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thoughts on duke 3 year jd/ma philosophy vs traditional ma


wilson

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My goal it to ultimately matriculate into a philosophy PhD program specializing in legal philosophy and ethics. Unfortunately I went to a non top 50 undergrad with no philosophy grad program so as I understand it my chances for PhD admissions are pretty slim without a masters. I applied to a few PhD programs this year and was rejected from all of them.

 

I have been admitted to several MA programs without funding and the Duke 3 year JD/MA with nearly full funding. It's an attractive option because it has a built in backup plan if I get shutout in PhD admissions again. I hate to consider such but it seems a real possibility. I have minimal interest in actually practicing law unless becoming a philosopher proves impossible.  

 

Can anyone comment on whether the Duke combined program might offer similar advantages to PhD admissions as a MA (from Houston, Brandeis or Georgia Sate)? I'm not sure if the philosophy part would be taken seriously or if it just exists to lure competitive potential law students away from higher ranked schools. Since there is a PhD program at Duke I'm nervous that a JD/Ma student wouldn't have enough time with professors to gain strong letters and support on a writing sample. 

 

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

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[As an aside: I know numerous students from non-top 50 schools without grad programs who have gotten into top 20 and top 50 grad schools without Masters, so don't let that stop you from doing anything]

 

I have no special knowledge on this program, but I wanted to offer some encouragement because this program seems like a smart move. If you are interested in Philosophy of Law then having a JD is possibly going to help and not hurt (except for the time/effort/money it takes) your chances of later getting into a PhD program to study this topic. You've said it presents a possible fall-back if you don't get into a PhD program, but it also creates a possible fall-back for when you do get in to a PhD program but then can't get a tenure track job. You would be qualified to practice law full time; to perform legal consulting, serve on ethics boards, etc. during the summers if you are teaching; teach Philosophy of Law at a Law School, which would still afford you time to research/write, you'd be able to teach high caliber students, and presumably you'd be at a university/college that also has a philosophy department you could interact with.

 

Obviously it would serve you better to be in the PhD/JD program, and perhaps you should turn it down for a PhD from a good school, but it seems like this is a better option than an MA in Philosophy from another school.

 

Just my opinion. Good luck!

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Keep in mind that Duke is a top ("T14") law school. If they're funding most of it, I'd seriously consider it. The other T14 law schools are: Harvard, Yale, Penn, Columbia, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, Virginia, Cal Berkeley, Georgetown, Michigan, NYU, and Stanford. 

Edited by Wait For It...
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I think it depends on the career goal. If you want to be to teach philosophy in a philosophy department this route doesn't seem like a bad idea.

 

However, if you wan to be a law professor, then a PhD after a JD is tougher than a PhD and then a JD, a JD/PhD, or a JD/MA (you don't need a PhD to be a law professor...an MA would suffice) because of the time you spend off the academic legal market. If you want to work as a law professor, you'll also need to clerk for at least a year after your JD before you can go onto the legal academic market. If you pursue a PhD then you will spend at least four, more than likely five, more years not on the legal academic market in a philosophy program. While you spend that time in a PhD program, the people you will be competing with for law professor jobs (t-14 grads, particularly from Yale/Harvard/Stanford; Yale grads take a disproportionate number of legal academia jobs) will spend that time clerking or working in firms.

 

Keep in mind that Duke is a top ("T14") law school. If they're funding most of it, I'd seriously consider it. The other T14 law schools are: Harvard, Yale, Penn, Columbia, Cornell, Chicago, Northwestern, Virginia, Cal Berkeley, Georgetown, Michigan, NYU, and Stanford. 

 

However, this is true. Duke is t-14 AND they're funding... I wish you the best with this decision as it is definitely a tough but enviable choice to have to make.

 

Is there any chance that you are interested in Duke's PhD program? If so, then maybe there's a third possibility lurking out there?

