Question about Phd Application

[logos0516]

Alright, so right now I'm applying to Phd programs in philosophy. For undergrad I went to Boston College, which was a disadvantage because their specialties lie in Continental philosophy, and I was interested in Analytic. This semester I am completing a Master's in philosophy from a top-15 analytic department, and I have applied to about 15 schools for my Phd. I have a solid writing sample, and my GPA is 3.83 in the Master's program, 3.805 undergraduate. I am an older applicant, and a few years ago I wrote a book on philosophical naturalism and skepticism, which was accepted by a legitimate academic publisher for publication. I included the book with my application file to a few places, hoping that that would give them evidence of my ability to write large-scale projects at a scholarly level. Now I'm wondering whether they will see it that way....will they take it into account in a positive way, or will they discard it as irrelevant? I hope I didn't hurt my chances by sending it...

[Platonist]

I think the book will surely help if it is really good in quality. Is it a piece of solid scholarly work or is it an amateur writing? If the former, your chances will be enlarged by having it sent in. 

[ianfaircloud]

Alright, so right now I'm applying to Phd programs in philosophy. For undergrad I went to Boston College, which was a disadvantage because their specialties lie in Continental philosophy, and I was interested in Analytic. This semester I am completing a Master's in philosophy from a top-15 analytic department, and I have applied to about 15 schools for my Phd. I have a solid writing sample, and my GPA is 3.83 in the Master's program, 3.805 undergraduate. I am an older applicant, and a few years ago I wrote a book on philosophical naturalism and skepticism, which was accepted by a legitimate academic publisher for publication. I included the book with my application file to a few places, hoping that that would give them evidence of my ability to write large-scale projects at a scholarly level. Now I'm wondering whether they will see it that way....will they take it into account in a positive way, or will they discard it as irrelevant? I hope I didn't hurt my chances by sending it...

 

There's no way that the sending the book itself would have hurt your chances.

 

It's about the writing sample, the letters of recommendation, and the SOP/fit with the dept.  I can't imagine that members of admissions committees would penalize an applicant for sending something extra.  I also think it's highly likely that the committees immediately discarded and forgot about the book altogether.  So while their reading of the book could hurt, I really, really doubt that anyone read it.  

 

I think you're in the same boat as many of us.  You're worried.  Your worries, though, should have to do with the things that matter.  The book won't be one of those things.

[Edit_Undo]

There's no way that the sending the book itself would have hurt your chances.

Unless it was d.findly's book.

[Cottagecheeseman]

Unless it was d.findly's book.

That's all I can think about with this, but it's not hard at all to write something better than that.

[AcademicX]

I miss d.findly...Especially now that the forums are so quiet.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Johannes14

[Table]

It's about the writing sample, the letters of recommendation, and the SOP/fit with the dept.  I can't imagine that members of admissions committees would penalize an applicant for sending something extra. I also think it's highly likely that the committees immediately discarded and forgot about the book altogether.  So while their reading of the book could hurt, I really, really doubt that anyone read it.  

 

I think it's incredibly unlikely that a committee immediately discarded a piece of an application. Of course no one would have read the book in its entirety, but I would expect a committee to at least glance at it, especially if the applicant survived initial cuts. 

[Cottagecheeseman]

I miss d.findly...Especially now that the forums are so quiet.

Hey but we did have some guy go crazy and show that rape culture is alive and well, so there's that!

[logos0516]

But the question is whether they even opened the book up. I sent a copy, with the publisher's permission, to them, even though it is not the final published version. It has all the copyright, ISBN, Library of Congress etc. numbers on it, and of course the relevant publisher's info. I just thought seeing it would be enough for them to see that, yeah, this guy has written a book that was at least good enough to get published by a legitimate academic publisher (the same publisher published a course book we're using for a class of mine this semester). But in my cover letter for the book I outlined why I was sending it, and told them to read the Preface if they wanted an idea of what the book was about. Hopefully they'll just stick to that. I mean, they *can* read parts of it, but *will* they, and will they have the *time*, is a whole other story. I'm thinking I'm lucky if they read the Preface (considering I already sent in a writing sample). Maybe they wouldn't even be *interested* in reading more of it, maybe they just don't *care* that much. But I saw someone else post in the Forum about how he self-published a book on philosophy, and he applied to all the top schools even though his GPA, GRE were pretty bad, and even though only one professor at his school agreed to write a letter of recommendation for him. To me, that's BS. No offense to that writer, but *anybody* can self-publish a book these days, that is absolutely no indication of it's quality. Actually, it is an indication of inferior quality, because even though publishing is cutthroat and most often based on factor's other than strictly merit, a good enough book will find a legitimate publisher eventually. That's why I was siked about finding an academic publisher. Now, look, I'm not saying my book is any good, that's for the readers and reviewers to decide, but I'm saying I *hope* that securing a publisher is *enough* to convince the admissions committee(s) that the book has merit. They *may* read what I told them to read, and may not. I'm just curious whether they *will* read *any* of it. 

