Feeling discouraged, need advice

[Pinque]

I applied to the University of Colorado's Religion Masters program and I was rejected. I'm not sure why, as they offered the option to inquire, but I have yet to receive a response.

 

I don't know where I should go from here, I've considered both Iliff and Regis, but I am discouraged (I know that's a terrible trait to have) I feel if CU doesn't want me, as a public state school, no one else will either.

 

I have worked so hard to try and get into a Masters program and I want to move onto a Doctoral program afterwards and I know the rejection pool is much steeper in that program, but I don't really know why I was rejected and I don't know how to improve. I want to be involved in biblical interpretation or history and Iliff is actually a better fit than CU, but I had chosen CU because I live in Boulder, and I qualify for 'immediate family' tuition, which would cover 9 credits a year. I know financial things should not be the biggest factor, but attending CU would have considerably lightened my costs of graduate school, and Iliff is consirably more expensive, and at this point I don't know how I can afford it even if I do get accepted.

 

I feel like my undergrad transcripts might have been the biggest factor. I started at a community college, and did fairly well, mostly A's a couple B's and I think 2 C's in my weakest subjects (science). I had one bad semester early on where I failed every single course, but I attempted to explain this in my letter, indicating that I had witnessed my husband commit suicide during that semester and I had to take some personal time away from studies to recover. I took an extended break because of this, but when I got back into school, I have not had a grade lower than an A- since. This occured in my second year. After going as far as I could in the comunity college, I enrolled in an online school, I thought I was making a sound decision because it's regionally acredited but maybe I screwed myself over and they didn't like my school. 

 

Do you think my school and/or grades had anything to do with it? Should I still try for Iliff and Regis, and anyone who was admitted to these schools, do you have any tips on what appeals to them?

 

Thanks to anyone who read this, I know it's kind of whiny.

[therealhogwarts]

Although I will try and address some of your queries to the best of my abilities, I think I will start by saying personal discouragement has no place in this field. Very few, perhaps a select 2-3%, have failed to experience rejection at some level in the admissions process. To be honest, even if you have the best statistics (i.e. GPA, GRE scores, publications, recommendation letters) you could still be rejected on a rather whimsical note (i.e. faculty members could say they didn't feel a connection with you). Personally, I applied to five PhD programs last year and was rejected from all of them. I then had to pay out-of-pocket to undertake a second MA out of country at the University of Oxford (still currently there). This application cycle I was rejected to 80% of the schools I applied to! But the rewards are there! I got accepted for the DPhil at Oxford and have a very high chance of being admitted off of the wait list at Emory. I am not going to be the one to tell you that the admissions process is easy. It gets much more difficult from the MA to the PhD. Nonetheless, if you really see this as a potential career choice, you should work at it. Perhaps get in contact with faculty members early on at prospective schools and work on improving GRE scores. Perhaps do some independent research and write an article to be published. These things can considerably help your candidacy for graduate schools. In the end, it is a tough process, as anyone can attest. But if this is what you are passionate about, it is definitely worth striving for. Best of luck!

[Pinque]

Thank you for that. It does help to know that it may have nothing to do with being "good enough" but I will take your suggestions. I know rejection is inevitable, but I really had high hopes for this school.

[mdiv2014]

Rejection of any form sucks.

It's natural to internalize it and take it personally. An offer of a date rejected, a  life partner walking out on you, children who turn away, denial of promotion, being fired etc. Even being told straight out 'you're not good enough' by a school, parent, etc. sucks. 

An active life can have many rejections - and they all hurt. 

Painful in the moment, of yes.

But THEREALHOGWARTS  says personal discouragement has no place in our field. What he didnt say was, without getting moralistic or preachy, we dont just study religion , we live it. You can fill in your appropriate dogmatic spin on this.....but in the end, chin up and get back into the game of life

We lack the details of your application to deconstruct it and where it went wrong. If you handle this rejection as a stimulus for growth, this rejection can make your next application stronger. So many undergraduates lack life experience and real life challenges/failures/rejections - use this to make your application stronger next time.

Also, while the online school may have been your only option, I (personally) would look down on it, but again we're not privy to your whole application....... 

Heads up, we've all been there and in the days ahead many will get the same news.