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My goal it to ultimately matriculate into a philosophy PhD program specializing in legal philosophy and ethics. Unfortunately I went to a non top 50 undergrad with no philosophy grad program so as I understand it my chances for PhD admissions are pretty slim without a masters. I applied to a few PhD programs this year and was rejected from all of them.

 

I have been admitted to several MA programs without funding and the Duke 3 year JD/MA with nearly full funding. It's an attractive option because it has a built in backup plan if I get shutout in PhD admissions again. I hate to consider such but it seems a real possibility. I have minimal interest in actually practicing law unless becoming a philosopher proves impossible.  

 

Can anyone comment on whether the Duke combined program might offer similar advantages to PhD admissions as a MA (from Houston, Brandeis or Georgia Sate)? I'm not sure if the philosophy part would be taken seriously or if it just exists to lure competitive potential law students away from higher ranked schools. Since there is a PhD program at Duke I'm nervous that a JD/Ma student wouldn't have enough time with professors to gain strong letters and support on a writing sample. 

 

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

 

I wish I had more time to reply to this. Sorry for this off-the-cuff, half-ass reply...

 

I think the JD-MA is a really, really good option, even for someone who isn't interested too much in practicing law. Just a few thoughts:

 

A JD-MA from a fantastic place like Duke would be an entry to PhD programs that are serious about legal philosophy. I feel really confident about this, but I suppose you should do independent research to verify my claim. Still, I would put money on it that an MA from Tufts would be far less powerful than the JD-MA from Duke (with regard to placement to a top PhD with an AOI of legal philosophy).

 

You mention minimal interest in law. What will you do if philosophy doesn't work out for you? Law is an EXCELLENT back-up for people with interests in it. The top law schools have amazing employment stats -- 90%+, median incomes around $120-160k (starting). Again: What will you do if philosophy doesn't work out for you? Because philosophy frequently doesn't work out for people!

 

True, you won't get as much support on the writing sample. But in my experience, the best support came from peers. The MA gave me the time to devote to producing a better sample. So it wasn't as much the coaching of professors as it was the time + peer support (at least in my case) that helped deliver the strong writing sample.

 

Again: Duke = excellent. Almost full funding = excellent. Were you admitted to better law schools? I assume so, based on your funding offer from Duke!

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I don't wish to speak for everyone on this forum, but Big Law just doesn't seem like it would work for most of us. If I went into law, I'd want to work as little as possible, go home every night, and read philosophy. 80+ hour work week just doesn't go with the philosophical life. So, personally, I wouldn't factor Duke's employment statistics into this decision.

 

There are two things I would think about here though. If Duke is funded, you're going to need to be in the top 50% (or so) of your class to keep that scholarship. Remember: Law students take far more classes each semester than philosophy M.A. or Ph.D. students. I would be concerned about how many classes I would have to take each semester, which would make me worry about my performance in those classes and thus my prospects for Ph.D. admission. I think you do two years in the law school, one year in the philosophy department, and one year in both, in classes that count towards both the law and philosophy degree. It's four years; it seems rushed — it is rushed. I would be worried about keeping a 3.9+ in my phil. classes if I had to take more than four courses per term, which I assume at some point you will have to do.

 

That said, the ability not only to teach 101 classes throughout the Ph.D. but also to go to traffic court on weekends—make a couple hundred bucks here or there—seems really attractive. If, say, you want a family down the road, it might be manageable while in a Ph.D. program if you could supplement your stipend with both adjuncting and doing traffic court or simple criminal defense.

 

Regarding ultimate placement, I know people strike out, but it is less likely the more degrees you have (not hard data, just my experiencing in googling people's placement). I'd feel pretty secure with an M.A., J.D., and Ph.D.

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I don't wish to speak for everyone on this forum, but Big Law just doesn't seem like it would work for most of us. If I went into law, I'd want to work as little as possible, go home every night, and read philosophy. 80+ hour work week just doesn't go with the philosophical life. So, personally, I wouldn't factor Duke's employment statistics into this decision.

