HKS and the Mountain Of Debt

[spitts77]

This is the point I was trying to get across in my previous post. Harvard isn't that much more expensive than some of these other options, at least based on no scholarship information. Secondly, I think in IR there is probably little advantage to going to HKS over SAIS, SIPA, WWS, etc. But! what if you decide down the line that you'd like to go into business or law or whatever. My theory is that a Harvard degree with give me more flexibility down the line than a degree from SAIS or SIPA. While SAIS has an excellent reputation (in fact sometime a better one than HKS), it flies in a smaller circle. An HKS degree will be well respected in virtually any field.

Why do you say that in IR there is advantage going to HKS over SAIS etc?

[therunaround]

Why do you say that in IR there is advantage going to HKS over SAIS etc?

That's just confusing writing on my part. What I meant was that there is probably no advantage to studying at HKS over SAIS, Fletcher, SFS if you are interested in a purely international relations degree.

I think some of the concerns regarding HKS's international relations credentials are misplaced. The Kennedy School is not an International Relations school. Sure, there are many areas where public policy and IR cross paths but this is an MPP degree not an MA in IR. For me, this is actually a plus. I am interested in working for the US gov't on international and domestic issues so I am looking for a balanced education that provides domestic and international prospectives. The IGA concentration at HKS is perfect for this because it provides 6 classes focused on IR to complement my core courses and some domestic electives.

I did get a good impression from the new IGA focus. Harvard seems to recognize that it is losing students to IR programs and is currently beefing up its IR reputation. It created the IGA to do this and views the program as an alternative to IR schools. They are funding the program heavily and are invested in getting its graduates to respected positions in order to develop the reputation of the program. Seems like a good opportunity for students. But I still think IR people who are more interested in a traditional MA in IR should look elsewhere.

[therunaround]

Hi zourah/therunaround: did they state when applicants for the Catherine B. Reynolds fellowship will be notified?

Nah no word. You should call your financial aid representative.

[Rose]

I also went to the open house this past week and I have to say, I was rather underwhelmed.

Maybe I just had super high expectations (it being Harvard and all), but after sitting in on a few classes I came away kind of perplexed by the student body, and the commentary by student representatives at the panel for admitted students left me even more confused (particularly the emphasis on getting away with not doing work--I come from an undergrad and a general disposition where it's good to do work, and lots of it; granted it's not always possible to do 100% of the readings for class, but it struck me like some of the students on the panel actually reveled in not doing work). I also got some impressions talking to students later in the day who literally advised that they did *not* come to HKS "for the books" but instead for the networking opportunities.

I'm a little stuck. I feel as though, if I'm paying this much for an education, I'd like to get the education more than the networking perhaps. The IGA presentation worried me a little too, since it seemed like alot of faculty were leaving for DC and wouldn't be around next year.

I got the feeling that the IGA concentration was also very strong in domestically oriented policy toward foreign countries and in national security policy, but not so much in the policy of other nations or in global policy. Did anyone else get different impressions in their discussions? Is anyone else feeling slightly confused/stuck/uncertain??

Also--to the "mountain of debt" : I spoke with a financial aid rep on Friday and he confirmed that there is NOT merit/fellowship aid generally available for people in the 2nd year (what you get at admission is pretty much what you get). Students also said that you *can* get TAships ("CA-ships") but they pay some nominal amount (about $5k/semester) that isn't really meant to defray the cost of tuition.

[sherpa07]

Hi everyone,

So I hate to resurrect this post before HKS funding decisions are even out, but I'm curious if any current students or others know anything about how HKS calculates funding? I'm trying not to get my hopes up about funding, since if I get nothing I'm not able to go. I just want to know what to reasonably expect - $0? I'm especially curious about how much of HKS' funding is more "financial aid" than "merit scholarship." The MYFAID portal asked about a lot of financial aid-like questions, and I was a Pell Grant recipient, etc., so I'm curious how much that would change things. Any insight at all?

