Easy or Hard Major for Grad School Applications?

[rubicon89]

Cliffs of cliffs: From perspective of Grad School AdCom, does a 3.8 in Poly Sci beat out a 3.4 in Econ, everything else the same?

----------------------

Cliff notes:

-24yo, going back to finish BA/BS.

-Healthcare work background

-Plan to attend grad school directly after completion. Master in Public Health, concentration in Health Policy/Admin

-Career ambition: public health sector administration (VA, military, etc)


Q: I keep hearing that the GRE and GPA is all that matters for grad school applications, plus relevant work experience that I do have. But should I want to have an "applicable" but harder degree, or go with an easy major to score a higher GPA? I am thinking of Political Science (easy) vs Economics (relatively harder). I am so-so in math but both majors interest me and apply to my chosen career. For grad school application purposes, will a 3.8 in polysci > 3.4 in econ? Go for the higher GPA or more reputable major? This assumes I won't reach as high GPA in econ as I would for polysci with 100% effort, which I feel comfortable stating. I have interests for personal enrichment in both Polysci and Econ, but concede that Econ looks better and is more desirable. But I do not want to be a lawyer nor economist and am using the degree as a stepping stone specifically to get into grad school, in which case I feel the higher GPA is what counts.

Q: I was also admitted to a cheap in-state school (East Carolina U) and an out of state online school (Penn State). Penn State is tier 1 while ECU is a very low tier according to USN&R. Should I go to the cheaper instate school or a public-ivy-esque school? Does undergraduate name matter for grad school applications? East Carolina (in-state) vs. Penn State (public ivy). I should finish my degree in 1-1.5yrs since I have a lot of transfer credits. So I won't necessarily need a lot of tuition to finish my degree, but obviously an in-state school will still be cheaper regardless. It will not say "online" education on the actual Penn degree.

I am looking at the top Public Health programs, and assuming I have the stats, would like to attend one of the following: Harvard, Yale, Columbia, UPenn, Brown, Dartmouth, Hopkins, UNC.

Thank you for any insight!

Edited June 18, 2013 by rubicon89

[greenwintermints]

Not a political scientist or an economist (although my best friend studied both, does that count?!?!?!) but here's what I'd say, just from personal experience, talking to professors, and sniffing around here/related blogs for a bit!

 

1) Why do you think poli sci is easier than econ? I've never gotten the impression poli sci was a cushy major at all - it's a lot of number crunching and research analysis, things that I think would be useful in public health. But more importantly, I don't think you should think of them as "easier" than the other. I study both history and anthropology; I don't think one is inherently easier than the other, I think they use different skills. History feels easier to me because it uses skills I'm more comfortable with, but I don't think that makes it objectively easier, and it's kind of reductive to think of them in those kinds of terms.

 

2) I think graduate schools have a sixth sense for people who choose things because they are easy/easier, or who restrict themselves because they're afraid of doing poorly, and conversely, they may not forgive a lower GPA just because it was "harder," or pick someone with an economics background over a poli sci background if all things were equal. I really would go with what interests you more and perhaps what you're most suited to pursue and work from there. If I were in your shoes, for example, I'd pick poli sci because I, personally, would not be comfortable with the math required in an econ program. But maybe if I were better at math and thought economics was not soulcrushingly boring, I'd go for econ.  That's just me, and only you are really qualified to say what you could and could not accomplish. No matter what you study, you should make the most of it - you should challenge yourself, look for research opportunities, et cetera. (Is there a B.S. option you could pursue? Do that. Definitely definitely do that.)

 

3) Cheaper instate school, all the way. You will get a lot more out of going to a physical school - professors you can talk to, on-campus work experiences, etc. An online program doesn't really compare, and it's not like you could even get to a physical school without significant hassle. Perhaps if this were an online program at UNC, that would merit another look, but Penn State is quite far. And I've never found that undergraduate degrees significantly hurt chances of admission if the rest of your application package is strong. If you look on academia.edu or somewhere and see the CVs of current graduate students, plenty come from the Ivy League, but just as many come from your local Compass Direction State University. School's what you make of it. Plenty of Harvard grads are totally unprepared for the real world, where plenty of not-Harvard grads can run circles around them.