[Macrina]

Rejection is difficult - no matter how impersonal it may be, it always feels deeply personal and it's ok to be sad about it for a little while.

I think you may be right that your educational background is what's holding you back. If I read your post correctly, you have several years at a community college and then some online credits from a regionally accredited institution. That's not a strong background for an academic masters program. I think it is less your actual grades than the places where you got them from.

To succeed you will need to show that you can handle university level courses. I think you can do either of the following and dramatically increase your chances of admission: 1) take a few courses at a an actual known university in the area, or 2) apply for admission as a special student and take a graduate course or two at the university of colorado's religion department for non-degree purposes.

2 would be better but with only community college/online experience, there is a good chance you will not get in even as a special student.

Honestly, you're competing against applicants with undergraduate degrees from prestigious and academically reputable institutions. Your background just isn't competitive. You can make it more competitive by taking a few courses from similar institutions but community college and regionally accredited online schools are not adequate preparation for grad school.

[Wisdom-Lover]

Rejection sucks, of course. And the existential questioning is natural. But you shouldn't feel bad about having those questions, nor should you take it personally. Sometimes schools reject you because your interests don't align with their program. Look at that as an opportunity! They are saying you're not quite a good fit for them, but you could be a great fit elsewhere and they have now given you that opportunity to attend that better fit!

 

Honestly, I think you should apply to a large handful of schools. (I'm not familiar with your area; I don't know how many programs of note there are, it's true.) But with more opportunities, you have more possibilities of acceptance! Furthermore, having more schools can help account for any of the "whimsical note" that admissions committees might have. I mean, not all of them are going to have those notes, but you'll still have some.

 

To put it simply, the adage of "don't put all of your eggs in one basket" may be the best bet here. My professors even made sure I had more than 5 baskets in which to put my eggs... :/ It was expensive, but it's been beneficial so far.

 

Hopefully, that helps... Good luck! I hope things work out for you!

[marXian]

My guess is that it's the online degree that's the hang-up. I went to a community college, had a 2.9 GPA from there, didn't really get it together until my senior year at a state school, etc., but I was able to get into a good PhD program (after two MAs). I don't know what your life situation is, but if this is something you are really, really passionate about, getting a second BA, maybe even from CU's religion dept., might be something to consider. My first MA (from the University of Northern Colorado!) is in English. I knew that based upon my undergrad GPA (English major, 3.17) and the second tier status of my MA school, that it would be really hard to get into a good English PhD program. I also realized that I was maybe more interested in theology/philosophy during the course of that degree. So I went to seminary to get a second MA, kept the door open for the possibility of a PhD in either English or religion/theology, then discovered that religion/theology programs are generally more interdisciplinary and that there would be more options for me to apply to. And there's no theology/religion GRE subject exam (thank God.) At one point in the middle of that second MA, I considered getting a third MA in philosophy so that I could apply to an even wider range of PhD programs, but because I had been carefully assessing programs, figuring out fit, etc., by the time I entered my final year, I knew that I had reached a point where I felt ready to just apply to PhD programs without another degree first (though a third MA was my backup plan.)

 

All of this to say, when you hear back from CU, you need to take what they say in stride, own up to the fact that you have deficiencies in your academic history, and figure out exactly what you need to do to get competitive and get back out there. And it may take longer than you want it to--I was hoping to be done by now, but here I am in my seventh year of graduate school just finishing the second year of my PhD. But if you are dead set on academia, can't picture yourself doing anything else at all, then it won't matter to you how long it takes to get there.

[sacklunch]

Some schools have different rules on who can enroll for a second BA, but I think most would easily take you on for a second (it's money, of course they will take you!). Two factors, I think, kept you out: 1) as the others have stated, your undergraduate degree is questionable from the standpoint of an admissions committee, but perhaps just as important 2) is CUB's program is much smaller than many of the 'flagship' schools (where most of us have earned an MA* degree at). I have no worldly clue what CUB's acceptance rate is for their MA program, but I would venture to say it's lower than most of the flagship divinity schools (e.g. MDiv at Harvard, Yale, Duke, PTS, and so on). Don't let those 'big names' make you think that just because you were rejected from a 'state school' you could not possibly compete in the 'big leagues.' Simply put, most of the big names are not terribly competitive at the MA level (full rides and what not are exceptions, to be sure).

