

When it comes to broader methods training, however, I think USC may have an advantage. UVa is still trying to put together a solid methods sequence, but it looks like USC already has one in place (though I can't find a course listing for USC, so I'm not sure how accurate that statement is). But this might be more of a temporary thing, I can't really say. USC also has their U.S-China Institute, which may provide an advantage for your type of interests, but again, I'm not familiar with how it works.

 

It's also worth your time to compare the job placements for the two universities:

 

http://politics.virginia.edu/phd_placement

http://dornsife.usc.edu/assets/sites/240/docs/POIR_Recent_Placement.pdf

 

I would argue that UVa is slightly better, though USC is by no means terrible. It's also worth considering that UVa has a reputation for better placement with liberal arts schools as well, if that's something you're interested in.

 

To summarize, I would definitely stay away from Ohio State and UW, unless funding manages to come through in the case of the former, or you decide that a traditional political science PhD is not for you and you're willing to gamble on the program (and lack of funding) in the case of the latter. Between UVa and USC, you have something of a difficult choice, though I would lean more towards the former. UVa is more highly ranked than USC (at least according to US New and World Reports), and almost certainly better for IR and security. But USC *might* be better in methods training (though UVa's catching up) and China-specific research (though UVa's definitely capable of producing China scholars and has done so in the recent past).

[Quigley]

Excellent advice from UVaSpades.

[WilliamHsieh]

Thank you guys for these helpful advice. I will not consider those unfunded schools, since it will bring a heavy debt burden for me. Yet I think if I can provide some more details of my situation, it might be more helpful for other fellow graduate students to provide me more advice. I actually have a Fulbright Fellowship to cover my studies for the first two years, yet after I asked OSU the possibilities of guaranteed assistantships for the years after my Fulbright ends, the reply is such guarantee can't be provided. I am wondering, what are the chances of obtaining these positions to support my studies if no guarantee can be provided? I remember OSU replied to me and mentioned that some of their budget has been cut and that's why they can't give me such guarantee. Under such circumstances, is it worthwhile to go to OSU without knowing if there will be funding for me afterwards? Or is it not worthwhile at all to be in debt to go to graduate school? If I were offered funding from OSU, I would have decided to study there very early.

 

Thank you.

[ThisGuyRiteHere]

You are probably not going to get funding afterwards at OSU...there is no guarantee. All you can get is Dissertation funding or a TA and there is no guarantee. IF you want to take the risk, go. IF you dont, then dont. You could do the 2 yrs and leave with a MA and reapply if you already do not have a MA.

Or why dont you just message BFB...i am 90% sure he was talking about you and your MArch 25th deadline for USC in the Faculty Perspectives thread.

OSU is higher ranked. So assuming you get funded for the first 2 yrs, and then pay for the last 2-3 yrs that is probably 80k in loans, but for a high ranked degree. You need to decide whether it is worth it to go to OSU or not. I feel like you are over complicating this a little.

Edited April 9, 2013 by TheMarketMan

[eponine997]

As much as I would generally advise against attending without funding (in the absence of independent wealth), your Fulbright Fellowship does change things.  

If after a year, if funding seems unlikely, you can apply to transfer (assuming you do well academically and the lack of funding is based on the school's budget rather than your performance) and thus avoid going into debt.  Granted, from what I hear transferring can be a painful process, but at the end of the day you have to do what's best for you, not your program, advisor or classmates.  In that case OSU might be worth it.  Similarly, if your heart is set on some school you weren't guaranteed funding to, you can attend some place where you do have funding for a year, apply to transfer and hope they can guarantee you funding when you apply with one year of grad school under your belt.  

 

As for UW JSIS... LOVE the JSIS, but I've said before, it is a gamble if you are looking for an academic placement from a school with no placement record (if you are looking to go into gov/policy research/non-prof/etc, that is another story, because the JSIS DOES have a strong network there).  Their area studies program is particularly strong for Asia/China, there are also a sufficient number of security faculty there as well.  While I agree with almost everything UVaSpades said, I disagree on ruling it out for its interdisciplinary approach.  A three year program means one year of debt in your case (and honestly, funding for a term or two is not out of the question there since they sometimes offer positions to MA candidates, it just won't be guaranteed).  When people say avoid going into debt, it means avoid 100-200k for all 5 years, I think SOME debt is reasonable though obviously none would be preferred.  

