Is funding negotiable?

[phdapp]

Assuming I get some admits and some funding offers for the PhD programs I applied to... Is it wise or typical to try to negotiate a higher funding package than what is offered?

 

I saw it recommended for some maters programs, wasn't sure if the same advice is true for PhD programs.

[TakeruK]

I would not say it is typical to just arbitrarily ask for more money, not like the way you might negotiate your starting salary at a job. So, if they offer you e.g. 25k/year, I would not just arbitrarily ask for 28k/year. This is because your funding likely comes from sources with set amount of money. For example, an RAship or TAship might be worth a standard amount for a standard amount of hours. Flexibility in funding comes from fellowships, and some departments have a pool of money that they can grant as random fellowships. It depends on the program though, in my department, everyone gets exactly the same amount of funding, unless you have some special fellowship that pays all of your tuition and your stipend.

 

However, I think there are some circumstances where you can ask for more:

 

1. If the stipend offer is definitely too low and you can't afford to live there with that level of funding, then it's okay to say that and ask for more. 

2. If you have an external fellowship that will pay a chunk of your costs, you should ask about relieving TA duties (still do a little bit of TAing though) and/or extra money.

3. If you have an offer from another competitive program, you can ask the school you want to go to more if they can match it.

 

But, I don't think it's worth asking for more money if the stipend is enough to live on and the difference is like 28k/year vs 29k/year. There is a big difference between poverty and living comfortably, so as long as the stipend is enough to pay for the life you want, I would not worry about small amounts like a few thousand a year. In the long run, you will benefit much more from going to the school that you prefer instead of the school that pays more (but if you can get both, then that's great!).

Edited February 11, 2014 by TakeruK

[TakeruK]

I think whether it's common or appropriate depends on the norms of your field. 

 

Some programs might subscribe to some ideal world where money should not matter at all and our sole motivation should be to our research. But I feel this is both unrealistic and unfair as this mindset favours those who have personal funds to be able to afford living on a low stipend. This would mean graduate school is less accessible to those with less favourable economic backgrounds. In addition, I also think graduate students should be considered entry level employees, rather than simply people devoted to the field (we can be both!) and like most jobs, salary is usually a fair topic of discussion before starting.

 

These beliefs are a big part of who I am and I don't really take measures to hide these beliefs (I don't over express it either), so I personally did not worry very much about what the program might think of me if I asked about an increase in funding. I also think that the number of people that subscribe to the ideal of "the ability to study your field is your payment" and/or "grad students is a rite of passage where you must live in poverty" is probably decreasing as time goes on and we have a more diverse group of people in faculty positions.

 

That said, even if it is appropriate to negotiate for funding in your field, there are still many wrong ways to do it! I don't think it would hurt to politely ask about an increase in funding if you don't think the current offer is high enough. I actually do not have any experience asking for more money by using another school's offer though. I think if you do this, you should make sure that the two schools/locations are roughly equal. For example, a lower ranked school may be able to make you a higher stipend offer because you would be at the top of their candidate pool there and thus eligible for the best fellowships while you may be an "average" candidate at the higher ranked school. You should also keep in mind the location and cost of living, not just direct numbers.

 

Finally, in my opinion, you should reserve the "this other school offered me $X, can you match that?" only at the very end of your decision making process. You should not just use other schools' offers to get schools to "bid" higher. That is, don't just do this to see how much schools are willing to pay. I think that if you are going to ask a school to increase their offer, you should be prepared to accept their offer almost right away if they do match it.

[threading_the_neidl]

In my experience in biomedical science doctoral programs, that would be a pretty big faux pas, unless you have extraordinary circumstances. For instance, if you have a fellowship that covers you 3 years and pays more than the stipend offered to other students, you might want to ask if they will meet the fellowship salary for the last year or two.

 

In general, programs have designated stipends based on their own funding (training grants, departmental resources), the cost of living in that area, and other similar programs. If you got an offer for 32k in NYC, but only 22k in Omaha, it'd be insulting to ask the Omaha school to up match the 32k - that's just not the cost of living and it would make the program advisor think twice about you.