[biscuits]

Just read the previous entries on this thread. That slapping sound you hear is the sound of my palm hitting my face.

Folks, please don't drink the Harvard Kool-aid. Is it a great program? Yes. Will you have a fabulous network and wonderful opportunities? Yes. Is it a magical unicorn that will dust you with Special Snowflake power, granting you the ability to effortlessly achieve any job you want and make more money than anyone else who has ever held that job? No. Can you get a similar experience elsewhere? Yes. Should you accept a funded offer at a different school of similar rank versus $100K in loans at Harvard? In my opinion, yes, in a heartbeat.

Harvard is extremely good at selling the Harvard brand. I should know, Boston is the epicenter of it. Just keep in mind that Harvard itself, AND all of its alums, are heavily invested in the maintenance and improvement of that brand. Of course they're going to tell you that [X program at Harvard] is an unparalleled experience that can't be replicated anywhere else. This is true of most schools, but Harvard is particularly good at it.

I'm not able to share much insight into the nitty gritty of funding at Harvard, but I do know they had some controversy with their LRAP program a few years ago. I can't find the article now, but I believe they decreased the amount of promised assistance or something along those lines. In other words, I wouldn't rely on Harvard - or the public interest loan forgiveness program, given the current budget climate - to help you with your debts. If you are confident you will be able to bear the burden of these loans on the back of your own earning power, hop to it! If not, perhaps have a serious think about things - and try talking to some folks whose policy experience you respect, and who haven't gone to Harvard.

Edited March 17, 2013 by biscuits

[intlrlns]

Hi everyone,

So I hate to resurrect this post before HKS funding decisions are even out, but I'm curious if any current students or others know anything about how HKS calculates funding? I'm trying not to get my hopes up about funding, since if I get nothing I'm not able to go. I just want to know what to reasonably expect - $0? I'm especially curious about how much of HKS' funding is more "financial aid" than "merit scholarship." The MYFAID portal asked about a lot of financial aid-like questions, and I was a Pell Grant recipient, etc., so I'm curious how much that would change things. Any insight at all?

 

I don't know if it's possible to speculate right now on the process since it's not explained anywhere...I'm also facing the same dilemma. 

The only program that has offered me decent funding is Fletcher--19k/year. However, I think the MPP degree is a lot more value added to my experience than the MALD.... Assuming I don't get any aid at HKS the price differential is huge...but it's not like I'm getting fully funded at Fletcher either. Is HKS worth the 19k differential? I don't know. I'm trying to look more into the program, talk to some alumni etc. But if I have to take loans out anyway I'm leaning more towards HKS...of course the prestige and brandname is there but I'm not swayed by just that....19k is the closest I come to being well funded and and in the long run it may not even matter....Anyone have any thoughts?

[Revolution]

I agree with biscuits. Although the harvard name brand is huge, we're talking about policy programs here, not harvard business or law school. Think VERY carefully about amassing $100K+ debt before going to a policy program. They charge outrageous tuition, are stingy with funding, and provide little economic value to the students in return. It's sort of a pseudo-scam in this regard where the HKS people are using the overall harvard name to trick you guys.

[ridofme]

I agree with biscuits. Although the harvard name brand is huge, we're talking about policy programs here, not harvard business or law school. Think VERY carefully about amassing $100K+ debt before going to a policy program. They charge outrageous tuition, are stingy with funding, and provide little economic value to the students in return. It's sort of a pseudo-scam in this regard where the HKS people are using the overall harvard name to trick you guys.

 

I think that this is perhaps the most reasonable thing that you've said on this forum, Revolution. 

Edited March 18, 2013 by ridofme

[AUSAJAG]

Face it - HKS is not worth sticker. Sure, if you want to have Harvard on your resume, go for it. But no one looks at HKS the way they look at HLS, YLS, HBS or similarly selective programs. If you get funding to HKS and it is affordable, go. It'll be great. If not, don't spend 120k on a MPP. That's ridiculous.

