Combined grad/undergrad courses?

[shadowclaw]

I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on how combined courses work. I'm taking a limnology course that has a mix of grad and undergrad students, with the majority of students being undergrads (I believe it's around 15 undergrads and 5 grads). I'm sure I'll find out in a week when I have access to the course materials online, but I have been wondering for a while if there will just be extra work given to me (perhaps a literature review or something along those lines) or if I'll have to complete a research project of some sort.

 

Are combined courses common? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to combined courses?

 

Thanks!

[Eigen]

My experience is that there's usually something extra for grad students. In some cases I've also seen different grading scales/expectations. 

 

Most common that I've seen is getting the grad students (when they're in the minority) to teach a lecture towards the end of the class. Good experience for them, and fulfills the extra requirement. 

 

I have found being in a primarily undergrad class as a grad student to be less ideal than a predominately graduate class, as the discussion is usually better in the latter. That, and undergrads are far too worried about grades, rather than getting into the material. 

[TakeruK]

Combined courses are super common in my field. There are two types of combined courses -- 1) courses where the undergrad and grad versions are numbered differently but share some or all of the same lecture times and 2) courses that are either undergrad numbered or grad numbered but are open to enrollment for either graduate or undergraduate students.

 

In case 1, it's usually the case that there will be different requirements for undergrad and grad students, and if transcripts report averages etc. then the two courses have independent averages. In my experience, the graduate course will have fewer exams (if any) and instead, there will be more term papers and research and projects. Sometimes the homework assignments for graduate students are completely different or there may be an extra question (or fewer questions). 

 

In case 2, then everyone should have exactly the same expectations since it is actually just one course, except with two types of students. Many schools will limit the number of undergrad courses that a graduate student may count towards their degree so in many cases, grad students only take undergrad course if they were missing it in their undergrad education and need it for research or pre-req. Some schools limit the number of graduate courses that an undergrad may take too, but I think that's silly! 

 

Overall, I don't think there is any real disadvantage/advantage to the combined courses. They're a little different, but not incredibly so. Also, I feel that a 4th year undergrad student isn't that far removed from a first year grad student! At my current school though, I do see a huge difference in the mentality of the more junior undergrad students (some grad courses here are open to 2nd and 3rd year students) and the graduate students! For example, the undergrads here tend to care a lot more about classes/grades and wanted tutorials to happen on weekend evenings while grad students wanted to keep it during "working hours". Even so, I have not and would not ever factor in the fact that it's a combined/cross-listed course when choosing my classes.

Edited August 15, 2013 by TakeruK

[shadowclaw]

Thanks for the input, Eigen and TakeruK. The course is like case 1, TakeruK. It has different course numbers for grads and undergrads, but the lectures and lab time are shared.

 

I had been wondering how tests would be factored in... from what I've read on this forum, graduate classes tend to have fewer tests, so I wasn't sure if the grad students would end up having a different testing schedule than the undergrads, though I'm not sure then what the grad students would do on undergrad test days!

 

It would be nice to be able to give a lecture at some point (or perhaps an extended presentation of some sort), because I would love the experience. I've given plenty of short presentations in different classes as an undergrad, but with the exception of my senior project presentation, I don't think I've done anything longer than 10 minutes.

[TakeruK]

I had been wondering how tests would be factored in... from what I've read on this forum, graduate classes tend to have fewer tests, so I wasn't sure if the grad students would end up having a different testing schedule than the undergrads, though I'm not sure then what the grad students would do on undergrad test days!

 

When I took combined courses, grad students just got the day off if there was an in-class test. Often, the exams would be during finals period, so grad students just won't have an exam scheduled. In many classes where the grad students have a final term project instead of an exam, they would also present it during the last week of classes, sometimes a 20-30 minute presentation / short lecture if time allows, so you might get your opportunity after all! Also, in the past year, there was one experience where the grad students had an oral final exam (10-15 minutes) while the undergrads had a 3 hour written exam. I was much happier with the oral exam, personally!

[wildviolet]

I have been on both sides... as a senior and as a Master's student in combined upper level/graduate courses.

 

In both cases, many times the assignments were the same but the grading and expectations were different. For papers, grad students were expected to write more, and for presentations, grad students were expected to talk longer and in more depth. Also, during class discussions, the graduate students tended to ask better questions (in terms of getting at real understanding and not just surface-level comprehension).

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I've had a lot of experience with these type of classes as an undergrad. I took three classes, that I can remember, with 20-25 undergrads and 5-6 grads. 