 

4) Obviously one person's experience doesn't mean it'll be an experience for everyone, but my brother's degrees (BS poli sci/geography, he dropped econ because he hated it) from Local State U got him into eighteen law schools, some of which were in the top 14. However, more important than the degrees themselves were what he did while getting them: he was a research assistant first for an actual professor, then as part of an NSF study; he was head writing tutor at the Local State U Writing Center; etc. Those experiences, combined with his actual coursework, gave him useful skills that law schools found attractive.  

 

Hope this helps!

Edited June 19, 2013 by greenwintermints

[free_radical]

Graduate schools want to see that you've taken upper-level (difficult?) classes that are relevant to the program you are applying to.  Basically, they want to see that you've taken challenging coursework that has prepared you.  Just make sure you do this - no matter what major you choose.  Graduate schools will look at the actual classes on your transcripts, and not just the name of the major and GPA.

 

As for school name/reputation - it does matter, but as the previous poster illustrates, it's not everything.  From my personal experience, I think the reason people from "top" schools have an advantage in getting into top graduate schools is that they've had more opportunities along to way (i.e. to engage in meaningful research, have access to more relevant internships, etc.)  So if you know what you're doing at your cheaper in-state school, you should be fine.  

[rising_star]

Cliff's Notes:

 

1) For a MPH program, your experience (work or volunteer or internship) is going to be key.

2) Pick the major that lets you take classes that will further your interests. If you don't want to take advanced econometrics, maybe you shouldn't pick economics. If you don't want to take a course on the US courts or political theory, then maybe you shouldn't pick political science.

3) Go with the cheaper in-state school. It'll be very difficult for you to get good recommendation letters (which you will need!!) from an online degree.

3.5) Penn State isn't really a public Ivy.

[rubicon89]

Thank you all for the insight. I realize I should go for the major that interests me (which is both) but at the end of the day, I want the major that gets me into a top grad program. Technically I have a stronger interest in History but I don't foresee that helping me in anyway for my career as opposed to Poli or Econ. So I wanted to maximize the path to least resistance in terms of GPA from those two majors, which is why I asked those kinds of questions in the OP. Prior to me dropping out of college, I was a pre-health major taking the science courses and did fairly well, so I am sure that I have the classes that correlate with a MPH program. But I no longer care for the strict sciences and am more open to poli/econ, especially now that I no longer want to be a clinician and want to be a healthcare admin.

 

 Why do you think poli sci is easier than econ? I've never gotten the impression poli sci was a cushy major at all - it's a lot of number crunching and research analysis, things that I think would be useful in public health.

 

Just from what I've heard from friends who have taken polisci and econ. Also a quick search on the internet shows that polisci is seen as a "joke" major while econ is highly respected and is one of the tougher, STEM majors. But I am starting to lean towards Econ even if its harder and analytical only because I find the theories more interesting. PolySci would only benefit me as someone who wants to work in government one day, but not as a potential public office candidate or anything (nor lawyer). While Econ obviously can apply to almost any real world job, which explains it's prestige as a major.

 

Cliff's Notes:

 

1) For a MPH program, your experience (work or volunteer or internship) is going to be key.

2) Pick the major that lets you take classes that will further your interests. If you don't want to take advanced econometrics, maybe you shouldn't pick economics. If you don't want to take a course on the US courts or political theory, then maybe you shouldn't pick political science.

3) Go with the cheaper in-state school. It'll be very difficult for you to get good recommendation letters (which you will need!!) from an online degree.

3.5) Penn State isn't really a public Ivy.

 

I won't have much research or internship experience but I've been working full time for a few years now at a hospital system. The reason why the online option looked appealing is because I can still work full time at my job and create my own schedule. If I attend the in-state school, I'll have to quit my current job and move to ECU's campus (far from me currently) and perhaps look for a part time job at the hospital system there, or none at all and be subject to rigid in-class scheduling.

 

I may end up doing ECU though for the reasons you stated....but my thinking was, what school has people heard of? Penn State or ECU? Penn is in the top 20 public schools (hence the "public-ivy-esque" nomination) while ECU is a relatively unknown regional school. So would a 3.8 from Penn State beat out the 3.8 from ECU, is what I am saying? And I am looking at the schools in the Northeast where the Penn brand is stronger.

 

But again you make valid reasons with the recommendations and tuition. I'm confident I can get a great recom. letter from my manager but would need a working relationship with my professors. I do believe Penn State World Campus addresses this however, as they advertise their professors' willingness to talk to students on Skype and other Social Media.