[CreamTea]

I don't know if it's possible to speculate right now on the process since it's not explained anywhere...I'm also facing the same dilemma. 

The only program that has offered me decent funding is Fletcher--19k/year. However, I think the MPP degree is a lot more value added to my experience than the MALD.... Assuming I don't get any aid at HKS the price differential is huge...but it's not like I'm getting fully funded at Fletcher either. Is HKS worth the 19k differential? I don't know. I'm trying to look more into the program, talk to some alumni etc. But if I have to take loans out anyway I'm leaning more towards HKS...of course the prestige and brandname is there but I'm not swayed by just that....19k is the closest I come to being well funded and and in the long run it may not even matter....Anyone have any thoughts?

intlrns,

 

Hi, one on hand- as a Fletcher student, you can cross register at HKS 

 

on the other, 38K over two years, if I had this exact problem, as an Asian international student, I would pay to go to HKS. The Harvard name means way more in Asia and it is worth it (in my opinion and experience). 

[XYZMan]

HKS is not worth the sticker price.  As others have mentioned, it is not HLS or HBS.  The students and the training aren't better than what you see at Fletcher and other top programs.  You're signing up for added years of debt for a name that's not very well regarded.

 

On the other hand, if you want to pay tens of thousands of dollars to brag to your neighbor and your high school friends, it's totally worth it.

[Revolution]

HKS is not worth the sticker price.  As others have mentioned, it is not HLS or HBS.  The students and the training aren't better than what you see at Fletcher and other top programs.  You're signing up for added years of debt for a name that's not very well regarded.

 

On the other hand, if you want to pay tens of thousands of dollars to brag to your neighbor and your high school friends, it's totally worth it.

 

I tend to agree with you and AUSAJAG. But I want to play devil's advocate and see what you guys think.

 

1. Althought not HBS or HLS, harvard name brand still goes a long way, especially abroad

2. HKS students, especially MPA2, can take classes at other harvard departments, as well as hbs and mit, and thus taking advantage of those resources.

3. HKS does reasonably well in consulting and some other private sector jobs.

[MALD]

I agree with biscuits. Although the harvard name brand is huge, we're talking about policy programs here, not harvard business or law school. Think VERY carefully about amassing $100K+ debt before going to a policy program. They charge outrageous tuition, are stingy with funding, and provide little economic value to the students in return. It's sort of a pseudo-scam in this regard where the HKS people are using the overall harvard name to trick you guys.

 

A wise point. I feel like it is completely foolish to take out over $100k for any degree (even HKS which is definitely relying on its brand name for some of the overcharging, no?). Perhaps some of those on this message board are willing to do so because they haven't lived in the real world for more than a year or two (and don't fully understand the consequences). Debt stinks and $100k of it is just not worth it.

[Revolution]

A wise point. I feel like it is completely foolish to take out over $100k for any degree (even HKS which is definitely relying on its brand name for some of the overcharging, no?). Perhaps some of those on this message board are willing to do so because they haven't lived in the real world for more than a year or two (and don't fully understand the consequences). Debt stinks and $100k of it is just not worth it.

 

I'm not willing to take out more than $100K for any degree except top 10 MBA programs. Thankfully SAIS did give me half tuition fellowship so worst case scenario I can go there, although far from ideal.

[AUSAJAG]

I tend to agree with you and AUSAJAG. But I want to play devil's advocate and see what you guys think.

 

1. Althought not HBS or HLS, harvard name brand still goes a long way, especially abroad

2. HKS students, especially MPA2, can take classes at other harvard departments, as well as hbs and mit, and thus taking advantage of those resources.

3. HKS does reasonably well in consulting and some other private sector jobs.

 

1. I think Harvard name goes a reasonably long way. If you are an international student, particularly a rich one and connected, going to HKS is probably the easiest way to get bonafides to start governing. It really opens up doors. People who can afford to pay sticker without it adversely impacting their financial position are wise to get Harvard on their resume.