 

If you qualify for the same type of funding perks in pursuing a second BA, then going to CUB for a second BA is a great plan (or perhaps in state tuition wouldn't be a huge deal to loan?). It's worth mentioning, as marXian and many of us on this board have testified (me included), getting a second MA is not terribly uncommon. This is, in part, because many students do not know what they want to do in undergrad, but also because our field is becoming increasingly competitive. I can absolutely say without hesitation: where you get your BA matters. Yes, many many doctoral students in our field have BA's from random liberal arts schools. But many also come from top programs, private or state. And as the applicant pool becomes more competitive, having a degree from a reputable school may make or break your application. I mention this because even if you somehow get into a decent MA program, you may end up having to get yet another MA to further 'justify' your questionable past. On that note, CUB has a really good reputation in both Religious Studies and related fields (Classics, especially).

[awells27]

As far as rejection, better to experience it early and move on.  My undergrad record is extremely sketchy, which prevented me from getting into the top most masters programs.  Therefore, I needed two MAs, extremely high GPA, and total focus on fit in order to land a PHD acceptance.

 

First, an MA in religion is too vague without a focus.  Determine what your research interests are, what languages are crucial to that focus, and what particular emphasis you envision tackling as an MA student.  

Second, figure out which MA programs cater best to your focus.  If you say, "I'm interested in New Testament," that's too vague.  That field is flooded and rejections happen all the time.  For me, I had no choice but to go to Fuller and go into debt.  It would have been larger had I not had family to live with in California and a good part-time job.  I would also search out every possible funding opportunity.

 

Plenty of seminaries might not have the top-tier rep, but they have have excellent language and exegesis training.  If you need help with determining what schools fit your particular focus.  Feel free to PM me.   

Edited March 11, 2014 by awells27

[xypathos]

I don't think your online school is the issue. I did a significant amount of my schooling at an online school. So far I've been accepted to Union and Vanderbilt with generous funding. I'll find out about Yale this Saturday.

I also witnessed a suicide - my father.

It's certainly possible that you didn't make Colorado's cut. Someone had to get rejected.

[sacklunch]

Again, it is very likely that the acceptance rate at CUB's MA is lower than most of the 'big name' MDiv programs, including Union, Vandy, and Yale. This is purely a guess, though, so correct me if you all have any hard data. As an example, it was harder to get into 'smelly ol' Georgia State's MA in philosophy (36% acceptance rate) than Yale's MDiv, which has hovered around 50-80% for the last ten years. Many state programs, like CUB, expect all their students to come in with very focused interests and goals (usually academic in nature), while many MDiv students come in without having much if any training in religion/philosophy/theology. That said, you may want to apply to some of the big name divinity schools. I bet you would fare well. They tend to accept/like personal statements rather the expected academic focus of a 'statement of purpose.'

[Pinque]

Thanks everyone for all the insight and tips. As far as CU goes, they do have special restrictions on 2nd Bachelors, but I do believe I can use my tuiton funding option to cover 9 credits regardless of the program. I will not be able to get a degree from CU in the field I already have a degree in so I would need to choose something outside of the religion department. Perhaps Greek.

 

I will still apply to both Regis and Iliff, as their deadlines have not passed, and if I am not admitted, I will follow all of your suggestions about improving my background/history, as well as applying to a broader range of schools next year (or the following). 

 

As far as the "big name" schools goes, beyond the feeling that I would not be accepted due to my background, I also (perhaps inaccurately) assumed that a divinity school was not the right choice for me. I'm not looking to go into the field of ministry or such, I am mostly interested in teaching or outside of that in a political or non profit field. I am not looking for an MDiv, but an MA. Does that matter? And then there is the pesky issue that I'm not a Christian, I just want to study Christian Studies (biblical interpretation and/or history). I am no less passionate about my studies and religion is my entire world, I just don't practice the faith I study. 