 

The first class was Bilingualism. This was a summer class so perhaps that affected things. The class was exactly the same for grads and undergrads. The only difference was for the exams, the grads had a one page written/essay question at the end of the exam. It didn't seem to take them too long because they finished about 10 mins after most undergrads. The test itself was short written answers. 

 

The second class was Morphology and Syntax. Surprisingly, I don't think there were any differences whatsoever between grads and undergrads. The exam was basically drawing syntax trees. This was a spring semester class. 

 

The third class was Applied Linguistics. The exams and grading scale/expectations were exactly the same. However, grad students had to do an extra group project and present during the last week of class. They only had about 2 weeks to do the project and it didn't seem to be too in depth. The undergrads had the option of doing the group project for extra credit. 

 

I was also in a grad student (as an undergrad). The class was Second Language Acquisition. There were 3 undergrads in this class as well. The reason we were in it was because we needed it for our TESOL certificate. So the professor allowed the undergrads to drop the grad class and re-register for an undergrad version. It was the same class but just an additional course code. This allowed the undergrads to save money too. I chose to stay registered in the grad version so I had the same standards/expectations as the grad students. But the undergrads who added the undergrad version had fewer weekly reading. We'd be given about 3-5 mandatory readings (journal articles) and the ones with an asterisk next to them were optional for undergrads. The undergrads also had a shorter final paper. The grads had to write a 15-17 page paper and the undergrads only had to write 8-10. 

[shadowclaw]

Thanks for all the great input!

[rising_star]

I've taken a few grad/undergrad courses. I think, to some degree, their value depends on your background knowledge of the area. So, taking them when I was a first year MA student was very different than when I had to take one as a second year PhD student who had already completed a MA. That said, how the instructor handles it varies. In two grad/undergrad classes I took, the grad students had additional course meetings (in one class we discussed additional books, in another it was run as a journal club). The journal club class didn't have any other additional work for grad students so no research papers or in class presentations, but we did take the same in class exams as the undergrads in that course. In another, the grad students had to write a research paper, while the undergrads did not. So how the course operates will definitely vary based on what the instructor expects to get out of the class.

[pears]

I took a few undergrad/grad classes when I was an undergrad, & I'll have one this semester, too. What I found at my smaller, New England private school is the same as what I'm finding here at my new, bigger Montana public school: grad students are simply expected to do more legwork, & course syllabi spell that out explicitly. For example, in my class this semester, I'm expected to give two presentations, & my papers need to be 20 pages, whereas undergrads give one presentation & write 10-page papers. When I was an undergrad, I often saw that grad student had 50-100 more pages of reading per week in my 50/50 classes (they were already very reading intensive, but that's the nature of the anthropology beast for ya).

 

I know that at my undergrad school, grad students were generally expected to engage more with the content of readings, i.e., essentially lead discussions, think more critically, & have a wider working knowledge base to draw comparisons from. Of course, that wasn't ever outlined in a syllabus, but I think it's reasonable to assume that most professors will expect their class's grad students to be operating on a different level of intensity, since they're typically taking fewer classes, more focused on research & critical thought in their own work, & are in that program for a very specific reason.

[shadowclaw]

Well, I've seen one of my syllabi so far. Can't compare it to the syllabus for the undergrads (although I will find that out during first class I suppose), but it appears as though I will be taking exams at the same time as the undergrads, and I have paper and a 45 minute presentation to do (yay!). Not sure if the length of the paper or presentation will be different from undergrads, but it would appear that the requirements will likely be very similar for both grad students and undergrads.

 

My other professors don't seem to like using the online system for course materials, or else they are waiting until the last minute to post things. But I will happily post an update on my courses after my first week!

[Chiqui74]

My program has some (very few) combined courses. They are usually numbered separately for undergrads and grads and sometimes have an extra meeting meeting pattern for grads and always have more work and/or readings for grads.  Again, my program limits the amount of combined courses an grad student can take as they feel those courses are not the ideal learning environment for graduate students. The reason is that, since they are usually lectures, they are not well suited for discussion, plus they are concerned that graduate students may intimidate undergrads with whatever discussion they initiate.  It makes sense, I suppose, except my school has some really great undergrad courses I'd love to take but can't.

[longhornkate]

As an undergrad I took combined courses, and the graduate students had extra assignments and different expectations. Even now in my professional program, the elective courses that are combined with phd students have them doing extra work as well.