Edited June 20, 2013 by rubicon89

[Lencias]

"And I am looking at the schools in the Northeast where the Penn brand is stronger."

 

Penn State != Penn. That said, globally and nationally, I feel like the Penn State brand is stronger than the ECU brand, but the on-campus vs online thing kinda makes it a tough call... I'm a fan of on-campus, person-to-person interaction, but you might be someone who does just fine with an online program, *shrug*. 

Edited June 20, 2013 by Lencias

[wtncffts]

Just from what I've heard from friends who have taken polisci and econ. Also a quick search on the internet shows that polisci is seen as a "joke" major while econ is highly respected and is one of the tougher, STEM majors. But I am starting to lean towards Econ even if its harder and analytical only because I find the theories more interesting. PolySci would only benefit me as someone who wants to work in government one day, but not as a potential public office candidate or anything (nor lawyer). While Econ obviously can apply to almost any real world job, which explains it's prestige as a major.

 

Please kindly point me to the places where poli sci is seen as a 'joke' major. I've honestly never heard that at all. Of course, I fully accept that economics might be seen by some as 'harder' because it often requires more math than poli sci (depends on the program, though), but I take issue with your characterization of economics as the more 'reputable' or 'highly respected' discipline. BTW, unless you're using STEM in a very broad sense economics is not a STEM field. And your characterization of what one can do with a poli sci degree vs an economic degree is simply wrong. Sorry if this seems defensive but you seem to be labouring under a lot of misimpressions about these specific fields.

[nugget]

Do you find that econ courses are consistently more difficult for you and poli sci courses are consistently easier? You mention that your GPA's in both subjects differ by .4 of a point. But I am wondering if there is great deviation between your grades in each field of study or if all of your grades are fairly consistent.

 

It is possible that you learn better based on the teaching style of your profs and/or the components of the course (for instance, courses that have lots of essays/assignments vs courses with lots of exams).

 

If there is a fair amount of deviation between your grades in either field of study, try to figure out why. For instance, if you notice that your grades are higher with certain profs, carefully selecting courses taught by certain profs with your preferred teaching style may help you to maximize your GPA potential.

 

If you simply find the subject material easier to grasp in one field over another because of your individual abilities, it's your call. Perhaps you could major in one subject and minor in another to have more balance between the major you enjoy the most and the one that you are stronger at.

Edited June 20, 2013 by jenste

[rubicon89]

"And I am looking at the schools in the Northeast where the Penn brand is stronger."

 

Penn State != Penn. That said, globally and nationally, I feel like the Penn State brand is stronger than the ECU brand, but the on-campus vs online thing kinda makes it a tough call... I'm a fan of on-campus, person-to-person interaction, but you might be someone who does just fine with an online program, *shrug*. 

 

Forgive me, I was referring it as a placeholder for "Penn+State", obviously not the ivy league school. I agree that the Penn State brand is strong and it is a top 50 school (#46) even if not recognized officially as a public ivy. ECU on the other hand is ranked #199. So with all of my application stats equal, will the Yale AdCom look at Penn State and ECU the same too?...is my question. I have taken a few online courses and have done fairly well, but it would be odd to be out of the classroom full time. Though as I mentioned before I have a full time job and it'll be better for my schedule and I'd have to quit and move if I attend ECU. But at least Econ and PoliSci are less hands on than say Chemistry (my prior major), otherwise it wouldn't be offered as an online degree. Tough call indeed...

 

Please kindly point me to the places where poli sci is seen as a 'joke' major. I've honestly never heard that at all. Of course, I fully accept that economics might be seen by some as 'harder' because it often requires more math than poli sci (depends on the program, though), but I take issue with your characterization of economics as the more 'reputable' or 'highly respected' discipline. BTW, unless you're using STEM in a very broad sense economics is not a STEM field. And your characterization of what one can do with a poli sci degree vs an economic degree is simply wrong. Sorry if this seems defensive but you seem to be labouring under a lot of misimpressions about these specific fields.