[rising_star]

I say this every year but I haven't yet this year. In my PhD program, funding is not negotiable because everyone gets the same amount of money determined by your level (no master's, with a master's, advanced to candidacy). The only way to change that amount as an applicant is to come in with an external fellowship or on a professor's grant. I've heard that people have tried to negotiate unsuccessfully in the past because of the view that everyone should make the same amount. YMMV, obviously.

[davidipse]

Hi, if you guys know something about this (especially the humanities people) I'd be grateful if you could share: Do external fellowships typically supplant internal fellowships/assistantships, or can you hold both concurrently?

 

I know TakeruK above said that an external fellowship can relieve you from TA requirements without adding to your stipend, and the offer letter from one of my admit schools says exactly that, but—O Mammon Mammon Mammon!—I'm wondering if this policy is specific to this one school or true across-the-board. None of my other offer letters mentioned the matter, and you can imagine it would be awkward to bring it up with the DGS etc.

 

Thanks!

Edited February 19, 2014 by davidipse

[rhetoricus aesalon]

Hi, if you guys know something about this (especially the humanities people) I'd be grateful if you could share: Do external fellowships typically supplant internal fellowships/assistantships, or can you hold both concurrently?

 

I know TakeruK above said that an external fellowship can relieve you from TA requirements without adding to your stipend, and the offer letter from one of my admit schools says exactly that, but—O Mammon Mammon Mammon!—I'm wondering if this policy is specific to this one school or true across-the-board. None of my other offer letters mentioned the matter, and you can imagine it would be awkward to bring it up with the DGS etc.

 

Thanks!

 

I've been seeing the same. Part of the award is to relieve you of teaching, while still getting paid, so you can focus on your research. This is why fellowships typically are awarded in the dissertation year, or first year (to allow you to focus on comprehensive coursework).

 

But that's for internal stuff. External money, I would expect, wouldn't take away internal money.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Chadillac

[zipykido]

For a majority of programs your first year you're not being paid by any particular PI. The money is pooled by members of the department and paid out so it would be impossible to negotiate a higher base starting rate since it is the department that is paying for you rather than an individual. However once you've chosen a lab to join you are then put onto the PI's budget so they must find funding from outside sources to support you. Grants and fellowships supplant department or PI funding so it's not entirely unheard of receive more than your typical non-fellowship peers. It is under the digression of your PI to give you more money, but that funding is coming from their grants if your fellowship is less than the minimum you would normally be paid. 

 

In the case where you are not fully funded I think it would be advantageous and economical to ask for additional support. However in a fully funded program I would not consider negotiating a higher starting salary because of the technical reasons listed above, whereas in a non-funded program the PIs are typically sympathetic to your financial needs and will help you get funding to reduce your burden.  

[theogeek]

Hi, if you guys know something about this (especially the humanities people) I'd be grateful if you could share: Do external fellowships typically supplant internal fellowships/assistantships, or can you hold both concurrently?

 

I know TakeruK above said that an external fellowship can relieve you from TA requirements without adding to your stipend, and the offer letter from one of my admit schools says exactly that, but—O Mammon Mammon Mammon!—I'm wondering if this policy is specific to this one school or true across-the-board. None of my other offer letters mentioned the matter, and you can imagine it would be awkward to bring it up with the DGS etc.

 

Thanks!