 

There are two things I would think about here though. If Duke is funded, you're going to need to be in the top 50% (or so) of your class to keep that scholarship. Remember: Law students take far more classes each semester than philosophy M.A. or Ph.D. students. I would be concerned about how many classes I would have to take each semester, which would make me worry about my performance in those classes and thus my prospects for Ph.D. admission. I think you do two years in the law school, one year in the philosophy department, and one year in both, in classes that count towards both the law and philosophy degree. It's four years; it seems rushed — it is rushed. I would be worried about keeping a 3.9+ in my phil. classes if I had to take more than four courses per term, which I assume at some point you will have to do.

 

That said, the ability not only to teach 101 classes throughout the Ph.D. but also to go to traffic court on weekends—make a couple hundred bucks here or there—seems really attractive. If, say, you want a family down the road, it might be manageable while in a Ph.D. program if you could supplement your stipend with both adjuncting and doing traffic court or simple criminal defense.

 

Regarding ultimate placement, I know people strike out, but it is less likely the more degrees you have (not hard data, just my experiencing in googling people's placement). I'd feel pretty secure with an M.A., J.D., and Ph.D.

 

I don't want to be mean to this person, but much of what this person has said either I disagree with or is simply incorrect.

 

First, the JD-MA at Duke is a three year program.

 

Second, the JD-MA allows for overlap in the course selection. EDIT: So because they allow overlap, presumably this isn't like stacking two discrete programs on one another in a matter of three years. It's a blend. 

 

It's not rushed. Duke allows students to complete some coursework over the first summer. Apparently you have time even to do summer legal work! So "rushed" isn't the correct way to describe the program.

 

Also, I will acknowledge that if you (wilson) could never dream of being a practicing attorney, then as philosophynerd23 says, that may be a strike against the JD. But presumably you (wilson) could dream of being a practicing attorney. And not all practicing attorneys work 80 hours per week! I have a good friend who is an assistant DA, and he usually works a 9-to-5, with occasional exceptions.

 

So I just think that philosophynerd23 has dispensed some bad advice based on some unfounded assumptions. A little, tiny bit of research will support my claims, above.

Edited by ianfaircloud
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I don't want to be mean to this person, but much of what this person has said either I disagree with or is simply incorrect.

 

First, the JD-MA at Duke is a three year program.

 

I had no idea. I just looked it up: I'm shocked about this. I assume the MA is a one year rather than a two year, then?

 

Second, the JD-MA allows for overlap in the course selection.

 

Yes, I said that.

 

It's not rushed. Duke allows students to complete some coursework over the first summer. Apparently you have time even to do summer legal work! So "rushed" isn't the correct way to describe the program.

 

Also, I will acknowledge that if you (wilson) could never dream of being a practicing attorney, then as philosophynerd23 says, that may be a strike against the JD. But presumably you (wilson) could dream of being a practicing attorney. And not all practicing attorneys work 80 hours per week! I have a good friend who is an assistant DA, and he usually works a 9-to-5, with occasional exceptions.

 

This was just directed at the median income thing. I could be completely wrong here, but I wouldn't expect your ADA friend to be making anywhere near 120-160. I think my friend's brother is making about 65 doing that. It depends on location, though. I was just saying that if we're admitting salary as a pro, then Big Law hours would seem also to be a con.

 

So I just think that philosophynerd23 has dispensed some bad advice based on some unfounded assumptions. A little, tiny bit of research will support my claims, above.

 

Yes, I did. Thank you for the corrections. But I would still be worried about the GPA in the classes that overlap. Law School grades are not inflated like philosophy grades. I'm sure you'll get straight As or A-s in your philosophy classes, but if the classes that count for both—e.g., philosophy of law, philosophy of punishment—are graded like the Law classes are, I think there are only a handful of As and A-s available. I think it's quite probable you could wind up with all B+s in those! If that's the case, that would drastically affect your GPA, which might make it harder to get into a top Ph.D. program. Again, I don't know if I'm right about the grading of these classes; Ian seems to know more about this stuff than I do. I'm just saying, I'd look into that.