 

I would look more closely at how the placement lists were constructed for USC and UVa (and ask the departments for a more comprehensive, post-2008 list).  UVa says "typical placements for the past 10 years..." which I would assume to mean, 'the best placements over the course of the past 10 years.'  USC on the other hand seems to be more comprehensive/specific, BUT, they mention current positions rather than initial placement.  If you look at their 2012 candidates, ALL are lecturers at USC - you could interpret this several ways: 1) they ALL struck out on the job market and had to take those positions for a year; 2) the list was not updated since this time last year (just before they graduated); 3) USC takes care of their graduates by giving them instructor positions until they find jobs.  I would ask for more detail if you base your decision on placement.  

 

Honestly, if it were me (and I applied to none of those schools), UVa, hands down.  

[Mnemonics2]

Just to be devil's advocate, I would warn against other posters' comments that you are straight out not going to get funding at UW or OSU. The option is obviously there and there are OSU faculty members here that can walk you through the odds (and your Fulbright obviously changes things).

 

I would just point out a serious differential in placement....I know it is a risk to go to OSU or UW, but OSU has recently placed people at the best CHYMPS schools and elsewhere. UVa and USC are placing at LACs and lower R1s at best. It is just something to bear in mind - if that doesn't matter so much to you, then ignore this.

[ThisGuyRiteHere]

There is no guarantee for funding. So again it comes down to risk profile.

Personally, I would take OSU. But I am not afraid to take risks, especially for a top 20 degree that you will more than likely get a decent job. Especially if you have the first 2 yrs covered...But I embrace risk.

[Guest hopefulfool]

The placement at OSU is impressive, but some of them are post-docs at CHYMPS (still good). After a very quick check of their very informative website, only one has actually been placed at  TT position at a CHYMP (I am not criticizing the school this is an excellent placement record!). 

Here is the link just in case you haven't done your research before applying:
 

http://polisci.osu.edu/gradstudy/gradresearch.htm

 

I would recommend looking at the placement info of all the places you are considering then look at the "worse" place that people have ended up and see if you would be happy there. 

Also, if your real name is indeed "William" I suggest changing it to something else. You don't want to be that easily identified on a public forum. 

Edited April 10, 2013 by hopefulfool

[ThisGuyRiteHere]

I found a William Hsieh at Indiana University South Bend on the Fulbright Database...

[eponine997]

I would recommend looking at the placement info of all the places you are considering then look at the "worse" place that people have ended up and see if you would be happy there. 

. 

 

Solid advice.  Second this ^

 

and LOL at stalking from Market Man  

[Quigley]

Finishing graduate school without a massive debt burden hanging over you for the next 10, or 20 years would be a tremendous gift.

 

You only have a few days left to decide, but I also don't think anybody would fault you for taking the risk of possibly accepting 3 years of debt for a top-15 degree from Ohio State, either.  Make sure to explore all of your options before you decide so that you don't get a couple years (or even a few days) down the road and realize you made the wrong decision.  And as another poster noted above, you can always apply to transfer after the two years of your Fulbright funding are up if there truly is no funding available.  An MA from Ohio State and a stronger, better-focused research statement in two years will likely strengthen your application next time around.

 

Alternatively, in-state tuition at Ohio State is $12,000 per year (plus living expenses, of course).  Assuming your goal is an academic job, and supposing a degree from Ohio State gets you a job in your first cycle instead of your second (or third), and hypothetically helps you get hired for a better position, then the risk may be worth at least considering and exploring between now and the April 15 deadline.

 

At the end of the day, only you can know what the best decision for your personal situation will be.  Good luck!

[Mnemonics2]

^^^^^^^^ This!  I'm not sure if OSU does an MA (maybe, but I didn't think so?), but that almost doesn't matter.

 

You could easily transfer "for fit reasons" after your Fulbright is up. OSU background will almost certainly let you land at another top 15-20 school, and a top 15-20 background in general is almost guaranteed to get you a nice job (if you are in the PhD for the right reasons and don't drop out, of course). Or you get funded after year 2 from OSU anyway. Either way, you will likely still not have to go into debt to get a top 15-20 doctorate that'll likely land you near the top of the field.