Studying anthropology in the UK

[motmot]

Hi all,

 

I'm hoping to re-open a discussion that doesn't seem to have been broached here in a number of years.

 

Is anyone else considering/working on a UK program/degree?

 

I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on anthropology programs in the UK, and potential strategies for bridging some of the UK-US differences in structure at the postgrad level. I know there's always the question of teaching experience, but that's one I'm hoping to broach in a first (UK-based) position or via a teaching-focused postdoc elsewhere. Maybe there are others who are farther along in UK-based programs who can speak to some of the broad differences?

 

Cheers!

Edited February 25, 2014 by motmot

[pears]

It depends on what you want to do, I think. For example, I had a friend who's specifically interested in cultural heritage management; they went to Sheffield, which was an ideal program for them. I considered Durham when I was applying to MA/MSc programs last year, as I have an interest in paleopathology, but was worried about being too restricted as far as class choices would go, and wasn't sold on the idea of going abroad for an MA/MSc. I get the impression if you have a very clear idea of not only a subfield, but a specialty within that subfield (such as paleopathology or cultural heritage management, rather than, say, biological anthropology or archaeology), some UK programs are certainly worth looking into.

[deaddog]

Have friends that went over to the UK for the Masters. They loved the experience but are disappointed now that they are being told by some of the PhD programs they will need to redo a masters over here first.

[NoSleepTilBreuckelen]

Have friends that went over to the UK for the Masters. They loved the experience but are disappointed now that they are being told by some of the PhD programs they will need to redo a masters over here first.

 

This may not just be a UK Masters thing. There are lot of US PhD programs that have students who come in with Masters (whether from the US or UK or elsewhere) earn another Masters on the way to their PhD.

 

You may have already seen this, but there's more on the upsides (more opportunities for research and publishing) and downsides (often less funding offered for terminal MA, having to do a second Masters en route to PhD) of the terminal MA program here: 

[bloomquish]

I am interested in this as well. I've considered doing an MRes (12 mo full-time) in the UK but probably would not go for the full PhD having heard about the difficulty of transferring experience and the degree title into the US academic job market. At the end of an MRes you'd have a research proposal and some intro courses. However, if you're interested in applying immediately to US PhD programs, like I am, you'd be applying just several months after beginning the program. I suspect it would be tough if you anticipated producing an essay and getting recommendations so soon after your arrival. One of the reasons the 12-month program appeals to me is because I think my application materials are fairly strong and it would just be great to be in a program this year and to have some new work and contacts next year. 

[anthropologygeek]

I know alot of schools don't treat a UK masters any differently than a US

[twoforonespecial]

I cannot tell you how much you should stay away from UK schools -- I'm at one now for a taught Master's (MPhil), not disclosing which, but it's been terrible. Also, if you want to work in the US eventually then getting a UK PhD is basically kissing that possibility right out the window. 

[Kaitri]

Why does a MA or PhD (or MPhil/DPhil) from a UK university prevent you from teaching in the US? I was planning on applying to some UK programs, so I would love to get a better understanding of this issue.

[twoforonespecial]

The program is only 3 years and therefore much less rigorous than a US degree, and coming out people generally don't produce publishable material. Plus, you don't do ANY teaching as a PhD student which disqualifies you from teaching at a US school. You'll have to do one or two postdocs, publish a lot of material, and get a lot of good teaching experience before you'll be qualified for a position at a major research university (or even more so a liberal arts school focused on teaching) in the US. That said, if you just plan on doing a master's it won't ruin you, but master's degrees in the UK are cash cows for departments and are generally badly organized.

[NicoleNeolithic]

The program is only 3 years and therefore much less rigorous than a US degree, and coming out people generally don't produce publishable material. Plus, you don't do ANY teaching as a PhD student which disqualifies you from teaching at a US school. You'll have to do one or two postdocs, publish a lot of material, and get a lot of good teaching experience before you'll be qualified for a position at a major research university (or even more so a liberal arts school focused on teaching) in the US. That said, if you just plan on doing a master's it won't ruin you, but master's degrees in the UK are cash cows for departments and are generally badly organized.

 

This is vastly untrue.  I am sorry you have had a bad experience in the UK, however I am certain that this is not indicative of all UK Masters programmes.  I have two Masters from the UK and each has been well organised and well taught - they are what you make of them.

 

In terms of Ph.D. teaching - it depends on what school you are at, but generally you have the opportunity to gain some experience - taking tutorials etc, which are similar to sections in the US.  UK doctoral students are very much encouraged to publish, I have not heard of any university where this is not the case.  

 

I do agree that many Masters programmes are cash cows, but that is the case everywhere, especially in the US where I am currently studying.

[fasboo]

Yah i was also thinking of getting a MRes since i didnt have much luck with US PhD this year - although still waitlisted at Stanford, i already have a MSc from SOAS in Dev Studies - it was okay, i think the teachers and course material is as good as anywhere. Network is also good. However, teaching style can be challening because i think professors in the US have better seminar and mentorship skills.

