Philosophy/Theology

[Dabaliga]

looks like you dont want to provide specifics. Understood.

[Alex Madlinger]

I PMed you. The short answer is they're really, really conservative.

[ianfaircloud]

I PMed you. The short answer is they're really, really conservative.

 

Southern Baptist Convention is one of the most conservative denominations in America -- politically, socially, theologically. If you were expecting anything else, then I'm not surprised that you were disappointed! By really, really conservative, you must mean something that's shockingly conservative. I know about the home-birthing movements, the preaching against use of birth control, the parochial views on family and relationships. So you must be talking about something more conservative (or more shocking) than that...

[Alex Madlinger]

Haha, two factors at play. (1) I grew up in super fundamentalist craziness, so when I went I signed up for seminary a bazillian years ago the SBC seemed super chill and moderate. (2) It was really during my time in seminary that I chose my life path (ancient religions) and became a 'normal, secular' student of early Christianity. So it's more of a don't-look-back thing than a I'm-surprised-and-didn't-expect-that thing.

Oh, and there was the time that an SBC leader told people that academic freedom was invented to protect liberals. Which, I suppose, is true, but seriously?

Edited March 20, 2014 by Alex Madlinger

[ianfaircloud]

Haha, two factors at play. (1) I grew up in super fundamentalist craziness, so when I went I signed up for seminary a bazillian years ago the SBC seemed super chill and moderate. (2) It was really during my time in seminary that I chose my life path (ancient religions) and became a 'normal, secular' student of early Christianity. So it's more of a don't-look-back thing than a I'm-surprised-and-didn't-expect-that thing.

Oh, and there was the time that an SBC leader told people that academic freedom was invented to protect liberals. Which, I suppose, is true, but seriously?

 

Ahh, makes more sense now!!

[sbcthrowaway]

Southern Baptist Convention is one of the most conservative denominations in America -- politically, socially, theologically. If you were expecting anything else, then I'm not surprised that you were disappointed! By really, really conservative, you must mean something that's shockingly conservative. I know about the home-birthing movements, the preaching against use of birth control, the parochial views on family and relationships. So you must be talking about something more conservative (or more shocking) than that...

 

Regular poster here (not a philosopher).  I grew up in the SBC.  I never heard anyone preach against birth control -- pretty sure everybody used it -- and all the families I knew at church had their babies in the hospital.  Not sure what you mean by "parochial views" on the family, but complementarianism was the default viewpoint, if that's what you're getting at.  So yes, conservative, but shockingly so?  Hardly, unless you have no familiarity with conservatives at all.

[Alex Madlinger]

Oh man, here we go!

[dgswaim]

Im curious why you say this, Alex. It seems to be a great place to pursue his interests, assuming of course, that he belongs to or is at least comfortable with the SBC. And though I dont have any hard data to back it up, it seems that they place their graduates well--at least in other more conservative academic posts. I considered applying there but they require phd applicants to have an mdiv.

I would say the main reason not to attend a seminary associated with the SBC is that it will be very limiting in terms of potential career prospects. There are many, many places that would not even consider hiring a PhD from such a seminary environment, irrespective of the candidate's qualifications.

[Alex Madlinger]

Major second.

[sbcthrowaway]

I would say the main reason not to attend a seminary associated with the SBC is that it will be very limiting in terms of potential career prospects. There are many, many places that would not even consider hiring a PhD from such a seminary environment, irrespective of the candidate's qualifications.

 

This is of course true.  But I share Dabaliga's confusion as to why no one (apparently) should go to an SBC seminary.  If you're okay with the consequences of such a choice, why not consider it?  Just because the vast majority of posters on this forum wouldn't, that doesn't mean nobody should.

[Alex Madlinger]

In general, being part of an SBC seminary disqualifies you from participating fully in the discipline. I'd imagine that's doubly true in philosophy. But even in biblical studies, the professors that I'm familiar with are all considered to be boring or fringe.

