Applying twice to the same institution.

[ToomuchLes]

Do admission committees treat re-applicants the same as first timers?

 

The reason I ask is, I could possibly hinder my Fall 2013 application, complete my senior year and  raise my GPA (not to say its not competitive presently). Then in 2014, I can apply, for the first time, with a better GPA (wont be significantly improved since Im already up there, and Im close to maxing my units). I would like to say beforehand that I am aware that your GPA is only one factor in your application. Im just a tad curious on what the answer is. 

[czesc]

I would advise you to take at least a year off between college and graduate school in either case. You need some perspective on what life is like outside of school to make a serious choice about whether you want to go and, increasingly, I think admissions committees are making admissions choices on this basis as well. Someone coming straight from undergrad is an increasingly rare PhD student profile these days. 

[TMP]

I've done that for several schools.  it doesn't bother anyone, just shows how much you want to go there and persistence.  But it does help to show substantial improvement in the package including stronger SOP (yes, life experience counts too).

[annieca]

. Someone coming straight from undergrad is an increasingly rare PhD student profile these days. 

 

I second this. The new PhD cohort at Maryland is 9 students I believe. Only one of them came straight from undergrad and you can tell he wasn't quite ready for it. That being said, some students can handle it. You know you better than anyone but if you're thinking of applying to somewhere twice, I would definitely wait let things take their course, even if that means taking a year off.

[gsc]

I second this. The new PhD cohort at Maryland is 9 students I believe. Only one of them came straight from undergrad and you can tell he wasn't quite ready for it. That being said, some students can handle it. You know you better than anyone but if you're thinking of applying to somewhere twice, I would definitely wait let things take their course, even if that means taking a year off.

 

Question - how do you know the one person who went straight through wasn't ready for it? I'd really like to go straight through myself (against all advice, but anyways) but I don't want people to think I should have waited before I applied. 

[czesc]

My sense is that faculty want to relate to grad students as if they're junior faculty moreso than students, especially when you get to the stage when you're teaching (which at some institutions could be right away). A gaping generational divide and lack of professional experience can really hinder that, I think. No offense, but even if you're the world's most brilliant 22 year old history student, you're still 22, and probably lack some of the wisdom that comes with living out in the working world after college - and it's that wisdom that shapes one's adult mentality as much (if not more) than one's academic prowess. 

 

They're also looking for people with a more developed sense of purpose in grad school, which means they won't stick around so long begging for extra funding while they search for a project. Hence the enthusiasm for taking masters students who have not only thought about the research question they plan to pursue as a PhD, but may even come with teaching experience to boot. 

 

I don't see a downside to you taking a year off - I get that you might feel like there's nothing you'd rather do than stay in school, and that it's annoying to find a job in the interim, but you're going to have to prepare for it anyway, as plenty of people don't get admitted to an institution in their first round of applications, even if they don't have the "straight from undergrad" handicap. And if you plunge into a PhD for the next 7-10 years, how would you ever know if you'd have preferred to work doing something else?

[TMP]

My program tends to take on more experienced students where the average age of entering cohort tends to be around 27.  We very, very rarely take anyone from undergrad or even a year out.  We just take chances on them and see what happens.  

 

Jumping into a PhD program straight from undergrad is definitely a huge mental transition.  Those people don't think of their advisers as potential colleagues and see them as a "go to" person for academic matters like classes.  Good advisers/professors want to be mentors and they would like to mentor "teenagers," not "children."  Sure I get very lazy and undisciplined about studying for exams (and my adviser knows that and holds me accountable) but am very independent and can be treated as a colleague on many other matters, including during talks and at conferences.

 

Also, it makes for more pleasant seminar setting when students are open to being challenged by more advanced students and the professor.

[ToomuchLes]

Maybe its due to application season, and the various 'what if' scenarios constructing in my head, but Im definitely considering taking a year off. Im still applying this year, but if im rejected, I'll be alittle relieved.

Also I have a question regarding "life experience." Long story short, Im a first generation immigrant. I was born in Budapest to political active parents. Then in '93 we were forced to flee to country, and lived in an UN protected camp in Marseilles for six and half year. During this time, my father passed away due to heart complications. Finally in 2000, we were sponsored by someone to relocate to California, which ultimately allowed us to file for citizenship last year. Since I immigrated to the US, I pretty much took care of myself. At 16 I started working .. got accepted to college .. etc etc etc.

 

So can you elaborate more on 'life experience?' Furthermore, do you think I should talk about this in my statement? Overall, Im a private person when it comes to my past. I would very much like to leave my past where it belongs, so I never really talk about it in detail. Plus, if, hypothetically, I put this on my statement, and the same professor who reads it becomes my mentor, he'll pity me - which I hate to the highest degree. 