 

I'm going off personal antecedents and a quick search on the internet. Two of my friends in undergrad were PoliSci majors and did very well without having to study a lot, while I was working my ass off for a B in Organic Chem II. These were your typical frat brothers who basically bullsh*t there way through school and looked forward to partying and drinking. They are successful now having recently graduated from law school, which of course their high GPAs in PoliSci helped get them to. However, I did not attend the likes of UCLA or Yale where the PoliSci dept is strong, so maybe they had it easier, and am unsure how ECU's or Penn State's are either.

 

Here's a few discussions here, here, here and here. From how I interpret it, PoliSci is similar to any other liberal arts major where you use it as a stepping stone into a grad/professional program, and those are are successful with a lone degree make up the minority. But that is precisely my plan anyhow (to go to grad school) so I am not too worried about job prospects alone on my undergraduate degree.

 

You're right it is not a strict STEM field but I hear it's one of the few liberal majors that can be compared to them. It's not a specific career track like computer engineering of course but ranks well competitively with Accounting and Finance, even supposedly having better prospects and pay.

 

I take no offense and appreciate your perspective and advice. As of this moment I feel the econ degree will give me a leg up even though its "harder" and Ill just have to work a bit more, and thus I am leaning towards it, to answer my own question from the OP. But I feel the polisci degree would be helpful as well and I don't disregard it. I just don't want to write 50 page papers lol.

 

Do you find that econ courses are consistently more difficult for you and poli sci courses are consistently easier? You mention that your GPA's in both subjects differ by .4 of a point. But I am wondering if there is great deviation between your grades in each field of study or if all of your grades are fairly consistent.

 

It is possible that you learn better based on the teaching style of your profs and/or the components of the course (for instance, courses that have lots of essays/assignments vs courses with lots of exams).

 

If there is a fair amount of deviation between your grades in either field of study, try to figure out why. For instance, if you notice that your grades are higher with certain profs, carefully selecting courses taught by certain profs with your preferred teaching style may help you to maximize your GPA potential.

 

If you simply find the subject material easier to grasp in one field over another because of your individual abilities, it's your call. Perhaps you could major in one subject and minor in another to have more balance between the major you enjoy the most and the one that you are stronger at.

 

I have taken a Princ. of Macroecon course and did very well, and it helped spark my interest. I admit I have not taken a PoliSci course but AP US Govt and Civics were my favorite courses in high school. And I've done well in similar liberal courses like Western Civilization and Sociology, plus the fact that I want to work in the public sector as a career.

 

I was a science major before, but now that I am older and a non-traditional student, I don't really want to "waste time and money" on taking a few more exploratory classes. Ive already decided I don't want to finish my science degree and am confident I can do well in either PoliSci or Econ....but all things considered equal...I feel the majority of people including myself will say that the Econ degree is harder. Thus, since my only goal is to get a high GPA, it's a matter of less than how I study or the difficulty of professor, but more so the difficulty of the subject itself. Therefore at 100% effort I feel that I will earn a higher GPA in Poli than Econ.

 

But having all that said...I am now leaning Econ anyway!

Edited June 20, 2013 by rubicon89

[rising_star]

Three things:

1) The school ranking and your GPA aren't going to matter much if your rec letters suck.  I'm completely serious about that. It's not like people at Yale are going to view an online degree that seriously, even if it's from Penn State.

2) Why are you trying to avoid 50 page papers? You know you're going to have to write those in grad school, right? Why not get the practice as an undergraduate?

3) You're overthinking this. You're trying to game the system. It's probably going to backfire.

[nugget]

If a course is really experienced as being easy by the majority of students, then the prof will compensate by making the assignments harder or using a bell curve since profs can't give most of the students As in the class.

 

I don't think it's too wise to take what other people say too seriously when it comes to choosing a major. We each have individual strengths and weaknesses. Some people love numbers and find math easy while other people may struggle to get by.

 

Go with what you enjoy doing. Usually people's interests match their strengths. If you enjoy what you are studying, you will be more motivated to work hard and your grades will naturally be stronger for it.

[wanderingalbatross]

My high school math teacher told me, "It doesn't matter where you go to college. It matters where you go to graduate school." Besides, it's not like nobody's ever heard of ECU. I'd go for the actual classroom degree any day.

[Lencias]

Relating what rising_star and wanderalbatross said: 

 

Will the PSU degree specify it's from the online program? Or is it, for all intents and purposes, the same degree someone doing the program physically on-campus is getting? 