 

2. I think that taking classes at other schools is a good opportunity, but not particularly helpful in the final analysis. No one is going to mistake a HKS kid for a HBS kid because the HKS kid took a couple business courses.

 

3. True, but it is still not worth sticker. It takes forever to pay off 100k.

 

That said, to me, HKS is far and away the best public policy school in the world. There's no close second. It is just, the jobs that you can get coming out are not the biglaw or Wall Street jobs that pay well into six figures starting. Makes it hard to justify especially if you have undergrad debt, wife, kids . . .

[vincehoward]

What's incomprehensible to me is that people turn down offers of full tuition at peer schools like Duke, Syracuse, Berkeley, etc (some even turn down Princeton which should be enough to satisfy even the most brand conscious) in order to pay full sticker at HKS. And for what reason? To work for the federal government in a PMF type program? To get a non profit or city government gig? As if these students couldn't land the exact same jobs if they went to a much more affordable, or even free, MPP/MPA program. There's a lot to be said for the mass perception of Harvard that otherwise smarter than median people would opt into 100K+ of debt for a shot at a public sector job.

[zpal91]

That said, to me, HKS is far and away the best public policy school in the world. There's no close second. It is just, the jobs that you can get coming out are not the biglaw or Wall Street jobs that pay well into six figures starting. Makes it hard to justify especially if you have undergrad debt, wife, kids . . .

 

Why is it the hands down best public policy school? There are so many claims of this, but no one really explains.

[Revolution]

What's incomprehensible to me is that people turn down offers of full tuition at peer schools like Duke, Syracuse, Berkeley, etc (some even turn down Princeton which should be enough to satisfy even the most brand conscious) in order to pay full sticker at HKS. And for what reason? To work for the federal government in a PMF type program? To get a non profit or city government gig? As if these students couldn't land the exact same jobs if they went to a much more affordable, or even free, MPP/MPA program. There's a lot to be said for the mass perception of Harvard that otherwise smarter than median people would opt into 100K+ of debt for a shot at a public sector job.

 

So true. As much as I love harvard, sais is a better fit for my finance interests than HKS is. I think HKS is really for those with interest in public service and domestic policy, so for someone like me it's simply not worth paying full sticker for unless i could do a joint mba with a top b-school.

[intlrlns]

1. I think Harvard name goes a reasonably long way. If you are an international student, particularly a rich one and connected, going to HKS is probably the easiest way to get bonafides to start governing. It really opens up doors. People who can afford to pay sticker without it adversely impacting their financial position are wise to get Harvard on their resume.

 

2. I think that taking classes at other schools is a good opportunity, but not particularly helpful in the final analysis. No one is going to mistake a HKS kid for a HBS kid because the HKS kid took a couple business courses.

 

3. True, but it is still not worth sticker. It takes forever to pay off 100k.

 

That said, to me, HKS is far and away the best public policy school in the world. There's no close second. It is just, the jobs that you can get coming out are not the biglaw or Wall Street jobs that pay well into six figures starting. Makes it hard to justify especially if you have undergrad debt, wife, kids . . .

 

Thanks for your thoughts on HKS. I'm also debating the same issues but I've talked to a lot of senior folks who are convinced that the HKS network is far superior to  the others in the same category. Although I can't afford the price tag I am willing to take out loans because I'm only two years out of undergrad and have plenty of time to build my career after HKS by living a modest life. I don't mind the mountain of debt as long as I can afford a decent lifestyle and a job that I love. 

Ultimately it is a personal decision to take full tuition loans out for SAIS or HKS. I think I would say I'm being risk-averse by opting for the HKS loan. The network and recognition is definitely a good couple points higher than most others. Besides, it will really come down to how I sell myself to my future employers and how early I start networking..but the HKS tag will definitely help according to most policy practitioners I've spoken to.

Again, these are my thoughts on taking full tuition out for HKS vs. any other.  

p.s. I'm international, not rich, but have no loans from my undergrad US degree

Edited March 19, 2013 by intlrlns

[CreamTea]

I've been working for almost 6 years and that includes three years in the World Bank Group. That also includes 2.5 years in China. I would say that in China, the Harvard brand means a lot. It's up to you to quantify it but it is certainly worth at least a few thousand dollars more than Fletcher or Georgetown, etc.