I was thinking of a MRes in Anthropology and then applying to Anthro PhD in US again if this year totally doesnt workout - at least i will get to develop my topic. Yah but i  would not do a Phd from UK/Europe - not the same training at all.

I have a lot field, research experience - im 30 mins away from field site right now - so its also a very different ball game for me - i just want to get some more research methods experience and start ethnography work in the communities i work in.

 

So I would UK masters as a stepping stone, but not in end game in higher education training. The only thing for US citizens is limited scholarships etc. 

[twoforonespecial]

This is vastly untrue.  I am sorry you have had a bad experience in the UK, however I am certain that this is not indicative of all UK Masters programmes.  I have two Masters from the UK and each has been well organised and well taught - they are what you make of them.

 

In terms of Ph.D. teaching - it depends on what school you are at, but generally you have the opportunity to gain some experience - taking tutorials etc, which are similar to sections in the US.  UK doctoral students are very much encouraged to publish, I have not heard of any university where this is not the case.  

 

I do agree that many Masters programmes are cash cows, but that is the case everywhere, especially in the US where I am currently studying.

 

It's not really worth getting into a debate over this because I know everyone has their own experiences. Doing degrees in the UK is great for people who want to teach in the UK. For someone like me, doing linguistic anthropology, it doesn't make sense to stay. Not to mention the profound dissatisfaction me and everyone in my cohort has felt with the structure and teaching in our program. UK professors generally don't put much effort into teaching WELL -- they prefer to read out pre-written scripts, shy away from interactive techniques, and are generally checked out in seminars. They don't feel the need to invest in master's students because they are focused on their own work and possibly advising their PhD students. It's a completely different experience from studying in the US, which I'm sure you would agree with. Since someone started this thread with the intention of hearing people's experiences about differences in US/UK degrees, I felt compelled to share my thoughts because I wish someone would have done the same for me. 

[fasboo]

It's not really worth getting into a debate over this because I know everyone has their own experiences. Doing degrees in the UK is great for people who want to teach in the UK. For someone like me, doing linguistic anthropology, it doesn't make sense to stay. Not to mention the profound dissatisfaction me and everyone in my cohort has felt with the structure and teaching in our program. UK professors generally don't put much effort into teaching WELL -- they prefer to read out pre-written scripts, shy away from interactive techniques, and are generally checked out in seminars. They don't feel the need to invest in master's students because they are focused on their own work and possibly advising their PhD students. It's a completely different experience from studying in the US, which I'm sure you would agree with. Since someone started this thread with the intention of hearing people's experiences about differences in US/UK degrees, I felt compelled to share my thoughts because I wish someone would have done the same for me.

Twoforone - I would agree with you 100% on the relative of quality of teaching to US.

[anthroflea]

I think there are a ton of misunderstandings when it comes to differences in UK and US degrees. It all startes with the BA/BS, really. Not everybody who has finished school with a good grade in the UK will automatically have the chance to apply to university. There are certain prerequisites which have to be fulfilled while still in school. The most common way to qualify for university is by taking A-Level (advanced level) classes while still attending the equivalent of high school. These A-Level classes are similar to the core curriculum classes one would take at a US university. So UK students tend to get through undergrad faster than US students. (The same is actually often true for UK students who attend US universities. They often don't have to take a number of core classes because their "high school" classes transfer). 

 

Because people in the US take core classes for so long, they have the option to change their major more than once while in university. This is different at most European universities where you can change your major, but you will frequently have to start from scratch if you do that. So, in the US, undergrads tend to use university as a chance to find themselves and explore more about their interests and in the UK/other European programs, students are expected to be much surer about their professional path from the beginning. So UK students usually finish their undergrad in 3 years.

 

The MA/MSc programs offered in the UK which are just one year are often simply more condensed and people either concentrate on taking classes or doing their own research. (Whereas in the US many students do both). 

 

The reason people tend to get through a UK  PhD faster than their US equivalents is not so much more or less rigour on one side or the other. It is a difference in academic culture. In the UK, students tend to be accepted for a very specific project. They either propose this project before they are admitted, or their POI accepts them for a very specific research project they have in mind. This is actually the case in many European countries. PhD students are often considered to be an apprentice/intern who works for their professor. In the US, in contrast, this is often more of a teacher-student relationship where the student is trying to find his/her own path in academia.

 

So this is absolutely not a difference in rigour, but just a difference in culture. 

 

Most industrialized nations introduced the BA/MA/PhD system so students could freely transfer from one country to another. However, many universities don't really feel like bothering with international transfers since stuff like the types of classes you take are still very different.  So going from a BA in one country to an MA in another, is not as easy as it should be. It can be done, however, and I know plenty of people who have moved from one country to another. 

 

I have spent the last few weeks looking through faculty CVs of big anthropology departments and there are plenty of people with UK PhDs who teach at US institutions. I can't rememer exactly at which schools now, but I saw people from LES (London School of Economics) are teaching at a number of ivy US schools. If you look at international rankings, many UK schools will rank very highly and LES is one of those. 

 

One thing to consider here, however, is that networking is a super important component in the job search. So the geographical region where you spin your social net can be important. 