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I appreciate this very reasonable response. Yes, you did say that the programs allow overlap. I meant to add the following: Because they allow overlap, presumably this isn't like stacking two discrete programs on one another in a matter of three years. It's a blend. 

 

I understand your point regarding Big Law. I think what I want to say is that law is an excellent back-up plan for people interested in philosophy (who could dream of being lawyers). It's an excellent back-up plan because there is some financial security, there's some job security (if the person attends a very good law school), and there's still opportunity to do philosophy. The hours are flexible -- more flexible than people often realize.

 

But when I go back and read your original post with a little more charity, I think I get the sentiment here. The sentiment is that a lot of us aren't at all interested in being lawyers. The life of a lawyer is quite different from the life of the average college professor. And law school is challenging. Certainly any program involving earning a JD is going to be very challenging, more challenging than just about any master's program in philosophy. So I agree with that. Point well-taken.

 

EDIT: Oh, and for what's it's worth, I should say that I'm biased in favor of law as a backup plan. See my signature.

Edited by ianfaircloud
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LOL.

 

Are you considering a JD/MA deal too?

 

No, I didn't look into it, only because I have two master's degrees (one in philosophy). But wow, if I knew then what I know now, I would have pursued the JD/MA! I have always had interests in both law and philosophy.

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I appreciate this very reasonable response. Yes, you did say that the programs allow overlap. I meant to add the following: Because they allow overlap, presumably this isn't like stacking two discrete programs on one another in a matter of three years. It's a blend. 

 

I understand your point regarding Big Law. I think what I want to say is that law is an excellent back-up plan for people interested in philosophy (who could dream of being lawyers). It's an excellent back-up plan because there is some financial security, there's some job security (if the person attends a very good law school), and there's still opportunity to do philosophy. The hours are flexible -- more flexible than people often realize.

But when I go back and read your original post with a little more charity, I think I get the sentiment here. The sentiment is that a lot of us aren't at all interested in being lawyers. The life of a lawyer is quite different from the life of the average college professor. And law school is challenging. Certainly any program involving earning a JD is going to be very challenging, more challenging than just about any master's program in philosophy. So I agree with that. Point well-taken.

 

EDIT: Oh, and for what's it's worth, I should say that I'm biased in favor of law as a backup plan. See my signature.

 

I think this thread has taken a marked turn that I find somewhat problematic. The thread started with Wilson, who was admitted into an excellent JD/MA program WITH FUNDING, asking whether or not it would be a good idea for him or her given his or her interest in legal philosophy. Several people offered responses. (NOTE: The ONLY reason I think it is possibly a good move even if wilson isn't interested in practicing law is because it is FUNDED.) However, towards the end of this thread there seems to be a strong advocacy for law school as a back up plan. I think this is absolutely the wrong sentiment.

 

I think it would be incredibly difficult to find an attorney, practicing or otherwise, who would advise someone to go to law school if they don't WANT to be a lawyer (have an interest in practicing the law). Even if you are interested in legal academia, you will need to clerk and thus practice the law for at least a year. I attended and Ivy undergrad and have numerous friends who went to law school for different reasons. It has been my experience that the only people who were happy with this decision were people who wanted to practice law; and that includes people that were successful (first in his class at our T14 law school)...they were smart and did well, but they didn't WANT to be lawyers and eventually end up doing something else. Seriously, just Google "Don't Go to Law School." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tucker-max/law-school_b_2713943.html " 3. "It's the only way I can use my humanities degree."

 

ianfaircloud, I understand that going to law school may be the right decision for you given your apparent interest in practicing as an attorney, but I believe that it is strongly ill advisable to generally suggest law school as a backup plan for anyone who has not expressed a clear interest in being an attorney.

