What is the Upper Bound for Number of PhD Programs to Apply To?

[MattDest]

Hmm... I feel it falls more in this order:

1. WS

2. Letters

3. Fit 

4. Luck and/or the inclinations of committee members. Example: Professor X works in ethics and hasn't taken on students for a couple of years and decides, "Hey, this year I'd really like to start working with PhDs again. Look! This person's SOP fits great with what I am currently working on and every thing else seems to fall into the standard of excellence we expect form our students: great sample, good letters, high marks, good GREs. I'll argue for their acceptance."

 

You don't think that GPA and GRE scores are weighed at all in the considerations? Fit is important, but fit isn't only accomplished by presenting a really unique SOP to each university. It can require minor tweaking, but this still isn't a reason to not apply broadly. 

[MattDest]

I think everyone vastly over estimates the WS.

 

Well, this is the part of the application that every single professor says is the most important. Nearly every admissions site says the same thing. It's hard to imagine that everyone is "vastly" over-estimating it as an applicant when adcoms are consistently emphasizing just how important they are. 

[objectivityofcontradiction]

MattDest,

 

Every one has a high GPA, every one has good GREs. From what I have been told by a few admission committee members at top pluralistic departments, the GRE and Grades are only viewed during the first round. After first cuts are made, they are no longer consulted. This is not a restatement of the common 'cut off' discussion. If your GREs are low but every thing else is stellar, you'll make it past round 1 and then it becomes all about quality of sample, letters, and fit... 

[dfindley]

do you think that a, (even self-published) treatise of philosophy -- which is original, innovative, and potentially historical in significance -- will survive an initial gpa/gre cut?

hmmm some department sites do mention that they hace accepted students with lower scores...

i think i have a good chance. 3.4 isnt low enough to dismiss the merit of my book...

[Loric]

Well, this is the part of the application that every single professor says is the most important. Nearly every admissions site says the same thing. It's hard to imagine that everyone is "vastly" over-estimating it as an applicant when adcoms are consistently emphasizing just how important they are. 

 

But i've been admitted to grad school without submitting a WS.. and am now looking for a spot in a new program that didn't ask for one either.

 

So i'm at a loss as to how it could be so vitally important in the overall process. In some fields i suppose it can hold some weight, but if the overall school needs to approve you as a "grad" then they must not weigh it that heavily since they allow many fields to not submit it at all.

 

I guess this goes back to professors not being the only ones on the adcomm.

[MattDest]

But i've been admitted to grad school without submitting a WS.. and am now looking for a spot in a new program that didn't ask for one either.

 

So i'm at a loss as to how it could be so vitally important in the overall process. In some fields i suppose it can hold some weight, but if the overall school needs to approve you as a "grad" then they must not weigh it that heavily since they allow many fields to not submit it at all.

 

I guess this goes back to professors not being the only ones on the adcomm.

 

Well, this is obviously in the context of philosophy, given that it's in the philosophy forum. 

[Loric]

Well, this is obviously in the context of philosophy, given that it's in the philosophy forum. 

 

But you still have to be accepted to both the school and the program. You're contending with both groups being represented on the adcomm.

[Loric]

I yanked this out of an email:

 

"Your entire application file will be reviewed by the Admission Review Committee, which includes a number of people: your Graduate Admission Adviser, the Director of Graduate Admission, the Executive Director of Admission, and any number of faculty from the program. All materials are reviewed at once -- in other words, anyone who examines your portfolio will also examine your other application materials as well."

[SelfHatingPhilosopher]

I think everyone vastly over estimates the WS.

 

Yeah, just nth-ing that the WS is bay far the most important piece of your application and is in no way overestimated. 

[Cottagecheeseman]

In Philosophy Phd programs, as far as I'm aware, the program makes the final offers, and that the school admissions themselves normally only care about things like meeting GPA or GRE requirements and so forth. And nearly all analytic programs in Leiter's top 50 all stress that the writing sample is the most important part of the application, so I think you're just gonna have to call this one a loss Loric.

[objectivityofcontradiction]

Yeah, Loric, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to Philosophy PhD. admissions. And to think I thought you might have some valid inside information regarding why WS may weigh less than it is normally believed. So folks, I think it is fair to say we can stick to what we have all already been told and ignore this claim. 

[Ryura]

But i've been admitted to grad school without submitting a WS.. and am now looking for a spot in a new program that didn't ask for one either.

 

So i'm at a loss as to how it could be so vitally important in the overall process. In some fields i suppose it can hold some weight, but if the overall school needs to approve you as a "grad" then they must not weigh it that heavily since they allow many fields to not submit it at all.

 

I guess this goes back to professors not being the only ones on the adcomm.

While this advice may ring true for non-philosophy degrees (I haven't the slightest clue), one thing to keep in mind is that most serious applicants to philosophy Ph.D. programs will have non-WS credentials that are far better than many other programs. That is, philosophy Ph.D. applicants are among the best overall graduate school applicants in the world. It's unlikely that non-philosophers will have much weight on the admission committees, then, since by the usual standards (GPA, GRE, etc.) virtually every serious candidate should be accepted. The writing sample and letters are the only ways for a student to stand out given such strong competition (the statement of purpose, I take it, only goes to prove one is a good match for the program, which again could only be evaluated by the faculty).