[rubicon89]

Three things:

1) The school ranking and your GPA aren't going to matter much if your rec letters suck.  I'm completely serious about that. It's not like people at Yale are going to view an online degree that seriously, even if it's from Penn State.

2) Why are you trying to avoid 50 page papers? You know you're going to have to write those in grad school, right? Why not get the practice as an undergraduate?

3) You're overthinking this. You're trying to game the system. It's probably going to backfire.

 

I've already talked to my manager and she said that she would "absolutely be willing" to write me a good recommendation letter for my grad school applications in the future. Remember, I have years (5+) of full time work experience in healthcare which is my biggest selling point to the AdCom. I also have kept in contact with an undergrad professor from before so I am fairly sure I can get a letter from him as well. Since most grad schools require 3 letters, I'll probably just need one more to go.

 

Yes I am aware of those types of papers in grad school. But I don't think I am over thinking it and I believe it's a fair inquisition. Who know's what kinds of formulas each particular MPH grad program uses to accept students, but if it's anything like law or med school: GPA, GRE, experience, and potentially the brand name (to the lesser extent) matters the most over the major. Again, only coming from what I have heard and paroozing the law and med app forums, thus this discussion. Never the less, I thank you for your insight and will consider everyone's input.

 

If a course is really experienced as being easy by the majority of students, then the prof will compensate by making the assignments harder or using a bell curve since profs can't give most of the students As in the class.

 

I don't think it's too wise to take what other people say too seriously when it comes to choosing a major. We each have individual strengths and weaknesses. Some people love numbers and find math easy while other people may struggle to get by.

 

Go with what you enjoy doing. Usually people's interests match their strengths. If you enjoy what you are studying, you will be more motivated to work hard and your grades will naturally be stronger for it.

 

Thanks. I have decided on Economics simply because I feel I have slightly more interest in it than PoliSci, and perhaps because it will serve as a firm groundwork in my future grad app and job hunt.

 

My high school math teacher told me, "It doesn't matter where you go to college. It matters where you go to graduate school." Besides, it's not like nobody's ever heard of ECU. I'd go for the actual classroom degree any day.

 

Something to consider. Although I am talking from the perspective of the grad school AdCom and not job interviews. Say UPenn or Columbia accepts 10 Penn State students to 2 ECU students. I've actually personally talked to a current Columbia MPH student and she said that many of her classmates were Penn State alumni. So even if there are students from lower tier schools in the program, the fact that there were more seats for the bigger brand names takes weight in my decision. I want any "advantage" I can get!

 

But it is fair to consider virtual vs in-class studying. As I am part of the internet generation I feel comfortable using Blackboard and pre-recorded lectures and whathaveyou. My biggest factors now are the in-state vs out of state tuition, but am willing to pay more for the top tier name if it helps me in the future especially since I do not have a lot of semesters left to graduate.

 

Relating what rising_star and wanderalbatross said: 

 

Will the PSU degree specify it's from the online program? Or is it, for all intents and purposes, the same degree someone doing the program physically on-campus is getting? 

 

No, "online" is not specified anywhere on the degree as I had mentioned in the OP. In fact, both PoliSci and the Econ degrees are in conjunction with the College of Liberal Arts in University Park, the Penn State campus that holds the top tier rank. So yes it is the same degree as someone gets from the traditional program and will display "College of Liberal Arts" on the diploma, but no word of "World Campus" or "Distance Education". I have confirmed this with my enrollment coach.

Edited June 26, 2013 by rubicon89

[rising_star]

I should stop replying because, to be honest, it doesn't really seem like you're listening/reading attentively. So, this will probably be my last time commenting on this.

 

Three things stand out to me in your latest post.

1) You continue to speculate about how graduate admissions work. They do NOT work the same as law school or med school admissions and, as someone pursuing graduate work, you should know this. I think you're not understanding how graduate admissions works. It isn't like they say we're going to let in 5 students from Princeton, 6 from Harvard, and one from ECU. They look at the applicants and their qualifications. While there is some attention to the name of the school, much more emphasis is placed on experience, writing sample, SOP, and recommendation letters than on where you earned your degree. If you want to go to Penn State because *you* feel like the name is important, then do that. But don't do it thinking that it somehow increases your odds of getting into grad school.

If you're really that concerned, then reach out to the admissions departments at programs you're interested in and ask them. Maybe then you can get over some of this kinda ridiculous speculation.