[Hypatience]

Can you tell us more about the book or at least the publisher? I think sending a physical book along with an application might trigger certain 'crank' alarms, a la dfindley. Getting giant monographs from Unabomber types is actually not uncommon for philosophy departments, so I think it's the sort of inclusion that can easily get read the wrong way.

[logos0516]

The publisher is Wipf and Stock. I'm in the copyediting phase right now. It's a book about naturalism and skepticism, and seeks to develop a conception of philosophy as a species of "forensic" analysis and abductive inference to the best explanation from e.g. the totality of facts in a given dispute. But it also shows how often traditional armchair philosophical analysis is powerless to do just this, for a variety of reasons I don't really want to list here. The point is, the conception of philosophy as a self-standing methodology that can independently proffer insights into the outstanding questions confronting us, is wrong. Philosophy is best when it cedes methodological primacy to other disciplines along a naturalistic line that gives primacy to the insights of the natural sciences, empirical psychology, etc. Philosophy is most effective when seen as a methodological adjunct and appendix to these disciplines. So e.g. questions of free will, why is there something rather than nothing (I don't really hear much about this one), questions of the existence of God, what perception is really like (whether of an objective material world or subjective cognitive constructions), are not solvable by philosophy *in principle*. The school I'm *most* hoping the book will help me with is Princeton. It's my "dream" school, but personally, I think without the book, and perhaps with it, I would be a long shot. GPA is good 3.83, GREs are good, 1410, 6.0 Analytical Writing, recommendations are good, writing sample is really good, but ultimately not enough to stand out without the book. So at the very top schools, I'm expecting the book to do a lot of work. Incidentally I sent it to one Master's program 2 years ago when I was applying for them, and I got in to that school, even though I got rejected by a school that was ranked 15 places lower on the Gourmet Report. So, I don't really know what the book will do at Princeton or any other school. I fear on some level they are likely to see through the attempt to "wow" them, and stick with more traditional criteria they use to make decisions. Who knows. If I were on an admissions committee, and an applicant submitted a book with the publisher's information, I'd think that was pretty darn good, but that's just me.

[Establishment]

The publisher is Wipf and Stock. I'm in the copyediting phase right now. It's a book about naturalism and skepticism, and seeks to develop a conception of philosophy as a species of "forensic" analysis and abductive inference to the best explanation from e.g. the totality of facts in a given dispute. But it also shows how often traditional armchair philosophical analysis is powerless to do just this, for a variety of reasons I don't really want to list here. The point is, the conception of philosophy as a self-standing methodology that can independently proffer insights into the outstanding questions confronting us, is wrong. Philosophy is best when it cedes methodological primacy to other disciplines along a naturalistic line that gives primacy to the insights of the natural sciences, empirical psychology, etc. Philosophy is most effective when seen as a methodological adjunct and appendix to these disciplines. So e.g. questions of free will, why is there something rather than nothing (I don't really hear much about this one), questions of the existence of God, what perception is really like (whether of an objective material world or subjective cognitive constructions), are not solvable by philosophy *in principle*. The school I'm *most* hoping the book will help me with is Princeton. It's my "dream" school, but personally, I think without the book, and perhaps with it, I would be a long shot. GPA is good 3.83, GREs are good, 1410, 6.0 Analytical Writing, recommendations are good, writing sample is really good, but ultimately not enough to stand out without the book. So at the very top schools, I'm expecting the book to do a lot of work. Incidentally I sent it to one Master's program 2 years ago when I was applying for them, and I got in to that school, even though I got rejected by a school that was ranked 15 places lower on the Gourmet Report. So, I don't really know what the book will do at Princeton or any other school. I fear on some level they are likely to see through the attempt to "wow" them, and stick with more traditional criteria they use to make decisions. Who knows. If I were on an admissions committee, and an applicant submitted a book with the publisher's information, I'd think that was pretty darn good, but that's just me.

 

 

A few things.

 

(1) Was that MA program you got into 2 years ago CUNY, where you currently are at? Because CUNY's MA program is a cash cow and thus an admission there isn't really reflective of anything.

 

(2) Wipf and Stock is not going to do you any good at an analytic philosophical program, particularly if you're looking at places like Princeton. I'm afraid that hypatience's concerns are right. Were I on an admissions committee, I'd be concerned if an applicant judged it wise to send in a copy of a book from such a publisher.

[logos0516]

No, didn't send it to CUNY, but got in anyway and am attending. Who says there program is a "cash cow?" I haven't heard that before...

[Establishment]

No, didn't send it to CUNY, but got in anyway and am attending. Who says there program is a "cash cow?" I haven't heard that before...