 

*edit*

 

I also wanted to add, just to clarify, I only took about half my credits at the community college, or at least only 60 credits transferred, I took the rest at the online school. I just spent more time overall at the community college because I took 90 credits there and there were gaps in my education timeline. Once I transferred to the online school, I buckled down and spent 12 months taking 18 credits a semester back to back to complete my final two years in a years time frame. I know that doesn't help in anyway, but I wanted to clarify based on a previous poster.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Pinque

[marXian]

As far as the "big name" schools goes, beyond the feeling that I would not be accepted due to my background, I also (perhaps inaccurately) assumed that a divinity school was not the right choice for me. I'm not looking to go into the field of ministry or such, I am mostly interested in teaching or outside of that in a political or non profit field. I am not looking for an MDiv, but an MA. Does that matter? And then there is the pesky issue that I'm not a Christian, I just want to study Christian Studies (biblical interpretation and/or history). I am no less passionate about my studies and religion is my entire world, I just don't practice the faith I study. 

 

Good news for you: Both your assumptions are wrong! There are people going into ministry at the big name div schools/seminaries, but there are plenty of people going into academia at them as well (including a ton of people on this board.) Those schools are not conservative (as compared to other seminaries) so not being a Christian is not an issue in the least. derewigestudent is in that boat and can probably offer you some insight on what it's like to not practice what you're studying. It sounds to me like a div school could be the perfect place for you.

 

Also--I think it's a really common misconception that people in RS departments practice what they study. Some do and some don't, but even the ones who do attempt to bracket that to a certain professional degree (I'm talking secular RS depts.)

[sacklunch]

Beware that some divinity schools, while not outright saying 'non-Christians need not apply,' are not great places to study if you are not interested in studying 'this stuff' from a faith perspective. Would it make you feel weird to have the entire class pray before class begins? This is fairly common at many mainline divinity schools. Naturally, the conversations in those kinds of courses tend to swing back and forth between 'academic' and 'pastoral.' For me, this isn't so much offensive (a divinity school does have a 'mission,' eh?), but it is a sort of an annoying sidetrack when I want to be focusing on purely academic concerns in the classroom. If this seems strange for those of you studying from a faith point of view within an academic environment (the ideal sweet spot for many divinity students I suspect), imagine taking a course in a classics department, say reading Hellenistic poetry. If the professor began class with a prayer to the gods and then throughout the course the students frequently discussed x or y poem in relationship to their own 'pagan' faith, I have to think most folks would wonder if they were being 'punk'd' or perhaps somehow transported into the Twilight Zone. That said, to maintain some mental health, I would apply to the more liberal divinity schools where their curricula isn't going to prevent you from getting exactly what you need academically. Also, many theists (Christians, almost always) will ask (as I have been from day one), why then are you in a 'divinity'/'theological' school studying if you are not a Christian?!?!? The answer is fairly obvious: they have more resources than the secular programs. Not only that, but they have lower admissions standards! Don't want language requirements? Don't want to have to write a thesis? All you need to do is head on over to an Ivy divinity program and suddenly you have access to 4x the faculty, the library, and the money than almost any state/secular university. Again, because the overwhelming majority of people 'doing this' at a high level are Christians (I am speaking from subfields associated with history, biblical studies, and so on), the option of going to a state school with all the aforementioned truncated resources because increasingly unattractive. Point being, us non-Christians have to head on over to Div and study with the rest of 'em. 

[awells27]

The more I think about this, if I were not a Christian and wanted to study biblical interpretation at a seminary, Iliff would be an ideal place for an MA.  I recently interviewed with Dr. Eisenbaum and came out of it wishing that I had done my MA with her.  One could get their Greek and Hebrew there, as well as a very progressive interdisciplinary focus.  Any other languages could probably be worked out through cross-study at the University of Denver.  Iliff actually encourages diversity in student population.  

[Pinque]

Thanks again for all the feedback. You guys have been extremely helpful and welcoming to me, despite this being my first post (and quite a 'woe is me' post at that).

As to the "why study at a Divinity school" I see I was very misinformed, and I completely get the point that has been made, and as to the point of “if you’re not a Christian, why are you here?” I experience something similar on a frequent basis. I often have to constantly justify myself to people when I tell them what I'm studying, I inevitably get asked "If you're not a Christian, then why are you studying religion." My first answer has always been that religion encompasses more than just Christianity, and this is more relevant to my BA, which has had a broader range of religion courses where I have chosen to narrow it down to interpretation and biblical classes in my electives, etc. I also like to tell people, "You don't need to be Egyptian to study Egyptology" not quite the same, but it makes my point I suppose.