[dgswaim]

In general, being part of an SBC seminary disqualifies you from participating fully in the discipline. I'd imagine that's doubly true in philosophy. But even in biblical studies, the professors that I'm familiar with are all considered to be boring or fringe.

Oh yeah. You can forget a career in mainstream philosophy. A few conservative departments might hire someone with an SBC background (Dallas Baptist, Houston Baptist, Cal Baptist, Calvin (although that's probably pushing it), Wheaton still has some old school SBC holdovers), but they are hardly mainstream and very few of the philosophers in these departments publish in well-known journals (Del Ratzsch at Calvin is the only one I can think of). If one is willing to take that kind of risk then I suppose that's fine, I just find it to be an imprudent career move. If I were a conservative theist philosopher ( and I'm not, mind you. I am very much the liberal theist), it seems the better move, careerwise, would be to enroll at a more mainstream program and play your conservative cards close to the vest. That's maybe not the preferred tack for some, but it seems more prudent to me.

[marXian]

To the OP's question (not that I don't find the discussion of the SBC entertaining), there are a few things you need to bear in mind as you're looking for programs.

 

First, a helpful response to what you're looking for depends so much on how conservative you are. You mentioned "Christian Apologetics" which makes me think more conservative, but if I'm wrong let me know. If you are more conservative, that's not necessarily a problem; it's just going to change what you're going to be really interested in and probably affect what you mean when you say "philosophy."

 

Second, there are very big differences between "philosophy of religion," "systematic theology," "philosophical theology" and everything else you listed that you should bear in mind when looking for programs. Chances are you're not going to be teaching courses across all of the disciplines you listed, at least not right out of the gate, and only if you end up teaching at a smaller liberal arts college/Christian school. You simply can't do all of those in a PhD program (as your major field), so you're going to have to pick an area to focus on. That doesn't mean, however, that if you do historical theology, for example, there's going to be no philosophy involved--just the opposite, actually. A dissertation on Thomas Aquinas is going to require a lot of philosophy. Philosophical theology and systematic theology are usually considered "constructive" disciplines, which means less historical work and more theoretical work, but historical theology can offer something constructive and constructive theology can be (and should be) grounded in historical work. At the end of the day, though, it really sounds like an interdisciplinary theology department (like at ND) or a religious studies department is really going to best suit your needs.

 

Third, even if you're conservative, be wary of conservative theology departments and how they treat philosophy. If you look at a lot of ST programs at seminaries (that aren't mainline or PTS or something) you're going to find that philosophy is not really valued. That's not the case across the board (people mentioned Fuller, I went there, philosophy matters there), but if you do end up going more conservative, the "philosophy" that is taught is really just apologetics (which may not be a problem for you.) Theology in these programs is treated as if there are no philosophical underpinnings whatsoever. But if you're truly interested in the relationship between philosophy and theology, I don't think more conservative schools are going to be a good option.

 

Lastly, here's a good list to start from for funded PhD programs in theology/religious studies that are open to interdisciplinary approaches: Princeton Seminary (Theology), Yale (Religious Studies), Harvard (Religious Studies), Duke (Religious Studies), UChicago Div School (Theology), Northwestern (Religious Studies), Loyola Chicago (Theology), Notre Dame (Theology), Marquette (Theology), Syracuse (Religious Studies), UVA (Religious Studies)

 

As an aside, all of these religious studies programs have tracks in theology or philosophy of religion. For the ones that have theology tracks, Northwestern and Yale for example, actual systematic theology is done in those departments as well as historical theology and philosophy of religion.

[dgswaim]

One more thing to mention with respect to divinity programs is that in some cases divinity programs are going to largely pastorally driven at the MDiv level (Princeton, for instance). That isn't necessarily a problem as such, but something to consider. Some will offer an MA and an MDiv, and usually the MA doesn't involve the pastoral training. Another school that I might add to the list above is the theological school at Boston University. They have good people in phil religion (e.g. Wesley Wildman). 