 

Because CUNY's MA program is unfunded.

[logos0516]

Most MA programs are unfunded

[Establishment]

Most MA programs are unfunded

 

Doesn't get rid of the fact that they're cash cows, by definition of being unfunded.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Establishment

[logos0516]

If the colleges I sent my book to actually look at it negatively, then they're idiots. The bottom line is, a Master's student, not even a Phd student, who has published a book before even getting his Phd--a 132,000 word book--has done something worthy of merit, at least in the eyes of an *admissions* committee. Any admissions committee that doesn't see it that way, well, let me just say those people shouldn't be on admissions committees. I could see how more parochially-minded people at lesser schools could look at it strangely, just as, say, a groundbreaking piece of legal scholarship gets accepted at top legal publishers, but gets rejected at smaller, lesser-known publishers, but the top schools have the top people *because* they think outside the box. They're *prepared* to handle unusual things like submitting a manuscript. They know how to deal with it, and how to go through it to make an informed decision based on the totality of evidence. I can't imagine they would split hairs and actually sit there and say, "yes, well, he did publish a book on philosophy, and it has a publisher, *but* the publisher this and the author that and blah blah blah." To me, if they did that, they would be massively missing the point. The point is, HE WROTE A BOOK GOOD ENOUGH FOR PUBLICATION, and, by the way, if he can write a 132,000 word BOOK, then a fortiori, he can PROBABLY write a 30,000-40,000 word DISSERTATION. At least, that's the way I see it. I don't quite think they'll be as nitpicking and critical as some suggest. BUT I could be wrong. I have never been on an admissions committee, and have never spoken to an admissions committee member about the admissions process. It sure would help if I could. HOWEVER I am not saying at all that I am a sure thing at ANY of the schools I applied to and sent the book to, only that it will overall HELP, instead of HURT. 

[MattDest]

If the colleges I sent my book to actually look at it negatively, then they're idiots. The bottom line is, a Master's student, not even a Phd student, who has published a book before even getting his Phd--a 132,000 word book--has done something worthy of merit, at least in the eyes of an *admissions* committee. Any admissions committee that doesn't see it that way, well, let me just say those people shouldn't be on admissions committees. I could see how more parochially-minded people at lesser schools could look at it strangely, just as, say, a groundbreaking piece of legal scholarship gets accepted at top legal publishers, but gets rejected at smaller, lesser-known publishers, but the top schools have the top people *because* they think outside the box. They're *prepared* to handle unusual things like submitting a manuscript. They know how to deal with it, and how to go through it to make an informed decision based on the totality of evidence. I can't imagine they would split hairs and actually sit there and say, "yes, well, he did publish a book on philosophy, and it has a publisher, *but* the publisher this and the author that and blah blah blah." To me, if they did that, they would be massively missing the point. The point is, HE WROTE A BOOK GOOD ENOUGH FOR PUBLICATION, and, by the way, if he can write a 132,000 word BOOK, then a fortiori, he can PROBABLY write a 30,000-40,000 word DISSERTATION. At least, that's the way I see it. I don't quite think they'll be as nitpicking and critical as some suggest. BUT I could be wrong. I have never been on an admissions committee, and have never spoken to an admissions committee member about the admissions process. It sure would help if I could. HOWEVER I am not saying at all that I am a sure thing at ANY of the schools I applied to and sent the book to, only that it will overall HELP, instead of HURT. 

 

Here we go again... 

[Table]

I can't imagine they would split hairs and actually sit there and say, "yes, well, he did publish a book on philosophy, and it has a publisher, *but* the publisher this and the author that and blah blah blah." To me, if they did that, they would be massively missing the point. The point is, HE WROTE A BOOK GOOD ENOUGH FOR PUBLICATION, and, by the way, if he can write a 132,000 word BOOK, then a fortiori, he can PROBABLY write a 30,000-40,000 word DISSERTATION. At least, that's the way I see it. I don't quite think they'll be as nitpicking and critical as some suggest. BUT I could be wrong. I have never been on an admissions committee, and have never spoken to an admissions committee member about the admissions process. It sure would help if I could. HOWEVER I am not saying at all that I am a sure thing at ANY of the schools I applied to and sent the book to, only that it will overall HELP, instead of HURT. 

 

It's not nitpicking to look at the publisher before being impressed that an applicant wrote a book good enough for publication… it  completely determines what "good enough for publication" means. It looks like Wipf and Stock does some vanity publishing. If that's the case, it won't help. 

I don't think you should worry over this. If you're worried, though, it might be helpful to talk to someone in your department about it.

 

On that note… how have you never spoken to an admissions committee member about the admissions process when you're a student at a department with a PhD program? 

Edited February 17, 2014 by Table

[logos0516]

.