Edited by Guillaume
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 However, towards the end of this thread there seems to be a strong advocacy for law school as a back up plan. I think this is absolutely the wrong sentiment.

 

ianfaircloud, I understand that going to law school may be the right decision for you given your apparent interest in practicing as an attorney, but I believe that it is strongly ill advisable to generally suggest law school as a backup plan for anyone who has not expressed a clear interest in being an attorney.

 

Yeah, OK. I agree with the last statement. But I don't see why the first statement follows from the last statement. 

 

Here's what I say: For people who would prefer academic philosophy to law, but who have some interest in law (either legal academia or law practice), law is a good back-up plan.

 

I think the problem you have with my comments above has more to do with my statement to the effect of, law is a good back-up for someone who "could imagine being an lawyer." 

 

Anyway, I think this thread has been informative and addresses the issues surrounding the original poster's questions about the Duke JD-MA path.

 

EDIT: I should state clearly that I agree with Guillaume's sentiment that too many people in general are going to law school as a back-up plan. That's certainly true. I've been hearing that for years. And if my comments above suggest that law school is a good back-up plan for everyone/anyone/people in general, then my comments are mistaken. That's not what I hoped to communicate!! :)

Edited by ianfaircloud
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I met a couple JD/MA students at Duke when I visited.  They seemed quite happy with the program, and they definitely didn't seem marginalized or anything.  One thing about Duke is that the philosophy department really values interdisciplinary work, so, particularly if you are interested in something related to legal philosophy, they take your perspective very seriously.  I doubt the faculty would have a "JD/MA students come second" attitude.

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Yeah, OK. I agree with the last statement. But I don't see why the first statement follows from the last statement. 

 

Here's what I say: 1) For people who would prefer academic philosophy to law, but who have some interest in law (either legal academia or law practice), law is a good back-up plan.

 

2) I think the problem you have with my comments above has more to do with my statement to the effect of, law is a good back-up for someone who "could imagine being an lawyer." 

 

3) Anyway, I think this thread has been informative and addresses the issues surrounding the original poster's questions about the Duke JD-MA path.

 

EDIT: I should state clearly that I agree with Guillaume's sentiment that 4) too many people in general are going to law school as a back-up plan. That's certainly true. I've been hearing that for years. And if my comments above suggest that law school is a good back-up plan for everyone/anyone/people in general, then my comments are mistaken. That's not what I hoped to communicate!! :)

 

 

1) I'll concede that this might be the right choice for some individuals...just like practicing law is a good choice for some individuals. However, I think, in general, I'm still leaning towards "no" for people who would prefer academic philosophy to law.

 

2) Yes.

 

3) I believe it has.

 

4) Agreed.

 

5) *upvote*

Edited by Guillaume
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1) I'll concede that this might be the right choice for some individuals...just like practicing law is a good choice for some individuals. However, I think, in general, I'm still leaning towards "no" for people who would prefer academic philosophy to law.

 

2) Yes.

 

3) I believe it has.

 

4) Agreed.

 

5) *upvote*

 

When people talk with me about whether to pursue a philosophy degree, I give very different advice based on the person asking. I try to get a read of the person's personality, the depth of interest, and a number of other things.

 

Same probably should go with advice on pursing a law degree. You take a look at a person, gauge the interests, gauge the talent (frequently not possible to do this), etc.

 

But this isn't easily done in the context of a forum. I recall a discussion among members of this forum regarding whether a particular member of this forum should give up pursuit of an advanced degree in philosophy, and there was some controversy whether some of us should give the blunt advice not to pursue this further. After a lot of discussion, it turns out that this person absolutely can't imagine doing anything but philosophy!

 

Good discussion. Good luck to the original poster, too! If you end up at Duke, I'd love to hear what you think. Please send me a message in private.

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