[sacklunch]

Im curious why you say this, Alex. It seems to be a great place to pursue his interests, assuming of course, that he belongs to or is at least comfortable with the SBC. And though I dont have any hard data to back it up, it seems that they place their graduates well--at least in other more conservative academic posts. I considered applying there but they require phd applicants to have an mdiv.

 

Haha. Really, you don't see why?   

 

For master's programs, you might check out BC's new Philosophy and Theology joint MA. BC is a great place to study both, with easy access to all the Boston schools. Oh and no one gives two rips about what you believe, thank the gods. 

[philosophynerd23]

For what it's worth, the thing I had to think about when making the decision between religious studies, theology, and philosophy was which 101 class I would rather teach. 

 

Let's say your focus is Augustine. You can approach him from each of the above fields ( and probably more, like History, Classics, English). The question, though, is what you want to teach besides Augustine, because the fact of the matter is that you're probably not going to spend much time teaching Augustine. Most of your time will spent teaching Religion 101, Theology 101, Church History 101, Philosophy 101, and so on.

 

So which introductory class you would rather teach? That's the program I'd go into.

[marXian]

For what it's worth, the thing I had to think about when making the decision between religious studies, theology, and philosophy was which 101 class I would rather teach. 

 

Let's say your focus is Augustine. You can approach him from each of the above fields ( and probably more, like History, Classics, English). The question, though, is what you want to teach besides Augustine, because the fact of the matter is that you're probably not going to spend much time teaching Augustine. Most of your time will spent teaching Religion 101, Theology 101, Church History 101, Philosophy 101, and so on.

 

So which introductory class you would rather teach? That's the program I'd go into.

 

This is an excellent way of thinking about it.

[Dabaliga]

I would say the main reason not to attend a seminary associated with the SBC is that it will be very limiting in terms of potential career prospects. There are many, many places that would not even consider hiring a PhD from such a seminary environment, irrespective of the candidate's qualifications.

 I'm sympathetic to almost everything that has been posted in this thread.  But since my post helped to start this conversation, I'll add a few remarks.

 

1) If the original poster isn't fairly conservative, then SBTS is definitely not worth considering.  By now, this is fairly obvious.

 

2) Even if you are fairly conservative, SBTS may still not be a great place to study.  No doubt, dgswaim is right that a degree from a conservative university or seminary would limit one's potential career opportunities.  I suspect that while non-conservative schools would hesitate to hire people with degrees from conservative schools, conservative schools might be very happy to hire people who have degrees from non-conservative reputable schools (provided, of course, that the applicant him/herself is conservative).

 

Like the original poster, I am also interested in both philosophy and theology and would be happy to teach either or both.   Like everyone else, I am trying to make myself as marketable as possible so that I can find a job after finishing school.  Since I already have an MA in philosophy, I figured that getting a PhD in theology might make me the most marketable--especially at small liberal arts schools, many of which have combined philosophy and religion departments.  However, since I don't have a strong academic background in theology, my options were limited to PhD programs in theology that had lower admissions requirements, e.g., ones that will accept an MA in philosophy in place of an MDiv or even an MA in theology.  The three that caught my attention were conservative schools.  Ultimately, however, I figured that my job prospects would be better if I got a PhD in philosophy from a more reputable institution than I would be if I had an MA in philosophy and PhD in theology from a more conservative and less prestigious school.  (Of course, conservative and prestigious are not mutually exclusive.)

 

Another reason I am hesitant to get a degree from a more conservative school is this: not only does it limit your job prospects to conservative schools, but many conservative schools have very detailed doctrinal statements--again limiting your job prospects.  I, for example, fall on the conservative side of the theological spectrum (though I probably fall on the left side of the conservative spectrum).  I am afraid that I would be unable to sign the doctrinal statement for some (many?) of the schools that would be willing to hire someone from a conservative school.  Just as an example, I am not a dispensationalist or a young earther; many conservative schools require their professors to be.