In both of my offer letters thus far it says that they reserve the right to adjust my funding if I receive external awards. I am in the humanities. Mind you, I see you're in California and the schools that have said this to me are Canadian. I know lots of Canadian schools will take internal funding away if you get external but I don't know if they take away the full amount (assuming your external funding matches or exceeds what they were offering) or just part. I have heard - and this is purely hearsay - that because American schools aren't overly familiar with Canadian funding agencies, sometimes they don't bother asking about your other funding and let you hold a Canadian fellowship with internal funding from the American school. Maybe the same applies for Americans coming to Canada? I don't know if that is your situation or not but there are my two cents! No pun intended... although us Canadians did just get rid of our penny this year  

[TakeruK]

In both of my offer letters thus far it says that they reserve the right to adjust my funding if I receive external awards. I am in the humanities. Mind you, I see you're in California and the schools that have said this to me are Canadian. I know lots of Canadian schools will take internal funding away if you get external but I don't know if they take away the full amount (assuming your external funding matches or exceeds what they were offering) or just part. I have heard - and this is purely hearsay - that because American schools aren't overly familiar with Canadian funding agencies, sometimes they don't bother asking about your other funding and let you hold a Canadian fellowship with internal funding from the American school. Maybe the same applies for Americans coming to Canada? I don't know if that is your situation or not but there are my two cents! No pun intended... although us Canadians did just get rid of our penny this year

 

In my experience, Canadian schools will actually give you more money if you have an external award. Sometimes the policy is something like 10% of the external award value, or there is a predetermined increase (for the major Canadian awards). At my MSc school, the stipend was $24k/year without fellowship, $29k/year with an Ontario fellowship and $32k/year with the NSERC national fellowship (and a one-time $5k "bonus" too). At almost all US schools, when I asked what would happen with my Canadian external award, they said that I would not get additional funding. 

 

At every US school I was accepted to, either the offer letter or the thing you sign when you accept the "terms and conditions" of attending the school clearly say you must declare all external funding sources. Also, for most major Canadian based external fellowships, you need your host school to sign documents before they pay you, so it would be a little hard to hide it all from your school, and definitely against the terms of the award to hide it. 

 

I would not advise trying to be deceitful with external awards! Especially since many of these awards are given based on the credibility of researchers to use the money the way it's meant to be used and follow all regulations. I think hiding awards would be a severe breach of ethics and academic integrity!

[diasporabound]

Figured I'd post here rather than start another discussion: exactly HOW do you go about asking for more funding/ asking a university to match another institution's package?

For example, I'm comparing offers between two Ivy-League programs, and one comes with an additional five years of summer funding AND a sizable miscellaneous budget (i.e. for technology, conference travel, research). How do I initiate the conversation to see if there's room for additional funding at the school that I prefer (with the standard package)? I want to be tactful. Also, is this a conversation I have with my potential advisor, the DGS, or someone else? Thanks!

[TakeruK]

Figured I'd post here rather than start another discussion: exactly HOW do you go about asking for more funding/ asking a university to match another institution's package?

For example, I'm comparing offers between two Ivy-League programs, and one comes with an additional five years of summer funding AND a sizable miscellaneous budget (i.e. for technology, conference travel, research). How do I initiate the conversation to see if there's room for additional funding at the school that I prefer (with the standard package)? I want to be tactful. Also, is this a conversation I have with my potential advisor, the DGS, or someone else? Thanks!

 

I think you should talk to whomever you have had more contact with first (potential advisor or DGS). Eventually you will probably end up talking to both anyways. To bring it up, I think the best thing to do is to tell your preferred school the truth--you prefer their program but would like the financial advantages of the other program (higher stipend AND a research budget, which is very useful/important). 

[diasporabound]

Thanks!

[theogeek]

Just to clarify - I'm not advocating hiding awards! I had just heard that American schools don't "dock" funding for Canadian students holding award but again that was hearsay and perhaps very wrong! 

[TakeruK]

Just to clarify - I'm not advocating hiding awards! I had just heard that American schools don't "dock" funding for Canadian students holding award but again that was hearsay and perhaps very wrong! 

 

Also to clarify, I didn't think you were actually advocating that but I felt that your wording wasn't clear and that your heresay facts were wrong (as I explained in the post above) so I just didn't want other people to come to the wrong conclusion about what to do when you hold Canadian awards and are attending a US school Hope it didn't feel/sound like an attack on you, I was trying to clarify my understanding/experience with taking Canadian awards to the US!

Edited February 25, 2014 by TakeruK