 

2) While your work recommendation will matter, your recommendation letter from a professor you worked with eons ago will not be taken very seriously by the admissions committee, especially since you will have done more recent work that is presumably more reflective of your current abilities. In your situation, your application would probably be stronger with two professors from your more recent work since they will be able to assess your abilities to do work at the graduate level more accurately than someone you last took a class with more than 5 years ago. (Also, if you contact admissions anywhere, they will probably tell you this.)

 

3) While your degree may not say it's online, it's very likely that whomever you get to write a rec letter for you from Penn State will mention this in their letter. They pretty much always say something about how well they know the applicant and, to be perfectly honest, they will know you less well than a student that's on campus because you can't just have a chat after class, go grab a coffee, walk in when you see the door open, etc. And not having that interaction means you'll probably get a bland letter. One glowing work letter + one bland letter + one really old letter is not the best recipe for success.

 

Here's some information you may find helpful courtesy of Emory's School of Public Health:

"RSPH prefers references from an undergraduate/graduate advisor, faculty in the major field of study and/or a recent employer. Professional colleagues are acceptable as a third reference, although those listed above are preferred."

 

I'm sure you can find more info like that if you google around or read the webpages of various programs.

[juilletmercredi]

BTW, I go to Columbia's SPH.  Public health is my field.  Some thoughts:

 

1. I don't know who told you that the GRE and your GPA are the only important things for grad school admissions, but they are totally wrong.  Your GRE is probably the least important part, and for an MPH your GPA is only important insofar as you prove that you can do graduate level work.  Once you get over a certain threshold, it doesn't matter as much anymore.  I'd say that threshold is around a 3.3-3.5 depending on the program.  If this is the same person telling you that poli sci is unilaterally easier than economics, I think you need to stop listening to them.

 

2. Public health does not care what your major is.  Most PH students here are social science majors from undergrad.  Econ is a social science major, not a STEM major.  Actually here, the biggest majors represented are probably sociology, psychology, and anthropology, with some history and political science majors mixed in.  But there are people with all kinds of majors - definitely economics, but natural sciences and languages and humanities too.  There was an English literature major in one of my classes one year.  Plenty of biology and chemistry and former pre-med students.  Spanish majors.  All kinds of majors.  It really doesn't matter what you pick.

 

Political science can be a very quantitative major depending on where it's offered, and at some programs the rigor and analytical skills required make it very difficult.  Both majors are in the social sciences, as they both study the behavior of people.  Both actually use very similar research methods.  And both are writing-heavy fields, so you won't do any less writing in economics than you will in political science.  You won't write any 50-page papers, though, unless you choose to do a senior thesis.  But it just sounds like you are more interested ine conomics, so just major in economics.

 

However, given that your interest lies in public health administration, I suggest economics.  I think it will give you a better foundation for the work you want to do, and the classes you will take in HPM.  But seriously, they are not going to pass over your application because of your major.  There is no "formula."  It's a holistic application process.  Your work experience and your statement of purpose and references are far more important.

 

3. Yes, there are a million Penn State alumni here.  That's because there are hundreds of thousands of Penn State alumni.  It's a big freaking school.  That doesn't mean you can't come here from ECU.  There are also tons of people from schools I have never heard of.

 

4. Just because your diploma doesn't say World Campus doesn't mean the adcom won't figure it out.  For example, if you intend to continue working, it's going to be obvious if you worked in North Carolina during all the time that you were supposedly at Penn State.  Your recommenders will probably also mention it in their letters.

 

5. Rising_star is right that your supervisor should be a third recommendation.  You should plan to get at least 2 from professors at your new school.

 

6. I also don't think you will finish in 1-1.5 years, as most schools have a residency requirement of at least 2 years AND usually won't take more than 60 transfer credits.  So I would plan on it taking at least 2 years for you to finish, unless ECU and Penn State are quite unusual.

 

I agree that I would attend ECU, for two reasons: 1) It will cost less.  MPHs are expensive and you want to minimize your undergraduate debt.  And 2) you will get a lot more out of physical attendance.  Your letters of recommendation will be stronger, and you may be able to get on-campus experiences and internships you wouldn't otherwise get.  My undergrad is ranked somewhere in the high 70s and I'm in Columbia's SPH now.