 

3) So, I agree with many of the comments above.  I'd suggest looking into programs that will give you a wider job market.  I can't recommend any programs in particular.  Given what has already been said, I cannot recommend all the schools on this list, but the link below is a place to start.  Some of the schools on the list are conservative schools but are academically rigorous and have a great reputation (Gordon-Conwell, Asbury, Talbot).

 

http://www.sharefaith.com/blog/2013/08/top-20-theological-schools-seminaries-u-s/

[dgswaim]

 I'm sympathetic to almost everything that has been posted in this thread.  But since my post helped to start this conversation, I'll add a few remarks.

 

1) If the original poster isn't fairly conservative, then SBTS is definitely not worth considering.  By now, this is fairly obvious.

 

2) Even if you are fairly conservative, SBTS may still not be a great place to study.  No doubt, dgswaim is right that a degree from a conservative university or seminary would limit one's potential career opportunities.  I suspect that while non-conservative schools would hesitate to hire people with degrees from conservative schools, conservative schools might be very happy to hire people who have degrees from non-conservative reputable schools (provided, of course, that the applicant him/herself is conservative).

 

Like the original poster, I am also interested in both philosophy and theology and would be happy to teach either or both.   Like everyone else, I am trying to make myself as marketable as possible so that I can find a job after finishing school.  Since I already have an MA in philosophy, I figured that getting a PhD in theology might make me the most marketable--especially at small liberal arts schools, many of which have combined philosophy and religion departments.  However, since I don't have a strong academic background in theology, my options were limited to PhD programs in theology that had lower admissions requirements, e.g., ones that will accept an MA in philosophy in place of an MDiv or even an MA in theology.  The three that caught my attention were conservative schools.  Ultimately, however, I figured that my job prospects would be better if I got a PhD in philosophy from a more reputable institution than I would be if I had an MA in philosophy and PhD in theology from a more conservative and less prestigious school.  (Of course, conservative and prestigious are not mutually exclusive.)

 

Another reason I am hesitant to get a degree from a more conservative school is this: not only does it limit your job prospects to conservative schools, but many conservative schools have very detailed doctrinal statements--again limiting your job prospects.  I, for example, fall on the conservative side of the theological spectrum (though I probably fall on the left side of the conservative spectrum).  I am afraid that I would be unable to sign the doctrinal statement for some (many?) of the schools that would be willing to hire someone from a conservative school.  Just as an example, I am not a dispensationalist or a young earther; many conservative schools require their professors to be.

 

3) So, I agree with many of the comments above.  I'd suggest looking into programs that will give you a wider job market.  I can't recommend any programs in particular.  Given what has already been said, I cannot recommend all the schools on this list, but the link below is a place to start.  Some of the schools on the list are conservative schools but are academically rigorous and have a great reputation (Gordon-Conwell, Asbury, Talbot).

 

http://www.sharefaith.com/blog/2013/08/top-20-theological-schools-seminaries-u-s

 

I think Talbot is a good place to study. I think JP Moreland is a good, careful philosopher; I think Scott Rae is a good, careful philosopher; I think William Craig is an excellent philosopher (although I have meaningful disagreements with all three). As academically rigorous as Biola's program is, I still think it might be limiting, though. Also, it has little if any money to give to grad students, and tuition ain't cheap.