[Loric]

Over in another thread, for social sciences, someone with experience on an adcomm said the discussion was along the lines of "would you want to work with this person?" and a simple yes/no and they were in or out. They were saying this in retort to the idea of LOR's being a big factor - since LOR's never were even discussed during his time working with an adcomm.

 

Yes, each program varies in general, but even then there's different adcomms and such between schools. Making any sort of blanket statement isn't going to work. Even the most prestigious schools and programs -almost always- state they'll make exceptions to their stated score and gpa standards. And they do.

 

So for all this "you know nothing" being slung around - I do know one thing. If you can make yourself a compelling enough candidate with the materials you can tweak you can overcome the so-called "most important" aspects. The sad truth is that most people can't write well enough to make themselves look that compelling.

[dfindley]

do they ever do 'background' or internet checks?

...ive beeb pretty obnoxious on these forums. i doubt theyll go browsing gradcafe... ya?

[bar_scene_gambler]

...ive beeb pretty obnoxious on these forums.

Not going to disagree with you there. But hey, it's not like things can get much worse for your applications. How did the department chair of MIT respond to you mocking his research?

[dfindley]

he didnt.

but to be fair, i looked at his two-volume book on 'philosophy of color' and there wasnt any allusion to metaphysics. it was said they were mainly psychological and scientific .

so if he doesnt have a sense of humor about it (it really is inappropriate to call it metaphysics) then ill just count the loss as a gain.

[philstudent1991]

To the writing sample controversy: two thoughts

 

1. Other disciplines are not philosophy. Being admitted in philosophy without a writing sample is just preposterous.

 

2. The writing sample is the most important part of the application, HOWEVER, they aren't gonna read 200 writing samples, so your other credentials have to be good enough to merit a read. So in the first cut, your sample isn't too important. In the final stages tho, your sample is the most important.

[SelfHatingPhilosopher]

Over in another thread, for social sciences, someone with experience on an adcomm said the discussion was along the lines of "would you want to work with this person?" and a simple yes/no and they were in or out. They were saying this in retort to the idea of LOR's being a big factor - since LOR's never were even discussed during his time working with an adcomm.

 

Yes, each program varies in general, but even then there's different adcomms and such between schools. Making any sort of blanket statement isn't going to work. Even the most prestigious schools and programs -almost always- state they'll make exceptions to their stated score and gpa standards. And they do.

 

So for all this "you know nothing" being slung around - I do know one thing. If you can make yourself a compelling enough candidate with the materials you can tweak you can overcome the so-called "most important" aspects. The sad truth is that most people can't write well enough to make themselves look that compelling.

 

 

 

" Finally: writing sample. This is in the end the most important piece of your application -- IF you make the first cut." Michael Kremer, from UChicago

 

"Once again, I'll stress that the single most important factor is the writing sample." Alastair Norcross, from Rice University

 

"My experience is that by the final rounds of deliberation, all the other stuff has receded to the background, and the writing sample is the focus of the admissions committee members." Mark Murphy, from Georgetown University

 

"For example, when I visited U.C. Berkeley in 1991 after having been admitted, I discussed my writing sample in detail with one member of the admissions committee, who very convincingly assured me that the committee read all plausible applicants' writing samples. She said that they were the single most important part of the application. " Eric Schwitzgebel, from UC Riverside

 

"The writing sample is perhaps the single most important part of the application. It, almost always, is what will decide an application's fate. An application with a poor writing sample, but stellar letters and grades, will gain acceptance almost nowhere, since the poor quality of the writing tends to undermine one's confidence in the letters; but one with middling letters and and an excellent writing sample might still stand a chance." Brown University's advice to applicants

 

"The single most important credential in your application, however, is by far and away your writing sample. The reason for this is simple: All of the other credentials included in your application provide indirect indicators of your ability to do first-rate work in philosophy; your writing sample provides direct evidence of such an ability." U Chicago's advice to applicants.

[Cottagecheeseman]

^This

[Loric]

God, the lockstep among your ranks is just stifling. I'm sure it works for rallying the troops when other areas begin to question why your field of study even exists academically.

 

I'm curious what do the lot of you even want to do with these degrees you so desire?

Edited December 28, 2013 by Loric

[MattDest]

God, the lockstep among your ranks is just stifling. I'm sure it works for rallying the troops when other areas begin to question why your field of study even exists academically.

 

I'm curious what do the lot of you even want to do with these degrees you so desire?

[Cottagecheeseman]

God, the lockstep among your ranks is just stifling. I'm sure it works for rallying the troops when other areas begin to question why your field of study even exists academically.

 

I'm curious what do the lot of you even want to do with these degrees you so desire?

 

[Loric]

"Defense tactic is to deflect."

 

Duly noted.

[wandajune]

Loric, everyone here is defending the emphasis on the writing sample because it simply is the most important part of the Philosophy PhD application, by almost all accounts. You're in the philosophy forum. If you have a problem with us discussing aspects of the graduate application process that are particular to philosophy, or somehow are bothered by those of us pursuing graduate degrees in philosophy, I would suggest not posting here.

[dfindley]

i like loric more than i like you