As far as praying prior to class and such, I wouldn't mind that, I just want an environment where I can study without my personal beliefs being an issue. To date, this hasn't been a problem for the most part. I've run across a classmate or two who became angry with me over my "preposterous" beliefs of the Bible, and one teacher who I felt (perhaps imagined) was harder on my because of my beliefs, but it just made me work harder to produce quality work. The rest have been extremely open and I frequently have extensive discussions with one of my professors who is also a Lutheran Pastor regarding many biblical topics. I’m also very used to other students interjecting their personal beliefs in academic topics, I figure this comes with the territory. I just don’t want to treated poorly or even graded poorly because I don’t apply those same beliefs to my work.

Anyway, before I get too far off track, I brought up the suggestions here to one of my professors (one of my letters of recommendation) and she agreed that getting a second BA could help, but also warned getting one at CU could actually hinder my chances at getting accepted to CU’s Masters program because some schools prefer students to get a “diversified” education. Her recommendation was to apply to multiple MA programs and if I am not accepted to any of them, then I should look into bolstering my application with a second BA.

With that being said, I am actually highly encouraged about Iliff’s program. I’ve spoken to an admissions counselor and I discussed my hesitence about enrolling in a Christian based school and she assured me that regardless of my beliefs I would be warmly accepted and that they have many students from different backgrounds and faiths (or even lack thereof). I still have time to apply to Iliff for the 2014-2015 school year, and I think currently that’s my best choice. If I am not accepted, I will look into applying to multiple programs for next year.

I am encouraged by your information that some of the bigger name schools might be the perfect fit for me, and that I might actually have a shot at them, but I do have to wonder if it’s worth waiting a year for a chance, when I could apply to Iliff now. (of course there is no guarantee I’ll be accepted at Iliff either, but I feel it would be safer and more beneficial to try first, than to wait)

[Alex Madlinger]

if I met someone who wasn't a Christian, I would be curious and ask them. When they said, 'I want to be a scholar of religion,' I would say, 'That makes a lot of sense, welcome to X Divinity School,' and then the issue would be closed. I imagine that you wouldn't have a hard time at the places which were mentioned above. Yes, it is likely that you'd be stuck in an awkward social situation where the professor assumed that everyone wanted to participate in a particular spiritual discipline. Just remember that Divinity Schools have as their primary mission the training of ministers, and that you've traded a few social inconveniences for a chance at achieving your dream! I'm a practicing Christian at a conservative seminary, but I'm on the moderate-to-liberal spectrum and I'm interested in academic biblical studies. So I have to endure these kinds of social inconveniences as well, but because of the year and a half I spent at this seminary, I was accepted into three great programs for the fall. Definitely worth the trade!  

[sacklunch]

If Iliff doesn't work out then go ahead and apply to both a second BA and some of the bigger Div schools. Again, some would welcome you with open arms, others, even if they did, you would hate your life while studying there. It's also worth mentioning that most people in biblical studies/history of interpretation get two masters before starting a PhD, if they can get in at all. Considering worries about your 'questionable' past, you will no doubt need two masters to compete at 'top' religion programs. This isn't set in stone, so take it for what it is, but it is very very common in our field. I went to a decent college, studied biblical studies, classical languages, and ancient philosophy, and I still had to get two masters. I'm the rule, not the exception, perhaps. The reason I mentioned getting a second BA would be helpful, is it might allow you to just get one masters. Also, your professor is quite right about concerns of 'intellectual inbreeding.' I would say, though, that you would have no reason to get your MA at CUB after completing your second BA there. Do the second BA, then go elsewhere for your masters. This would give you the best of both worlds. 

 

You have likely heard this ad nauseam, but start your languages now. If your interests are in early/medieval, take as many classes as you can in classical Greek, classical Latin (first, and then koine/ecclesial second if possible), classical Hebrew, German, and/or French. This will make or break your application to a competitive masters such as Yale's MARc, and absolutely break a doctoral app in the field. 

 

Good luck, mate.

[Body Politics]

Toss an app to Iliff. Not only does it participate in its own joint PhD (ahem), I know that Iliff has a strong record of sending their best M* students on to other PhD programs as well.