[marXian]

Dabaliga, I don't know what the results were for you this year in applying to programs, but have you considered religious studies programs? Of the RS departments that are friendly to theological projects, one could probably be admitted with an MA in philosophy and a desire to do a theological/philosophical project. One does not need a PhD in theology in order to teach theology. For example, theologians who have earned their PhDs at Yale in recent years technically have a PhD in religious studies (as Yale Divinity does not confer PhDs.) Same goes for those doing theological projects at Syracuse, UVA, Northwestern, etc. If an RS department has a theology track, the aim is for those students to be able to teach theology. As you might imagine, there are far more opportunities for people with a PhD in religious studies with an emphasis in theology from any of these schools than there are for people who have a PhD in theology from a denominational seminary (with the exception maybe of Princeton.) Most RS departments are wary of PhDs in theology earned at seminaries, for better or for worse. But the opposite does not seem to be true; that is, many religiously affiliated schools, both colleges and seminaries, would be very interested in hiring someone with a PhD from said schools. Of course, that's probably not true for more conservative institutions. But with a degree in religious studies, one could potentially teach at a religiously affiliated school or a "secular" religious studies department interested in having someone who does theology.

[Dabaliga]

Dabaliga, I don't know what the results were for you this year in applying to programs, but have you considered religious studies programs? Of the RS departments that are friendly to theological projects, one could probably be admitted with an MA in philosophy and a desire to do a theological/philosophical project. One does not need a PhD in theology in order to teach theology. For example, theologians who have earned their PhDs at Yale in recent years technically have a PhD in religious studies (as Yale Divinity does not confer PhDs.) Same goes for those doing theological projects at Syracuse, UVA, Northwestern, etc. If an RS department has a theology track, the aim is for those students to be able to teach theology. As you might imagine, there are far more opportunities for people with a PhD in religious studies with an emphasis in theology from any of these schools than there are for people who have a PhD in theology from a denominational seminary (with the exception maybe of Princeton.) Most RS departments are wary of PhDs in theology earned at seminaries, for better or for worse. But the opposite does not seem to be true; that is, many religiously affiliated schools, both colleges and seminaries, would be very interested in hiring someone with a PhD from said schools. Of course, that's probably not true for more conservative institutions. But with a degree in religious studies, one could potentially teach at a religiously affiliated school or a "secular" religious studies department interested in having someone who does theology.

I appreciate your comments.  I only applied to 1 PhD program in philosophy.  I decided to apply about a week before their deadline.  I was already admitted to and completed a year of study there 4 years ago.  I decided to drop the program, however, for personal/family reasons.  I am hoping to be readmitted but am still waiting to hear back from them.  Fingers crossed.  If it doesn't work out, I plan to reapply again next year, but I'll have to reconsider which I'd rather pursue--philosophy or theology.   If I choose theology, I'll definitely look into the Religious Studies programs you mentioned.  Interestingly, I just discovered that my undergrad philosophy professor doesn't actually have a PhD in philosophy; he has a PhD in Religious Studies from UVA.  He did philosophical theology. 

[Dabaliga]

I appreciate your comments.  I only applied to 1 PhD program in philosophy.  I decided to apply about a week before their deadline.  I was already admitted to and completed a year of study there 4 years ago.  I decided to drop the program, however, for personal/family reasons.  I am hoping to be readmitted but am still waiting to hear back from them.  Fingers crossed.  If it doesn't work out, I plan to reapply again next year, but I'll have to reconsider which I'd rather pursue--philosophy or theology.   If I choose theology, I'll definitely look into the Religious Studies programs you mentioned.  Interestingly, I just discovered that my undergrad philosophy professor doesn't actually have a PhD in philosophy; he has a PhD in Religious Studies from UVA.  He did philosophical theology. 

He teaches both philosophy and religion courses at a small liberal arts school in a combined philosophy and religion department.    

[existential_detective]

I'm in agreement with the above recommendations for both Boston College and Boston University. At Boston College, you'll find philosophy professors who do work in philosophy of religion (e.g., Mckaughan) and apologetics (e.g., Kreeft). In addition, BC offers courses that are team taught by philosophy and theology professors, which might be ideal for someone with your interests. 

 

BU also has professors who do work in philosophical theology (e.g., Neville), philosophy of religion (e.g., Speight), and science and religion (e.g., Wildman). You also might check out the BU Institute for Philosophy and Religion: bu.edu/ipr.