[hdunlop]

I don't know how much of that you should use or not (I think in law school it would be killer; I'm less sure for PhD). And, as a private person myself, I get your reticence. But for what it's worth, I don't think that's a pitiful story, it's a success story. I don't think professors would pity you for it unless you wrote it quite differently.

[TMP]

Maybe its due to application season, and the various 'what if' scenarios constructing in my head, but Im definitely considering taking a year off. Im still applying this year, but if im rejected, I'll be alittle relieved.

Also I have a question regarding "life experience." Long story short, Im a first generation immigrant. I was born in Budapest to political active parents. Then in '93 we were forced to flee to country, and lived in an UN protected camp in Marseilles for six and half year. During this time, my father passed away due to heart complications. Finally in 2000, we were sponsored by someone to relocate to California, which ultimately allowed us to file for citizenship last year. Since I immigrated to the US, I pretty much took care of myself. At 16 I started working .. got accepted to college .. etc etc etc.

 

So can you elaborate more on 'life experience?' Furthermore, do you think I should talk about this in my statement? Overall, Im a private person when it comes to my past. I would very much like to leave my past where it belongs, so I never really talk about it in detail. Plus, if, hypothetically, I put this on my statement, and the same professor who reads it becomes my mentor, he'll pity me - which I hate to the highest degree. 

 

Very interesting story.  If this doesn't have any relationship to your proposed research interests, you might want to share this with your LOR writers.  They have far more leeway in the length and scope of their letters.  They can contextualize your readiness for the PhD- you have enough to bring to the table and teach others about the world.

[ToomuchLes]

I already gave a portfolio containing my sample essay, unofficial transcripts, background info, where/why Im applying, and anything of relevance to my LOR writers - including phone number if they have any questions.

 

I am pursuing American history with emphasis on the Antebellum period, so its not related to my past. This might sound silly, but I feel if I mention my background, it will raise questions on why Im studying American history. Also, if I decide to talk about how I immigrated to the US, should I focus on ONE challenge throughout the essay, or talk about it as a whole and how going through such events, I became the person you see today?

 

.

 

Heres the prompt 

Personal Achievements/Contributions Statement

UC Santa Barbara is interested in a diverse and inclusive graduate student population. Please describe any aspects of your personal background, accomplishments, or achievements that you feel are important in evaluating your application for graduate study. For example, please describe if you have experienced economic challenges in achieving higher education, such as being financially responsible for family members or dependents, having to work significant hours during undergraduate schooling or coming from a family background of limited income. Please describe if you have any unusual or varied life experiences that might contribute to the diversity of the graduate group, such as fluency in other languages, experience living in bicultural communities, academic research interests focusing on cultural, societal, or educational problems as they affect underserved segments of society, or evidence of an intention to use the graduate degree toward serving disadvantaged individuals or populations.

 

EDITED

 

I forgot to ask, when you write your employment history and job placement, do you only list things that are relevant on your CV? I have quite a long list, but a majority includes working in a mechanical shop, public library, interning at several museums, tutoring elementary students as well as helping HS students to prep for the SAT, and so on. I figure it show my diversity in employment, however i dont want to clutter up my CV with irrelevance. 

Edited September 26, 2013 by LeventeL

[TMP]

That prompt is usually completely separate.  You can discuss your background for that "diversity" statement.  But your background, then, won't belong in  your general SOP.  Let your LOR writers take care of it.

 

Don't even... adcoms won't even think about why you're studying what you're studying given your interesting background!  Our minds are like zebras' stripes, we don't read and understand history in the same way.  You might come to general agreement but your path of understanding history will be different from others.

[ToomuchLes]

Thanks for all the help guys! I truly do appreciate it.

 

Earlier today, I talked to a professor about discussing my diverse background in my Personal Statement. He agreed I should since it will my application standout, but I should also tie in how I perceive American History differently than .. say a born and bred citizen. He did mention I should briefly mention why Im fascinated with American history, and more specifically, my interested time period. 

 

So my goal for this weekend is create a brief outline (yes, Im one of those people lol) of my essay, then write it during the new week. Finally, the following week Ill show it to my professor, and if he thinks Im heading down the right avenue, I'll just rewrite rewrite rewrite until Im finally satisfied with it. Hopefully by the end of October  I'll complete it. Then I'll submit all my application the first week of November. 

 

Also, I have another question for you guys. Does it make a difference when you submit your application? Each university, that Im applying to, has a different closing date - Dec 1st, Dec 15th, Jan 3rd, Jan 15th. 