 

It's not nitpicking to look at the publisher before being impressed that an applicant wrote a book good enough for publication… it  completely determines what "good enough for publication" means. It looks like Wipf and Stock does some vanity publishing. If that's the case, it won't help. 

I don't think you should worry over this. If you're worried, though, it might be helpful to talk to someone in your department about it.

 

On that note… how have you never spoken to an admissions committee member about the admissions process when you're a student at a department with a PhD program? 

...Because I don't want to bother the admissions committee with questions about my application status and chances, especially when they have hundreds of applications to go through as it is. Besides, plenty of graduate philosophy schools detail the admissions process, most notably University of Chicago, and what I've read on other sites seems to corroborate what they say to a high degree. That's why. Besides, I asked a graduate admissions person back in July, well before the admissions season, and he never got back to me. All I told him was that I had some questions about the application process, and he didn't want to be bothered. So I didn't want to push my luck any further. There is such a thing as being too pushy, eager, and nosy, Double Shot...

[katethekitcat]

It sounds like you've already applied to PhD programs and submitted your book with these applications, so it seems that the questions of a.) whether or not they'll read it and b.) whether it will have an impact (positive or negative), is irrelevant, especially as discussed by a forum of people who have never sat on a PhD admissions committee.

 

My hypothesis is that your answer will come in the form of either acceptance or rejection letters.

[Table]

...Because I don't want to bother the admissions committee with questions about my application status and chances, especially when they have hundreds of applications to go through as it is. Besides, plenty of graduate philosophy schools detail the admissions process, most notably University of Chicago, and what I've read on other sites seems to corroborate what they say to a high degree. That's why. Besides, I asked a graduate admissions person back in July, well before the admissions season, and he never got back to me. All I told him was that I had some questions about the application process, and he didn't want to be bothered. So I didn't want to push my luck any further. There is such a thing as being too pushy, eager, and nosy, Double Shot...

 

but how has it never come up with a professor in your department? like when you asked people to write letters for you? 

[ianfaircloud]

I think it's incredibly unlikely that a committee immediately discarded a piece of an application. Of course no one would have read the book in its entirety, but I would expect a committee to at least glance at it, especially if the applicant survived initial cuts. 

 

I think you're half-right.  I don't think a committee would literally throw a piece of an application in the garbage.  But I think a piece could be completely disregarded, and I think a dutiful member of an admissions committee would overlook any extra pieces that do not belong in the application file.  No one should be able to gain an advantage by submitting materials outside the list of what's expected in the file.  So it would be inequitable for an admissions committee to take a look at the book, in my view.

[logos0516]

I think the admissions committee (a) disregards all information that is irrelevant to the question of whether an applicant can succeed in a rigorous and top-ranked Phd program, and ( considers any and all information that is relevant to the question of whether an applicant can and will most likely succeed in a top-ranked Phd program. Saying that a school shouldn't take a book or philosophical article published in a peer-reviewed journal into account is like saying a school admissions committee shouldn't take into account where the applicants when to undergraduate, because it will give an "unfair" advantage to some (those from better schools) over others (those from lesser-ranked schools). The entire process is about being seen in the most advantageous light, and using all your academic assets to market yourself as the best (or one of the best) candidates. Just as it is absurd to say an admissions committee will disregard evidence of publication in a philosophical, peer-reviewed journal, a fortiori the admissions committee will not simply overlook a book. They will at least acknowledge it and its relevance--as they perceive it--to the question of the applicant's merit and ability. That said, for me to get into Princeton coming from undergrad Boston College (a Continental program), the book would need to do an awful lot of work, and they would need to be REALLY impressed by it. Will they be? Personally, I think it is unlikely that that will be the case, all things considered. Like someone else said, I don't know how many cranks submit (e.g. self-published) "books" in the hopes of wowing the admissions committees, but my guess is that these people are pretty seasoned, skeptical folks who aren't so easily taken by one or another credential, however unusual or rare. I don't know, I'm in a pessimistic mood today, but that's my sense of it, at least this hour. 

[Table]

I think you're half-right.  I don't think a committee would literally throw a piece of an application in the garbage.  But I think a piece could be completely disregarded, and I think a dutiful member of an admissions committee would overlook any extra pieces that do not belong in the application file.  No one should be able to gain an advantage by submitting materials outside the list of what's expected in the file.  So it would be inequitable for an admissions committee to take a look at the book, in my view.

 

I think the situation is basically identical to submitting 2 writing samples, which some people do. (ex. if one is very technical) 

 

I'm not sure why it would be unfair for people to be able to get an advantage by submitting materials beyond what is required. You can submit extra letters, which I'm sure has the potential to sway a decision. Many applications have a specific spot to upload any extra materials you think are relevant or a place to put a link to something. These things might not get a lot of attention, but they don't seem unfair.