 

For example, there is a government ministry here that only takes MIT and Harvard interns. I am not kidding.

 

My colleagues sort resumes (first cut) according to how famous the school is and let's face it, there are very few jobs where only MPP/MPA types apply. In most cases, lots of MBA types apply and the person sorting the resumes could have an MBA and have no clue which policy programs are best. 

 

And more examples of why it is valuable, it's very case specific I guess. Perhaps it matters more in China/India than it would in the US. 

[Revolution]

I've been working for almost 6 years and that includes three years in the World Bank Group. That also includes 2.5 years in China. I would say that in China, the Harvard brand means a lot. It's up to you to quantify it but it is certainly worth at least a few thousand dollars more than Fletcher or Georgetown, etc.

 

For example, there is a government ministry here that only takes MIT and Harvard interns. I am not kidding.

 

My colleagues sort resumes (first cut) according to how famous the school is and let's face it, there are very few jobs where only MPP/MPA types apply. In most cases, lots of MBA types apply and the person sorting the resumes could have an MBA and have no clue which policy programs are best. 

 

And more examples of why it is valuable, it's very case specific I guess. Perhaps it matters more in China/India than it would in the US. 

 

 

If you want to work in asia, then yes, taking out the loans for HKS is worth it precisely because the harvard name brand (irrespective of the actual program) is so huge there.

[intlrlns]

I've been working for almost 6 years and that includes three years in the World Bank Group. That also includes 2.5 years in China. I would say that in China, the Harvard brand means a lot. It's up to you to quantify it but it is certainly worth at least a few thousand dollars more than Fletcher or Georgetown, etc.

 

For example, there is a government ministry here that only takes MIT and Harvard interns. I am not kidding.

 

My colleagues sort resumes (first cut) according to how famous the school is and let's face it, there are very few jobs where only MPP/MPA types apply. In most cases, lots of MBA types apply and the person sorting the resumes could have an MBA and have no clue which policy programs are best. 

 

And more examples of why it is valuable, it's very case specific I guess. Perhaps it matters more in China/India than it would in the US. 

 

I think the brand name bias in China/India is unjustified to be honest. So I'm not even thinking of that because these guys here (at least in India) have no clue where the brightest minds are and take Harvard to be the golden standard. I think that's false. 

 

Thank being said, I value the incredible network that they have. If I take a loan out I'm probably looking for a job that pays in $$ initially so I'm not thinking of India right after graduation. 

 

[DaniCM]

I don't know if it's possible to speculate right now on the process since it's not explained anywhere...I'm also facing the same dilemma. 

The only program that has offered me decent funding is Fletcher--19k/year. However, I think the MPP degree is a lot more value added to my experience than the MALD.... Assuming I don't get any aid at HKS the price differential is huge...but it's not like I'm getting fully funded at Fletcher either. Is HKS worth the 19k differential? I don't know. I'm trying to look more into the program, talk to some alumni etc. But if I have to take loans out anyway I'm leaning more towards HKS...of course the prestige and brandname is there but I'm not swayed by just that....19k is the closest I come to being well funded and and in the long run it may not even matter....Anyone have any thoughts?

 

If it's 19K/year, then it's at least a $38K difference, not to mention the fact you can likely procure second year funding at Fletcher making the second year completely free. Since you can take HKS classes as a Fletcher student and will largely be in the same social circles/have the same opportunities for local internships, etc., I just don't see why you would put yourself in so much debt simply for the HKS name, particularly bc Fletcher is a top tier IR school itself.

[Revolution]

Do you guys think HKS MPA2 with no money is a better option than SAIS with half tuition scholarship? The argument would be that HKS is a better name brand, and due to MPA2's flexibility, one can take classes in econ departments, hbs, even MIT, and create their own path.