[anthroflea]

It's not really worth getting into a debate over this because I know everyone has their own experiences. Doing degrees in the UK is great for people who want to teach in the UK. For someone like me, doing linguistic anthropology, it doesn't make sense to stay. Not to mention the profound dissatisfaction me and everyone in my cohort has felt with the structure and teaching in our program. UK professors generally don't put much effort into teaching WELL -- they prefer to read out pre-written scripts, shy away from interactive techniques, and are generally checked out in seminars. They don't feel the need to invest in master's students because they are focused on their own work and possibly advising their PhD students. It's a completely different experience from studying in the US, which I'm sure you would agree with. Since someone started this thread with the intention of hearing people's experiences about differences in US/UK degrees, I felt compelled to share my thoughts because I wish someone would have done the same for me. 

 

Yes, there often is a difference in quality of teaching. (I would be very careful in generalizing this. I have taken a summer class with a professor who held some of the most AMAZING lectures I have every heard).

 

I think this is a difference in culture, also. In many European countries, such as the UK, there are a lot fewer universities per high school graduate than in the US. This has a lot to do with the US philosophy of givingt he same chance to everybody. Almost everyone who has earned their high school diploma can find a US university or community college which will accept them. Then, of course, they actually have to make it THROUGH the program. In many European countries you have a much smaller number of universities per high school student and students are much more carefully selected. (I am looking at it as a whole, obviously there are extremely selective programs in the US). But more of the students selected tend to make it to their degree. So, there is absolutely no difference in rigour, simply a difference in culture. 

 

Similarly with graduate school. It might seem that it is easier to get into a UK program. HOWEVER, in the UK, the hard part is actually getting funding. Schools tend to be very selective in that respect. 

 

Also, at most European universities, the lectures are supposed to be more of a guide. You go to a lecture, take notes, and then go home and read about the subject. In the US, students concentrate on just a few lectures in the semester which they attend very frequently and they expect to learn everything they need to know in those lectures. 

 

Now, since you have a lot less universities, the professors there tend to be the people who are at the top of their game. They are often full professors who have published a few books and define their success not in how many students attend their lectures. In the US, since there are so many universities, the climate is a lot more competitive and university teaching is regarded much more of a public service profession. So, in the UK you will have your rock star grumpy old man who still uses physical slides and in the US you can have the young, energetic assistant professor who is motivated and has fun teaching. This is an extreme overgeneralization, of course, and you have both things on both sides of the pond. 

[nonameplease]

I'm doing a taught Master's at a Russell's group Uni after an undergrad at the University of California. I'd say that many of the preceding posts seem to be rationalizations and then some  are actual experience. While I have yet to graduate (let alone take my MA for a test drive out in the job market) there is one thing I know- you have to first of all apply and then you have to sell yourself. It's not so much the degree, it's who you know and how you present yourself and ultimately taking the degree and the knowledge gained and applying it to whatever job you are doing.
 
Students graduating from my department are like students from any school stateside- the ones who are good at identifying goals and working toward them are not sorely disappointed that they took a degree. The ones that looked at the degree as a bonafide credential or a ticket to the next phase... well it doesn't seem to work that way.
 
Bit of truth- social anthropology (that's what they call it over here) and the  degree are constructed to be a step in the career pathway to being a professor. The  demand for teaching staff... well, um "would you like fries with that" is something to think about- the structural faults of the education system both in the US and the UK are now at point where blaming the institution, the individual or the degree itself is just plain stupid. All the notions of education= something tangible... well, that probably hasn't been the case for years. Conversely, degrees still help get jobs- finding the balance and leaving behind the myth really helps.
 
We went and became educated- we can write, work with ideas with a great deal of sophitication and therefore are employable.
 
The sooner you identify exactly what your goal is and exactly how the degree benefits you along with the chances of successfully completing the degree without a huge debt the better the experience will be ( hint: if you're already in debt- taking on additional tens of 1000's is worse than smoking meth- it just is, don't argue).
 
My reasons were very individual and almost unique- my degree at a well regarded university in the UK demonstrates my ability to adapt and excel- something that people in my age bracket are said to be lacking. Moreover, ( and this is totally my opinion) the UK education is settled on the basics. Because really it's a lifestyle and a culture that you adopt, not a manditory set of meetings and exercizes that are rigorously graded- something that I could not sometimes convince other members of my cohort. Education isn't always neatly graded and within a rubric- it's what you do with it.
 
If you want to do well- show up at all the seminars, present at and attend conferences. Work on publishing- avail yourself of the opportunities, go to after seminar drinks at the pub. There is a whole world of learning that doesn't follow US guidelines. And these folks in the UK are just as accomplished.
 
PS- BBC article pegs the US as # 14 in higher education ratings- the UK is #6. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27314075. That factoid is important when judging what your degree might be "worth".
 
I personally would not bother with a program that is going to disallow my degree and make take another Master's - if I do a PhD I will do it in the UK at a top tier school because really Oxbridge, LSE and SOAS are not lesser schools - anywhere in the world. The British work hard to keep their standing and pedigree- something that will not change anytime soon- if you want to go to the UK, quit reading this board and find out for yourself. It might really work well for you.