[czesc]

I wouldn't have thought it'd make a difference when you submit, but it may not have been a coincidence that the one application I submitted a couple weeks ahead of schedule was the one school where I was admitted. I wouldn't be surprised if, all other things being relatively equal amid likely admit candidates in their pile, the person whose application circulated earlier benefits - maybe the department will have set the admitted group as early as possible, and only a superhumanly outstanding candidate would wind up unseating one of the members of the group at that point. 

Edited September 28, 2013 by czesc

[TMP]

I wouldn't even worry about it, particularly if you've already contacted a prof you're interested in working with.  Most faculty members don't even look at the applications until they come back from holiday break.

[annieca]

Question - how do you know the one person who went straight through wasn't ready for it? I'd really like to go straight through myself (against all advice, but anyways) but I don't want people to think I should have waited before I applied. 

 

He's got a bit of a deer-in-headlights look about him in class. It could be that this is a theory course and so it's above most of our heads, so take what I say with a grain of salt. The questions he asks - he phrases them as if he's not sure of himself and not just the material. I know that's a vague comment but it's the best I can give you without going into specific conversations. I have learned that professors in graduate school (and many in upper-level undergrad) demand confidence. Even if you're dead wrong about the comment in question, having belief in yourself and what you believe is something that comes with time and practice. It is also what sets apart the graduate student from the undergrad in my opinion. (Well, that and about 400 pages of reading a week)

[czesc]

^ I think this may vary by department, or at least by professor. In graduate school so far, I haven't really seen professors here "demand confidence;" in their role as teachers, they're usually quite gentle with students who are just encountering material for the first time, or who are reticent (for whatever reason - maybe they know these students are simply better scholars than speakers, maybe the class is outside these students' subfield, maybe some professors simply relish a "teaching moment" rather than having to listen to a know-it-all who thinks he or she has found an original way to critique the same book the prof has been teaching forever and knows inside-out). I would imagine the bias manifests itself more at the admissions level - and that once you're in, you're given more of the benefit of the doubt part of the collegial department community. That said, there sometimes does seem to be some personal favoritism shown toward more bombastic and demonstratively well-read students. 

Edited September 29, 2013 by czesc

[ToomuchLes]

@ annieca, I concur with your statement. Confidence does set apart grad and undergrad students; however I fail to realize HOW a professor, or adcoms would discover your level of confidence from your application. During interviews it would be obvious of course, but I came to believe that interviews were mostly for applicants in between a verdict of acceptance or rejection. Moreover I dont believe you can discover how confident an applicant is from their SOP, Personal Statement, or Sample essay.

 

On a side note, how long does it normally take for professors to reply to your introduction email? Fall semester started a few days ago, therefore I understand I wont receive an instant reply; however its been a little more than a week, and Im not sure if I should send another, asking if he received my original email. Advice?

[TMP]

It's in the writing.  You can discern the difference between someone who isn't sure of him/herself and someone who is willing to speak.  Good, clear, and concise writing speaks volumes compared to vague, run-on, or overgeneralized sentences without a hint of sophistication.  Good writing is much more than being able to spell correctly and use proper verb tenses.

 

Hence, another reason why the writing sample is so important; it's a piece of evidence that the student can think for him/herself and write with confidence of his/her own abilities as a researcher and writer.

[Andean Pat]

Maybe its due to application season, and the various 'what if' scenarios constructing in my head, but Im definitely considering taking a year off. Im still applying this year, but if im rejected, I'll be alittle relieved.

 

I went to grad school directly from undergrad. But in the mean time, I had this "life experience" everybody talks about (worked for ten years in teaching, for example). What it stroke me about your comment is that you would feel "relieved". If that is the case, I would reconsider my reasons for applying. If you are not THAT serious about it, bear in mind the costs in time and money, not only your own. However, if you are just a little scared, like the rest of us were (because, actually, you are taking a risk here), then you are fine. I agree, though, with this tendency that younger applicants are often "less" prepared in terms of intellectual maturity. Nevertheless, I know people that went into a PhD program with a Master's and STILL have no idea what to do. Thus, I have concluded that this "life experience", "intellectual maturity" or whatever does not develop necessarily in grad school and/or "real" life. It depends on each of us. I was only ready to apply to grad school when I was 28, so there is that maturity hahahaha

 

I think your professor gave you great advice. The point of your SOP is to show the adcomm that the best decision they are going to make is to offer you a place (with money). So, show them. Part of who you are now is your past, you should know this as a historian so, show them!  

[lafayette]

Just want to say that I'm a late bloomer (ten years out of undergrad & now starting my PhD) and definitely, definitely needed that time (I also got a M.A. in there). But there are a couple of straight out of undergrads in my cohort and you would never know it without them telling you. They're all confident, smart, and dedicated. I personally recommend taking time off to get a taste of life outside of academia, but in terms of academic maturity, some people are just ready at different times. There's no right age to apply that is applicable to everyone.